Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Onan woes (A man has to know his limitations.)
Onan woes [message #260841] |
Wed, 03 September 2014 20:28 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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I've been pestering Dr. Ken H with Onan questions for a couple weeks now. Kind of a long story.
The Onan ran pretty good. It had a prime switch inside that didn't appear to do anything.
When Rob Mueller was here we decided to install my Bovee Pertronics kit. The FIRST thing we did was make sure it started and ran OK and we did this FROM THE ONAN BOARD BY PUSHING THE START button. The only other thing we did was disconnect the switched ground from the points. We also investigated the prime button and found a fuse holder with no fuse it in. Once we put in a fuse, the prime light came on and pushing the button caused the fuel pump to work. YEAH!
When the Pertronics module was working and hooked up correctly, I pushed the start button. NOTHING. Not a click, not a sound. NOTHING. So I start looking at things. Jump 5-9 and the fuel pump runs. Ground the S terminal on the starter solenoid K1 and nothing happens. Jump 12V from the 12 Lug to the spade lug beside it and the starter cranks. Humm, bad KI.
That and the start switch not working (no measured ground to the S terminal on K1, it appears that BOTH the starter solenoid AND the circuit board are sick. By this time, it's last Friday and I managed to get in touch with Nick at Applied and he shipped out a new board and solenoid.
In the meantime, Ken told me he had opened up the solenoids before and so I did and once I cleaned off some corrosion, it was working. Yea! So I put it back on and now I can jump to ground on the S terminal and the motor will crank. About this time, I realized that the INSIDE start button would crank the motor but it would only start if 5-9 was jumpered (fuel pump running) and only stop if the jumper was removed.
So today the boards came in and I put the new board in first thing. Expecting the motor to fire right up, I was a bit confused and disappointed when NOTHING happened. I can still ground the S terminal on K1 and it will turn over. There are no lugs on the new board and I was unable to get 5-9 jumped. So I replaced the old board and fired it up...only to have it running like crap. Turns out the rear plug wasn't firing. On a hunch, I replaced the plugs and it runs fine.
Oh, I took the fuse out of the 'prime' button because that was the ONLY thing that Rob and I did.
So here is the situation. I've gone from an Onan that run fine, to one that runs fine but has to be jumpered to make run and will only start from inside. At this point, I'm about out of time and don't want to fix it until it won't run at all .
The plan is that we won't need it on the way to Wisconsin. If so, I'll have to set the jumper, run back inside and start it, the go back outside to shut it off. Not optimal but we shouldn't need it on the trip.
I'm HOPING that some of the Onan gurus like Ken Burton, Ken Henderson, and others TBD can help me get it worked out at the Rally. U am pretty confused that the new board didn't work. It is the version with the built in wiring harness and the connector will only go one way.
I passed my level of electronics knowledge about a week back.
Thoughts or comments are welcome but, as I said, I don't have much more time to devote to it if I expect to get my punch list completed.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: Onan woes [message #260844 is a reply to message #260841] |
Wed, 03 September 2014 21:13 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508 Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Wed, 03 September 2014 20:28I've been pestering Dr. Ken H with Onan questions for a couple weeks now. Kind of a long story.
The Onan ran pretty good. It had a prime switch inside that didn't appear to do anything.
When Rob Mueller was here we decided to install my Bovee Pertronics kit. The FIRST thing we did was make sure it started and ran OK and we did this FROM THE ONAN BOARD BY PUSHING THE START button. The only other thing we did was disconnect the switched ground from the points. We also investigated the prime button and found a fuse holder with no fuse it in. Once we put in a fuse, the prime light came on and pushing the button caused the fuel pump to work. YEAH!
When the Pertronics module was working and hooked up correctly, I pushed the start button. NOTHING. Not a click, not a sound. NOTHING. So I start looking at things. Jump 5-9 and the fuel pump runs. Ground the S terminal on the starter solenoid K1 and nothing happens. Jump 12V from the 12 Lug to the spade lug beside it and the starter cranks. Humm, bad KI.
