Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265319 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 18:52   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Great find, Karen! That's the sort of substitution we're going to have to
resort to more and more as our toys age.
Thanks to you, and Jim Fawcett,
Ken H.
On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 6:45 PM, KB wrote:
> I just stumbled upon this youtube video about replacing our whole lower
> steering shaft assembly
> with a new fixed shaft and u-joints from Borgeson:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxgtqSMwjgQ
>
> This was posted by Jim Fawcett I think, but I can't find any more info anywhere
> about it.
> Given that we have considerable slop in the splined steering shaft, this
> looks interesting.
>
> Anybody have further leads or information??
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26'
>
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265324 is a reply to message #265322] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 20:23 |
midlf
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Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
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KB wrote on Sun, 02 November 2014 19:53I should correct what I wrote: the new universal shaft in between the two u-joints is a collapsible design, for safety.
On the original steering column, the manual just says it is an "energy absorbing" design and that the bracket that holds it
to the instrument panel is designed to break away. I'm not sure what the original blue plastic coated splined shaft was for
since it doesn't seem like it could collapse much, but maybe other folks can shed more light on that.
Karen
1975 26'
Based on its location and orientation it would appear to be there to compensate for frame to body assembly dimension variations (after all it was 70's vehicle mfring) and to allow movement between the chassis and the body.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265327 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 21:37 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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I like what I see but I haven't figured it out completely. Is there a slip joint somewhere to take up the motion between the body and the frame? Do you order the upper and lower u-joints plus a shaft separately and then assemble? There was some reference to cutting a shaft 14" that I also did not understand.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265328 is a reply to message #265323] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 21:32 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Kerry,
Why is the OEM unit so robust - my guess that it wasn't designed for the GMC and is used in other applications.
You have noted that it will allow to collapse in a crash, will it compensate for the changes in the body to frame distance as you
drive down the road?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
I have the same stuff on my roadster. Good stuff, very precise, robust and NO slop. NONE. The 'collapsible shaft' is the DD
shafting with a nylon pin that shears in an accident to allow it to collapse. The standard slip shafting is very robust, slides
smooth and has NO play. It's more robust that any auto you've ever seen.
Flaming River is another company with similar products. Almost every street rod in the world uses these things.
The more I learn about GMCs, the more I wonder why the OEM unit is so robust. We go from a standard GM steering column shaft to
this big honking thing back to standard size stuff.
The only question in my mind is how Alex will be able to center the boxes? He'll have to make a new fixture. :)
--
Kerry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265330 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 22:04 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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Ken, the double D (DD) shaft consists of a racetrack shaped 'male' shaft and a similar shaped 'female' shaft. Obviously they slide easily together. They are MUCH more robust that the typical steering columns currently in production. They come in several lengths but 18" is the most common, you get a male and female piece and cut to length.
Here is a link to the Borgeson web site. Lots of good info.
http://www.borgeson.com/
YOu can get the Ujoints with any spline I've ever heard of on one end and the same or another on the other OR a DD shaft. It's pretty easy to mix and match to get from whatever to whatever. On my roadster, I went from a 47 Chevy column to a 96 Corvette rack. I had to use a double Ujoint on the rack to make the angle and used a support bearing because there is more than two ujoints. NO play what-so-ever in the linkage. NONE! The ujoints use a very nice needle bearings that are just incredibility smooth. I should have a Ujoint and some DD shafting left over if anyone wants to see it.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265331 is a reply to message #265328] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 22:09 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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USAussie wrote on Sun, 02 November 2014 21:32...You have noted that it will allow to collapse in a crash, will it compensate for the changes in the body to frame distance as you
drive down the road?
Rob, it depends on what you choose. The collapsible stuff is not designed to move unless 'crushed' enough to shear the 1/8" plastic pin. The DD stuff will easily slide through each other and would easily move in/out to compensate for movement between the frame and the steering column/body.
