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[GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258071] Thu, 07 August 2014 13:54 Go to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
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Let me start out by saying I don't recommend doing this. Systems that were engineered for R12 traditionally do not perform well with R134. In some cases, it works but most of the time the condenser is too small, the fan is insufficient and an already tired compressor usually quits under the extra load. Some of the other problems is that when R134 is introduced to mineral oil (R12 oil) it turns to jello. This can happen in a place where not much is effected or it can cause a real problem. R134 is also made of smaller particles and can find a smaller leak.
Having said all that, here's your concerns and procedures. First you have to remove as much of the old oils as possible. That usually means removing compressors and flushing condensers and other components. An additional condenser fan will improve things. You need to charge the system with preferably "ester" oil which is compatable with both R12 and R134. Charge the system with about 75% of the original capacity of refrigerant and hope for the best. In other words if you had 3.5 pounds of R12 you would use 2.6 pounds of R134a. If you use 3.5 pounds you will be say overfilled

The R134a will give you about 10% less cooling than the R12.

I really suggest that you dump the R 134a and fill with three 6 oz. cans of Duracool (HC 12a). You'll have about 20% better cooling than the R134a and it will be compatible with whatever oil is in the system.

Your compressor high side pressure will be about 100psi or more lower. This will give less load on the engine and less wear on the system. It also will be less prone to leaking past the clutch seal as the molecule size is much larger than R12 or R134a.

Emery Stira
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Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258076 is a reply to message #258071] Thu, 07 August 2014 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mickey szilagyi is currently offline  mickey szilagyi   United States
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Emery, and everyone else too.

As in another post we don't know what system we have, R12 or 134A. We will check to see what ports we have. But since Duracool can go into either system can't we just put three cans of Duracool in our system and see what happens? Can we get Duracool into an R12 port? Worst that could happen is it leaks out. What harm could trying this do?

Thanks!



Mickey 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258080 is a reply to message #258076] Thu, 07 August 2014 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith V is currently offline  Keith V   United States
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Emery you recommend ester oil.
What about PAG oil? I thought PAG was the one compatible with both R12 and 134.


Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258082 is a reply to message #258076] Thu, 07 August 2014 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sammy Williams is currently offline  Sammy Williams   United States
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Hello:
If you have a GMC Mortorhome, you have an R12 system. R134a wasn't mandated
for use until 1994, LONG AFTER the last GMC motorhome left the plant in
1978.

As for previous owners, if they converted the unit to r134a, the connectors
WILL BE different on the fittings. The R12 fittings and R134 fittings are
different.You can tell, just by looking.

Sammy WIlliams
1978 GMC (its in SC and im here...) lol


On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Mickey Szilagyi
wrote:

> Emery, and everyone else too.
>
> As in another post we don't know what system we have, R12 or 134A. We
> will check to see what ports we have. But since Duracool can go into either
> system can't we just put three cans of Duracool in our system and see what
> happens? Can we get Duracool into an R12 port? Worst that could happen is
> it leaks out. What harm could trying this do?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --
> Mickey
> 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258083 is a reply to message #258076] Thu, 07 August 2014 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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You can install Duracool into an R-12 port IF you have the right adapters. There is a technical legality when doing this. The best thing to do it install the R-134 fitting adapters on your r-12 fittings and charge it with standard R-134 hoses. The adapters are, or have been available, at Walmart and AutoZone for less than $10.00 .

If all of the existing refrigerant is gone then you need to pull a vacuum on the system and maybe replace the dryer depending on how long it has been empty of refrigerant. If you can not hold the vacuum then you need to go find and fix the item(s) that are leaking.

3 cans is a bit too much on a standard GMC. DO NOT over charge the system. I would use Emery's numbers of 20-22 PSI on the low side at 1500 RPM with the AC and fan set to maximum. That will probably happen at around 2.5+ cans

More refrigerant and higher pressure is NOT a good thing. The higher the pressure the warmer the AC will run. The reason we use the 20-22 number is that makes the refrigerant cool the evaporator at just above freezing (32F).



Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258090 is a reply to message #258071] Thu, 07 August 2014 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
Senior Member
emerystora wrote on Thu, 07 August 2014 12:54
Let me start out by saying I don't recommend doing this. Systems that were engineered for R12 traditionally do not perform well with R134. In some cases, it works but most of the time the condenser is too small, the fan is insufficient and an already tired compressor usually quits under the extra load. Some of the other problems is that when R134 is introduced to mineral oil (R12 oil) it turns to jello. This can happen in a place where not much is effected or it can cause a real problem. R134 is also made of smaller particles and can find a smaller leak.
Having said all that, here's your concerns and procedures. First you have to remove as much of the old oils as possible. That usually means removing compressors and flushing condensers and other components. An additional condenser fan will improve things. You need to charge the system with preferably "ester" oil which is compatable with both R12 and R134. Charge the system with about 75% of the original capacity of refrigerant and hope for the best. In other words if you had 3.5 pounds of R12 you would use 2.6 pounds of R134a. If you use 3.5 pounds you will be say overfilled

The R134a will give you about 10% less cooling than the R12.