That and the start switch not working (no measured ground to the S terminal on K1, it appears that BOTH the starter solenoid AND the circuit board are sick. By this time, it's last Friday and I managed to get in touch with Nick at Applied and he shipped out a new board and solenoid.
In the meantime, Ken told me he had opened up the solenoids before and so I did and once I cleaned off some corrosion, it was working. Yea! So I put it back on and now I can jump to ground on the S terminal and the motor will crank. About this time, I realized that the INSIDE start button would crank the motor but it would only start if 5-9 was jumpered (fuel pump running) and only stop if the jumper was removed.
So today the boards came in and I put the new board in first thing. Expecting the motor to fire right up, I was a bit confused and disappointed when NOTHING happened. I can still ground the S terminal on K1 and it will turn over. There are no lugs on the new board and I was unable to get 5-9 jumped. So I replaced the old board and fired it up...only to have it running like crap. Turns out the rear plug wasn't firing. On a hunch, I replaced the plugs and it runs fine.
Oh, I took the fuse out of the 'prime' button because that was the ONLY thing that Rob and I did.
So here is the situation. I've gone from an Onan that run fine, to one that runs fine but has to be jumpered to make run and will only start from inside. At this point, I'm about out of time and don't want to fix it until it won't run at all .
The plan is that we won't need it on the way to Wisconsin. If so, I'll have to set the jumper, run back inside and start it, the go back outside to shut it off. Not optimal but we shouldn't need it on the trip.
I'm HOPING that some of the Onan gurus like Ken Burton, Ken Henderson, and others TBD can help me get it worked out at the Rally. U am pretty confused that the new board didn't work. It is the version with the built in wiring harness and the connector will only go one way.
I passed my level of electronics knowledge about a week back.
Thoughts or comments are welcome but, as I said, I don't have much more time to devote to it if I expect to get my punch list completed. Jumper pin 6 to pin 9 instead of 5 to 9.
Per Duane Simmons:
"Relatively unknown method is pin 6. This disables the generator running and low oil pressure functions but maintains BOTH the start AND STOP functions of the board. As the lower pin 6 is right next to pin 9, a short one inch jumper can be left in place with the cover on and genset pushed back in the "Onan-hole." Be aware that if you try to start the generator but it doesn't start, there will still be power to the pump and ignition until you press "stop." While all methods keep the power on pin 9, it is just easier to forget without a wire hanging off the generator."
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #260862 is a reply to message #260859] |
Thu, 04 September 2014 06:46 |
Jim at the Co-op
Messages: 291 Registered: May 2014 Location: Orlando Florida
Karma: 2
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The system is "ground to start, ground to stop". Pins 1,2,3 at the top of
the board are the wires that do this. #1 is ground. Jump 1 to 3 (I think
3 is start, may be 2 but whatever) ground one of them and the generator
should try to start. Now since you are there, jump the big terminal on the
starter that is 12 volts + to the + side of the coil, you should hear the
electric fuel pump start to run. With that jumper on, jump #1 to whatever
2 or 3 and see if the generator will fire. If so, let it run @ 30 seconds
or so then remove the jumper to the coil. Does it dye? With that test, we
can make some decisions on which way to go.
In many cases (maybe not here because you said it ran nice before) but we
sometimes run into a generator that has been hacked, pressure washed,
critter eaten or more. In that case I take the board and the entire system
out and run the things on a manual system with 1 bosch relay. Only deal is
no low oil shut down-- if you are not leaking oil, burning oil -- chances
are the unit will run all day if you check the oil level before you fire
it. I have many coaches out there running "brainless". Time is money,
parts are money heck just looking at the thing causes burns on my retinas
so when I come up against seemingly never ending roadblocks-- I rip the
road up!
The same block used in the Power Drawer was used in a Sears lawn tractor--
Nelson W. has one. Hey, it's just a motor, give it fuel & fire and she
will run. It's a "dead fire" motor which means 180 degrees out in timing
is in time! Why not make the rest of the generator as simple as the motor
is...