When I was first starting on my roadster the plan was to use a MOPAR column and a Jag front end. I was talking to the Boregson folks at the Street Rod Nationals and was asking them about this spline or that spline and the rep said. "Don't sweat it, we have ujoints that fit EVERYTHING!"
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265334 is a reply to message #265323] |
Sun, 02 November 2014 23:06 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Kerry,
I presume the nylon shear pin does not have to remain intact, so that our
body-frame movement is OK?
I don't see any need for a change in Alex's procedure -- it's primarily
based on the steering box input shaft flat. All the rest is just to align
the wheel with that flat. In fact, this should make it easier since
there's apparently no necessity to align a clamp bolt with a notch.
Ken H.
On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Kerry Pinkerton
wrote:
>
> I have the same stuff on my roadster. Good stuff, very precise, robust
> and NO slop. NONE. The 'collapsible shaft' is the DD shafting with a nylon
> pin that shears in an accident to allow it to collapse. The standard
> slip shafting is very robust, slides smooth and has NO play. It's more
> robust
> that any auto you've ever seen.
>
...
> The only question in my mind is how Alex will be able to center the
> boxes? He'll have to make a new fixture. :)
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265336 is a reply to message #265330] |
Mon, 03 November 2014 01:04 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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Thanks Kerry for the explanation. Now I understand.
1. I see on their web site that the maximum angle on their u-joint is 35 degrees. After that you need a double u-joint. I'm wondering what the angle is on our upper joint.
2. Also they are offering polished shafts. I'm wondering if polishing is something for functionality or strictly for show.
3. When trimming the shafts do you trim the double d ends or the splined ends going into the u-joints?
4. Does the double D connection get lubricated (greased)?
5. Is there some indexing done between the u-joint and the splined shafts of the steering column and the of the steering box? Those splined shafts currently are hollowed out and the clamp bolt only goes in with the collar indexed correctly.
Lots of dumb questions.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
[Updated on: Mon, 03 November 2014 01:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265341 is a reply to message #265330] |
Mon, 03 November 2014 07:23 |
RicksGMC
Messages: 145
Registered: May 2012
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This is exactly what I need to replace on mine (thanks to Alex's inspection), so now I have the choice of the OEM shaft and possibly the CV joint or this type of after-market setup.
I'm going to make my decision based on Performance, Strength, Safety, and Integrity (not necessarily in that order) vs just $$$. What's the opinion of the experienced and knowledgable folks here?
Rick
Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert
> On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:04 PM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
>
> Ken, the double D (DD) shaft consists of a racetrack shaped 'male' shaft and a similar shaped 'female' shaft. Obviously they slide easily together.
> They are MUCH more robust that the typical steering columns currently in production. They come in several lengths but 18" is the most common, you get
> a male and female piece and cut to length.
>
> Here is a link to the Borgeson web site. Lots of good info.
>
> http://www.borgeson.com/
>
> YOu can get the Ujoints with any spline I've ever heard of on one end and the same or another on the other OR a DD shaft. It's pretty easy to mix and
> match to get from whatever to whatever. On my roadster, I went from a 47 Chevy column to a 96 Corvette rack. I had to use a double Ujoint on the
> rack to make the angle and used a support bearing because there is more than two ujoints. NO play what-so-ever in the linkage. NONE! The ujoints
> use a very nice needle bearings that are just incredibility smooth. I should have a Ujoint and some DD shafting left over if anyone wants to see it.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
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Rick
Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265342 is a reply to message #265336] |
Mon, 03 November 2014 08:11 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 01:041. I see on their web site that the maximum angle on their u-joint is 35 degrees. After that you need a double u-joint. I'm wondering what the angle is on our upper joint. I'll try and measure it after while but my eyeball says it's pretty close to 35 degrees. That said, a more compact (shorter) ujoint will lessen the angle.
