| Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262237] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 12:58  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Testing the Onan it started normally then screaming gears sound as if starter still engaged. I had stared on remote but pulled drawer to shudown. Niot sure if remote wiring, sticky relay on board or just stuck starter solenoid or drive. I want to pull strater to inspect clean lube. Are there just 2 bolts at bottom or some hidden. Bracket not broke at first look
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262245 is a reply to message #262237] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 14:27  |
Jim Miller
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Registered: March 2008
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This is a pretty frantic situation...however it is a great troubleshooting opportunity:
While the gears are screaming pull the "S" wire off the starter solenoid as soon as you can (it is the small diameter wire and attached with a push-on terminal):
If the gnashing stops at the instant you pull the wire off then you have a controls problem. The odds are: 98% chance it is the control board, 1% chance it is the slave solenoid below the board, 1% chance there's a wiring issue somewhere in the harness or remote start switch.
if the gnashing does NOT stop then you have a mechanical problem in the starter. Try to shut down the engine via whatever means you can - push the "STOP" button, or if that doesn't work then pull the points wire off the coil or try to strangle it by manually engaging the choke linkage.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Sep 18, 2014, at 1:58 PM, John R.Lebetski wrote:
> Testing the Onan it started normally then screaming gears sound as if starter still engaged. I had stared on remote but pulled drawer to shudown.
> Niot sure if remote wiring, sticky relay on board or just stuck starter solenoid or drive. I want to pull strater to inspect clean lube. Are there
> just 2 bolts at bottom or some hidden. Bracket not broke at first look
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262247 is a reply to message #262237] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 14:41 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Unfortunately we have "an intermittant intermittant". It's working fine now after that excercise. i think ckoke and closed throttle if it hapoens again after doing your test . Can I drop the starter with just those 2 bolts or are there more? At first the stop on the unit didn't work either so we cant narrow it down other than not just an open to the remote.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262252 is a reply to message #262247] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 15:23 |
Jim Miller
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Registered: March 2008
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Started once but starter didn't disengage?
Then the stop button on the board didn't work?
Intermittent behavior?
All three facts point to a failed control board. Is it the original?
There are two bolts in the starter, both are easy to access.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:41 PM, John R.Lebetski wrote:
> Unfortunately we have "an intermittant intermittant". It's working fine now after that excercise. i think ckoke and closed throttle if it hapoens
> again after doing your test . Can I drop the starter with just those 2 bolts or are there more? At first the stop on the unit didn't work either so we
> cant narrow it down other than not just an open to the remote.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262262 is a reply to message #262237] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 17:32 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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It wouldn't malfunction after that first ever sticking after 2 months sitting. I pulled the starter, flushed the nose area with WD40 and put a light film of synpower on the sliding area. I also flushed the board with D5 Deoxit and blew off with air. Exercised all the connections. I think it's an Onan board. Do Dinosaur boards say so somewhere? Anyway works fine inside and out. Thanks
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262263 is a reply to message #262237] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 17:37 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Also is that slave solenoid because there is no contactor in the starter solenoid. Like a Ford not a typical GM?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262265 is a reply to message #262263] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 18:12 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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The starter solenoid does indeed have a traditional switch contact that carries battery+ to the motor brushes.
I do not know the exact reason(s) why they used a slave to drive the starter other than to perhaps reduce the size of the start relay on the control board as well as to eliminate the need for a flyback-pulse snubber circuit. There are many many turns in that starter solenoid and the instant the circuit opens there will be quite a wallop coming back toward the control system.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Sep 18, 2014, at 6:37 PM, John R.Lebetski wrote:
> Also is that slave solenoid because there is no contactor in the starter solenoid. Like a Ford not a typical GM?
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262271 is a reply to message #262265] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 19:00 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Jim,
Duane Simmons and I both disassembled K1's and found a small braided strap
from the contact disc to the output contact. The only reason either of us
could conceive of for the existence of that was to make it an Onan-unique
part. Do you have a better idea?