Jim Bounds
--------------------------
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 5:14 AM, gene Fisher wrote:
> Yes sis this is the secret (9-5) button, I am going to talk about at the
> Manteca rally
> http://gmc49ers.blogspot.com
>
> Erf
>
> On Wednesday, September 3, 2014, Billy Massey wrote:
>
>> See if it'll start while you hold the prime button down.
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #260872 is a reply to message #260862] |
Thu, 04 September 2014 11:08 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508 Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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This would be a good item for a FAQ.
Note: Pins 1 to 6 have two pins each, one across the top to connect to the remote and another down lower, mixed in with the rest of the stuff.
Pin 1 is ground for the board. it is also connected to the remote, providing a ground to the remote switch.
Pin 2 is the input to the board for the remote stop function. Grounding this pin cause the board to shut off the generator.
Pin 3 is the input to the board for the remote start function. Grounding this pin cause the board to start the generator.
Pin 4 doesn't seem to be used in our application. Looks like another input into the same circuits that the oil pressure switch connect to.
Pin 5 is FUSED 12 volts from the battery.
Pin 6 has 12volts (fused) only when the generator is running.
Pin 7 is the ground side of the coil of the start solenoid. Grounding this point should cause the starter to engage.
Pin 8 is an A/C "generator running" input to the board from the flywheel alternator. (The other side of this AC signal is pin 5.) It disengages the starter and "latches" the voltage provided to pin 9.
Pin 9 is the output of the board to BOTH the ignition and the fuel pump. If there is voltage here, the pump should be running and the points/coil should have power.
Pin 10 has 12volts from the starter solenoid when the starter is engaged. It provides power to pin 9 when starting.
Pin 11 is UN-FUSED 12 volts from the battery.
Pin 12 is the input of the board from the oil pressure switch. The switch applies a ground when there isn't oil pressure. Just disconnecting this pin disables the function.
NOW for the methods of jumping (bypassing):
The main differences in jumping is where the power comes from, all of them connect to pin 9 (electrically the same point as the + side of the coil, the fuel pump and the fuel shut-off solenoid):
Method 1.) Some jump from pin 11 but it is better to use fused power on pin 5. If pin 11 works but pin 5 does not, look at the fuse.
Method 2.) The most popular spot is pin 5. You still use the button on the board to get the starter to turn. But you need to un-jumper the pins to turn off the generator.
Method 3.) Relatively unknown method is pin 6. This disables the generator running and low oil pressure functions but maintains BOTH the start AND STOP functions of the board. As the lower pin 6 is right next to pin 9, a short one inch jumper can be left in place with the cover on and genset pushed back in the "Onan-hole." Be aware that if you try to start the generator but it doesn't start, there will still be power to the pump and ignition until you press "stop." While all methods keep the power on pin 9, it is just easier to forget without a wire hanging off the generator.
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #260877 is a reply to message #260872] |
Thu, 04 September 2014 12:14 |
Jim at the Co-op
Messages: 291 Registered: May 2014 Location: Orlando Florida
Karma: 2
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Nice, my problem is I know what to do when I get to one, quickly evaluate
if it's even worth the time to mess with it and make the best economic
decision that I can and move on. I have found when an original Power
Drawer gets picky-- runs, stops, pops and gurgles it's really not going to
be reliable enough for my customers so I yank them out. If you want
something to throw your frustrations at a picky Onan generator is a good
one! Here lately several people have picked up a Honda EV-6010 and are
well on the way to spend good money for better reliability. If it will run
for me and make power in 30 minutes I'l spend time with it if not--- OFF
with his head!!!!
Jim Bounds
--------------------
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 12:08 PM, A. wrote:
> This would be a good item for a FAQ.
>
> Note: Pins 1 to 6 have two pins each, one across the top to connect to the
> remote and another down lower, mixed in with the rest of the stuff.
>
> Pin 1 is ground for the board. it is also connected to the remote,
> providing a ground to the remote switch.
>
> Pin 2 is the input to the board for the remote stop function. Grounding
> this pin cause the board to shut off the generator.