Below are some left over components from my roadster because I changed things after I had purchased them. Below my finger (for scale) is a double Ujoint. Above is a single Ujoint and you can see the shape of the DD shaft.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p56385-borgeson-components-on.html
Quote:2. Also they are offering polished shafts. I'm wondering if polishing is something for functionality or strictly for show. Show. If your street rod has a big Chevy engine and lots of bling, you're golden.
Quote:3. When trimming the shafts do you trim the double d ends or the splined ends going into the u-joints? Normally you trim the DD.
Quote:4. Does the double D connection get lubricated (greased)? Yes, see the grease zerk in this photo?
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p56389-borgeson-components-on-my-roadster.html
Quote:5. Is there some indexing done between the u-joint and the splined shafts of the steering column and the of the steering box? Those splined shafts currently are hollowed out and the clamp bolt only goes in with the collar indexed correctly.
The Ujoints themselves are indexed so they are 'phased' correctly. That is, it's hard to mess them up.
This is a non stainless (flaming river I think) joint going into the Corvette rack.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p56391-borgeson-components-on-my-roadster.html
Note, on these Ujoints, the attachment is two set screws with jamb nuts. You drill a dimple in the shaft, tighten the set screw, and lock down the jamb nut. Some folks use locktite also....I will.
I don't recall seeing an aftermarket Ujoint with a pin clamp like ours. One other point of information is that the fear of things falling apart isn't really an issue because you build the linkage with very little 'compression' (other than the collapsible link which you treat as a fixed length). That is, there isn't enough in and out movement to allow anything to come out of the Ujoints even if the fastening mechanisms were to fail. For instance, if you want 2" of movement, your shaft needs to have 6" inches of movement. This way, at maximum extension, there is still plenty of 'bearing surface'. That is, you still have plenty of the male/female shafting engaged. On my roadster, I have to loosen my steering column clamps and slide it back in order to remove the steering shaft because I use the collapsible shaft that is fixed length unless there is ever an impact. There are a couple ways to accomplish this. One would be to allow the shaft to collapse enough to assemble both splined ends and then use a bolt to lock one end of the DD shafting to restrict the movement so it can't come out of the splines. Look at the lower end of the female shaft in my photo, you'll see a thru bolt that keeps the shaft at a given minimum length.
On the GMC with splines on both ends there is going to be a challenge to get the, as Alex says, "steering straight". I'd THINK you want to set your box and wheels correct and straight ahead, set your steering wheel straight, then assemble the shaft to the closest splines. Minute steering wheel positions can be done via an adjustable drag link or by tweeking the tie rod ends.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265345 is a reply to message #265342] |
Mon, 03 November 2014 10:46 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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The DD idea would absolutely work if you have the sliding joint option.
If you don't you will mess things up. Probably both the steering box and the steering column.
My coach had a frozen slip joint and I could hear and feel the shaft hammering the steering column on every bump.
I cleaned mine up but thought about the DD option, as Like Kerry I have a street rod with it.
But the U joints are EXPENSIVE as is the shaft. I think if you have a sliding joint you'd want stainless left it get rusty, DD stainless is a whole lotta $$. I think it would be cheaper to just get a new shaft from Jim K
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265352 is a reply to message #265345] |
Mon, 03 November 2014 12:12 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
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Keith V wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 10:46
But the U joints are EXPENSIVE as is the shaft. I think if you have a sliding joint you'd want stainless left it get rusty, DD stainless is a whole lotta $$. I think it would be cheaper to just get a new shaft from Jim K
Fawcett parts 239
GMC supplier replacement 600
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265357 is a reply to message #265345] |
Mon, 03 November 2014 13:10 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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Keith V wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 10:46T... I think if you have a sliding joint you'd want stainless left it get rusty, DD stainless is a whole lotta $$. ...
The original wasn't stainless and hasn't really deteriorated that much. I'd think some good paint would do it. I'd probably drill a through hole through the bottom of the Ujoint and the DD shaft and insert a bolt just to be sure it can't fall out if the set screws somehow let go.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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