(It's the light gray line between the left terminal and the floating
contact on K1 in this diagram:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/5813/KH_Onan_Wiring1.pdf )
Ken H.
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> The starter solenoid does indeed have a traditional switch contact that
> carries battery+ to the motor brushes.
>
> I do not know the exact reason(s) why they used a slave to drive the
> starter other than to perhaps reduce the size of the start relay on the
> control board as well as to eliminate the need for a flyback-pulse snubber
> circuit. There are many many turns in that starter solenoid and the
> instant the circuit opens there will be quite a wallop coming back toward
> the control system.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262278 is a reply to message #262271] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 20:30 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 18 September 2014 19:00Jim,
Duane Simmons and I both disassembled K1's and found a small braided strap
from the contact disc to the output contact. The only reason either of us
could conceive of for the existence of that was to make it an Onan-unique
part. Do you have a better idea?
(It's the light gray line between the left terminal and the floating
contact on K1 in this diagram:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/5813/KH_Onan_Wiring1.pdf )
Ken H.
What am I missing here? I can not see how that jumper accomplishes anything.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262280 is a reply to message #262278] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 20:46 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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As Duane and I concluded, it makes the item unique. :-)
Ken H.
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:30 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 18 September 2014 19:00
>> Jim,
>>
>> Duane Simmons and I both disassembled K1's and found a small braided
> strap
>> from the contact disc to the output contact. The only reason either of
> us
>> could conceive of for the existence of that was to make it an
> Onan-unique
>> part. Do you have a better idea?
>>
>> (It's the light gray line between the left terminal and the floating
>> contact on K1 in this diagram:
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/5813/KH_Onan_Wiring1.pdf )
>>
>> Ken H.
>
> What am I missing here? I can not see how that jumper accomplishes
> anything.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262286 is a reply to message #262271] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 21:31 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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Hi Ken,
It is difficult to speculate as to why the braid strap is used without seeing it in person.
Thinking aloud:
Perhaps it is there to provide a low-impedance path across the solenoid armature-to-contact-plate linkage to prevent internal arcing? And thus to eliminate the need for a more-expensive / less-reliable plastic insulated linkage?
Or perhaps it is to provide a high-impedance path to snub the flyback pulse at the moment the high-current contact opens and prevent arcing between the contact surfaces?
Was the strap made out of copper?
I find it difficult to believe it was put there for no other reason than to make the part proprietary. There are easier ways to achieve that!
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Sep 18, 2014, at 8:00 PM, Ken Henderson wrote:
> Duane Simmons and I both disassembled K1's and found a small braided strap
> from the contact disc to the output contact. The only reason either of us
> could conceive of for the existence of that was to make it an Onan-unique
> part. Do you have a better idea?
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262288 is a reply to message #262286] |
Thu, 18 September 2014 21:46 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I've always suspected it was intended as an arc suppressor, but can't
figure out how it would work -- especially if I have it drawn to the
correct terminal (of which I can't be sure now).
Just wanted to share the mystery -- I've long since quit losing sleep over
it. :-)
Ken H.
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
> It is difficult to speculate as to why the braid strap is used without
> seeing it in person.
>
> Thinking aloud:
>
> Perhaps it is there to provide a low-impedance path across the solenoid
> armature-to-contact-plate linkage to prevent internal arcing? And thus to
> eliminate the need for a more-expensive / less-reliable plastic insulated
> linkage?
>
> Or perhaps it is to provide a high-impedance path to snub the flyback
> pulse at the moment the high-current contact opens and prevent arcing
> between the contact surfaces?
>
> Was the strap made out of copper?
>
> I find it difficult to believe it was put there for no other reason than
> to make the part proprietary. There are easier ways to achieve that!
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Onan6k starter bolt count [message #262299 is a reply to message #262237] |
Fri, 19 September 2014 07:28 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I suspect that's an arc quench. My high current transfer switches have similar designs - weird shaped pieces of metal around the contacts.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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