>
> Pin 3 is the input to the board for the remote start function. Grounding
> this pin cause the board to start the generator.
>
> Pin 4 doesn't seem to be used in our application. Looks like another input
> into the same circuits that the oil pressure switch connect to.
>
> Pin 5 is FUSED 12 volts from the battery.
>
> Pin 6 has 12volts (fused) only when the generator is running.
>
> Pin 7 is the ground side of the coil of the start solenoid. Grounding this
> point should cause the starter to engage.
>
> Pin 8 is an A/C "generator running" input to the board from the flywheel
> alternator. (The other side of this AC signal is pin 5.) It disengages the
> starter and "latches" the voltage provided to pin 9.
>
> Pin 9 is the output of the board to BOTH the ignition and the fuel pump.
> If there is voltage here, the pump should be running and the points/coil
> should have power.
>
> Pin 10 has 12volts from the starter solenoid when the starter is engaged.
> It provides power to pin 9 when starting.
>
> Pin 11 is UN-FUSED 12 volts from the battery.
>
> Pin 12 is the input of the board from the oil pressure switch. The switch
> applies a ground when there isn't oil pressure. Just disconnecting this pin
> disables the function.
>
> NOW for the methods of jumping (bypassing):
>
> The main differences in jumping is where the power comes from, all of them
> connect to pin 9 (electrically the same point as the + side of the coil,
> the fuel pump and the fuel shut-off solenoid):
>
> Method 1.) Some jump from pin 11 but it is better to use fused power on
> pin 5. If pin 11 works but pin 5 does not, look at the fuse.
>
> Method 2.) The most popular spot is pin 5. You still use the button on the
> board to get the starter to turn. But you need to un-jumper the pins to
> turn off the generator.
>
> Method 3.) Relatively unknown method is pin 6. This disables the generator
> running and low oil pressure functions but maintains BOTH the start AND
> STOP functions of the board. As the lower pin 6 is right next to pin 9, a
> short one inch jumper can be left in place with the cover on and genset
> pushed back in the "Onan-hole." Be aware that if you try to start the
> generator but it doesn't start, there will still be power to the pump and
> ignition until you press "stop." While all methods keep the power on pin
> 9, it is just easier to forget without a wire hanging off the generator.
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> Upper Alabama
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #260980 is a reply to message #260872] |
Fri, 05 September 2014 12:34 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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A Hamilto wrote on Thu, 04 September 2014 11:08... Relatively unknown method is pin 6. This disables the generator running and low oil pressure functions but maintains BOTH the start AND STOP functions of the board. As the lower pin 6 is right next to pin 9, a short one inch jumper can be left in place with the cover on and genset pushed back in the "Onan-hole." Be aware that if you try to start the generator but it doesn't start, there will still be power to the pump and ignition until you press "stop." While all methods keep the power on pin 9, it is just easier to forget without a wire hanging off the generator.
6-9 still runs the fuel pump and would have to be manually hooked up every time.
HOWEVER, Bdub had a suggestion to see if it ran if the prime button was held down. It does run as long as the prime button is held down. I could easily change the momentary prime button to a on/off switch and not have to go to the drawer.
HOWEVER, I noticed something odd, If I press the stop button while the Onan is still running, the red light in the switch comes on AND the Onan keeps running. What the heck is that about????
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #260990 is a reply to message #260981] |
Fri, 05 September 2014 13:51 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508 Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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A Hamilto wrote on Fri, 05 September 2014 12:39Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Fri, 05 September 2014 12:346-9 still runs the fuel pump and would have to be manually hooked up every time.
HOWEVER, Bdub had a suggestion to see if it ran if the prime button was held down. It does run as long as the prime button is held down. I could easily change the momentary prime button to a on/off switch and not have to go to the drawer.