I really suggest that you dump the R 134a and fill with three 6 oz. cans of Duracool (HC 12a). You'll have about 20% better cooling than the R134a and it will be compatible with whatever oil is in the system.

Your compressor high side pressure will be about 100psi or more lower. This will give less load on the engine and less wear on the system. It also will be less prone to leaking past the clutch seal as the molecule size is much larger than R12 or R134a.

Emery Stira
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Emery--most of us spell your name wrong but I've never seen you misspell it yourself Smile


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258100 is a reply to message #258076] Thu, 07 August 2014 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
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Registered: January 2004
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Senior Member
You can easily put Duracool (HC12a) into a R12 port. Other than the standard R12 gauges all you would need is a way to get it from the Duracool can to the R12 port. The can has a screw on fitting on the top that fits a R134a hose. I purchased a hose that had the can fitting on one end with a valve and an R12 fitting on the other end. There are also R12 hoses that clamp onto the side of any type of can and puncture the can.

I bought my adapter and my Duracool here:

http://www.bennettsupply.net/cart/

You can but the three can kit with the hose or just the hose alone. Be sure you get the R12 hose and not the R134a hose.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

On Aug 7, 2014, at 1:47 PM, Mickey Szilagyi wrote:

> Emery, and everyone else too.
>
> As in another post we don't know what system we have, R12 or 134A. We will check to see what ports we have. But since Duracool can go into either
> system can't we just put three cans of Duracool in our system and see what happens? Can we get Duracool into an R12 port? Worst that could happen is
> it leaks out. What harm could trying this do?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --
> Mickey
> 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258101 is a reply to message #258090] Thu, 07 August 2014 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
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Registered: January 2004
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Senior Member
Oops! That is from typing my reply on my iPhone instead of on the computer. The I and O are right next to each other and the keys are smaller than my finger tip.

Emery Stora

On Aug 7, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Bob de Kruyff wrote:

> emerystora wrote on Thu, 07 August 2014 12:54
>> Let me start out by saying I don't recommend doing this. Systems that were engineered for R12 traditionally do not perform well with R134. In some
>> cases, it works but most of the time the condenser is too small, the fan is insufficient and an already tired compressor usually quits under the
>> extra load. Some of the other problems is that when R134 is introduced to mineral oil (R12 oil) it turns to jello. This can happen in a place where
>> not much is effected or it can cause a real problem. R134 is also made of smaller particles and can find a smaller leak.
>> Having said all that, here's your concerns and procedures. First you have to remove as much of the old oils as possible. That usually means
>> removing compressors and flushing condensers and other components. An additional condenser fan will improve things. You need to charge the system
>> with preferably "ester" oil which is compatable with both R12 and R134. Charge the system with about 75% of the original capacity of refrigerant and
>> hope for the best. In other words if you had 3.5 pounds of R12 you would use 2.6 pounds of R134a. If you use 3.5 pounds you will be say overfilled
>>
>>
>> The R134a will give you about 10% less cooling than the R12.
>>
>> I really suggest that you dump the R 134a and fill with three 6 oz. cans of Duracool (HC 12a). You'll have about 20% better cooling than the R134a
>> and it will be compatible with whatever oil is in the system.
>>
>> Your compressor high side pressure will be about 100psi or more lower. This will give less load on the engine and less wear on the system. It
>> also will be less prone to leaking past the clutch seal as the molecule size is much larger than R12 or R134a.
>>
>> Emery Stira
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> Emery--most of us spell your name wrong but I've never seen you misspell it yourself :)
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258102 is a reply to message #258080] Thu, 07 August 2014 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
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I said ester because he said that he already had 134A in the system. I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that they had replaced the oil with ester oil.
If one is converting from R12 which has mineral oil in it already there is no need to change the oil.
Duracool is compatible with either. You cannot add ester oil unless you complete drain and flush all mineral oil. This would also require changing the receiver/drier.

Emery Stora

On Aug 7, 2014, at 1:56 PM, Keith V wrote:

> Emery you recommend ester oil.
> What about PAG oil? I thought PAG was the one compatible with both R12 and 134.
> --
> Keith
> 69 Vette
> 29 Dodge
> 75 Royale GMC
> Mounds View. MN
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Re: [GMCnet] R134a conversion [message #258110 is a reply to message #258102] Thu, 07 August 2014 18:22 Go to previous message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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emerystora wrote on Thu, 07 August 2014 17:11
...You cannot add ester oil unless you complete drain and flush all mineral oil. This would also require changing the receiver/drier.
Emery Stora
Probably best. However...

http://gmcmotorhome.info/heat.html#134
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