HOWEVER, I noticed something odd, If I press the stop button while the Onan is still running, the red light in the switch comes on AND the Onan keeps running. What the heck is that about???? Dunno. With pin 6 to 9, the fuel pump and ignition are supposed to shut off when you hit the stop switch. They come on when you hit the start switch. The intent was to save you from running back and forth to do the jumpering. With 6 to 9, you should be able to use the remote start and stop switches and leave the jumper in place. You just don't have the LOP protection and what not. I thought about it a little bit. The stop switch is supposed to cause the board to remove power from the fuel pump and remove power from the ignition system. If you hold down the stop button long enough for the carb bowl to drain and it stops, then the board IS shutting off the fuel pump. If the Onan does not stop after what should be enough time to drain the carb bowl, the board is NOT shutting off the fuel pump. Either way, the board is not shutting off the ignition. At least not from the switch you are using. Since you have a new board, maybe there is a connection problem somewhere
Also notice that one reference I saw said connect pin 2 of the board to pin 3 of the remote start/stop switch, and pin 3 of the board to pin 2 of the remote start/stop switch. Has something to do with the remote panel innards. It appears to me that if you get them backwards, the stop switch would work for starting and the start switch would work for stopping. What happens when you press the stop switch when it is not running?
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #261019 is a reply to message #260980] |
Fri, 05 September 2014 18:07 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Fri, 05 September 2014 13:346-9 still runs the fuel pump and would have to be manually hooked up every time.
HOWEVER, Bdub had a suggestion to see if it ran if the prime button was held down. It does run as long as the prime button is held down. I could easily change the momentary prime button to a on/off switch and not have to go to the drawer.
HOWEVER, I noticed something odd, If I press the stop button while the Onan is still running, the red light in the switch comes on AND the Onan keeps running. What the heck is that about????
Kerry,
I would love to joint this thread longer, but I have to get dressed to go out. Maybe I will write between tips.
Have you ever located and patch the wires to the start/stop that lie on the floor of the generator space??
That could be your stop issue, and it could be some of the problem with all the rest also.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #261022 is a reply to message #260985] |
Fri, 05 September 2014 18:52 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Billy,
What you are doing by holding the prime button in is providing +12 volts to the ignition, and the fuel pump. Under normal conditions (without the prime button pushed) that +12 is provided by the board because you have the start button pressed. After starting a different circuit takes over keeps the +12 there as long as the engine is running and you have oil pressure.
Sometimes that second circuit is slow to energize and the engine dies. That second circuit is powered by the the internal alternator and some times is slow to energize. So by holding the prime button down you are simply giving the second circuit more time to energize and take over supplying the +12 to the fuel pump and ignition.
This slowness is caused either by lower that expected voltage coming out of the alternator or more commonly changing values on some of the components of the K2 relay coil circuit on the board. Mine has done the same thing for years and I'm too lazy to go fix the board. I just hold the button down for a couple of extra seconds to cover up for the slow relay pick up time.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: Onan woes [message #261079 is a reply to message #261076] |
Sat, 06 September 2014 14:25 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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The first thing I would check is for 29 or 30 volts AC coming out of the Onan internal battery charging alternator. The board uses that voltage to determine if the engine is running. If it is low or non-existent then suspect the battery charging voltage regulator. Put a meter across pins 5 and 8 on the board to read the 29 or 30 volts AC. Then start the engine with 5 and 9 jumpered and while you read the voltage.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan woes [message #261163 is a reply to message #261079] |
Sun, 07 September 2014 08:42 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I had him do that a week or more ago -- plenty of voltage & 17 VDC across
the coil, IIRC; it should close at about 10 VDC.
We've been over & over all the obvious checks, with no luck. And he's
checked continuity on all the wires. I think we're going to have to have a
hands-on Onan-bang in WI.
Ken H.
On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> The first thing I would check is for 29 or 30 volts AC coming out of the
> Onan internal battery charging alternator. The board uses that voltage to
> determine if the engine is running. If it is low or non-existent then
> suspect the battery charging voltage regulator. Put a meter across pins 5
> and
> 8 on the board to read the 29 or 30 volts AC. Then start the engine with
> 5 and 9 jumpered and while you read the voltage.
>
>
> --
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