Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? (upper half rebuild)
Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254546] |
Sun, 06 July 2014 17:36 |
budworks521
Messages: 137 Registered: October 2013 Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
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I have been trying to get a GMC 455 running right. I finally obtained a timing light and found my timing was about 16 degrees TDC at idle and parked. I reduced it to 10 degrees as a starting point and decided to see if I had air escaping thru the oil fill tube (compression issues perhaps) and heard some slight noises. Is this standard noises of the lifters and rods going up and down? The coach has 135k on it and the cam shaft is slightly worn. I hope it isn't something way down the engine that is ready to blow! Thanks for any input veterans!
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254576 is a reply to message #254546] |
Sun, 06 July 2014 23:11 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210 Registered: September 2013 Location: W Washington
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Quickest way to verify the integrity you seek would be to run a compression test. It will tell you if pistons, rings, valves and cam lobes are in reasonably good shape. Can't help you with main and rod bearings .
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
[Updated on: Sun, 06 July 2014 23:12] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254579 is a reply to message #254546] |
Sun, 06 July 2014 23:44 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411 Registered: November 2013
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Put the dull end of a long screwdriver or prybar against your ear and use the other end on various engine parts...stay away from the pulleys and belts! A nice valve train setup will sound like a loud sewing machine, but still smooth and uniform. A loose valve train is going to sound like some 1800's printing press with a lot of clacking, but it may still be regular. Rod and main bearings should not be heard individually unless one is bad, and they will be louder lower in the block. You can buy a mechanics' stethoscope at Harbor Freight for $5 on sale, but it won't have the reach of the long prybar. A sheet of paper laying over the oil filler can indicate a compression leak if it flaps irregularly and there actually should be a slight vacuum there and not any positive pressure coming out. Put a video with sound on YouTube if you can and give us a kink to the address. I'm sure you will get several responses.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254594 is a reply to message #254579] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 06:37 |
budworks521
Messages: 137 Registered: October 2013 Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
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Thanks I'll try that. I did adjust the timing from 16/17 degrees to 10 and the noise was less evident in the oil fill tube. It does sound "BETTER" noise wise. I'll try the paper towel aspect this morning before work. I failed at my first attempt of a compression check because I left all the plugs in except the cylinder I was working on. I also didn't have the throttle open. Rookie playing ball with the big boys! I am beginning to wonder if I have excessive carbon buildup on the valves since the timing was advanced for some time. I only idled it in the driveway for a few months why I checked things out. Thanks for the hints
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254595 is a reply to message #254546] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 07:17 |
budworks521
Messages: 137 Registered: October 2013 Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
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The engine wanted to start easier at the 10 degree setting but it took awhile to warm up and idle. (block off plates installed) once idling the tappets sounded equal off the valve covers (screw driver trick) and I placed a paper towel over the oil fill tube and it pulsated up and down a slight bit. No continuous suck down or blow out. Not sure if that is what you mean by flapping it only moved about 1/8 " up and down. Thanks
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254625 is a reply to message #254546] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 13:34 |
budworks521
Messages: 137 Registered: October 2013 Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
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PVC valve it brand new and functioning well. I must admit that I am a true greenhorn rookie on this stuff. I did a compression check over the weekend and I now have two guys saying I did it right and wrong. I unhooked the fuel line to carb and routed to gas can under the coach. I undid the wiring to eliminate the distributor from sparking. This is where I went wrong perhaps. Staring with number 1 cylinder I threaded in the tester (all 7 plugs remained in place}and tapped the key for 5 seconds of engine cranking and the dial went from 30/60/95 lbs. Then turned off the ignition. Have been told that it should just take a tap or bump on the ignition and get a high reading from the beginning. This is my first time doing this. All cylinders registered 90-95 pounds and jumping in sequence of 30/60/90+ in the cranking. I did not have the throttle opened in carb. All plugs where in engine except the cylinder I was checking. Where am I going wrong???? Anyway, thanks a bunch and I'll try and try again!
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254628 is a reply to message #254625] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 14:12 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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budworks521 wrote on Mon, 07 July 2014 12:34PVC valve it brand new and functioning well. I must admit that I am a true greenhorn rookie on this stuff. I did a compression check over the weekend and I now have two guys saying I did it right and wrong. I unhooked the fuel line to carb and routed to gas can under the coach. I undid the wiring to eliminate the distributor from sparking. This is where I went wrong perhaps. Staring with number 1 cylinder I threaded in the tester (all 7 plugs remained in place}and tapped the key for 5 seconds of engine cranking and the dial went from 30/60/95 lbs. Then turned off the ignition. Have been told that it should just take a tap or bump on the ignition and get a high reading from the beginning. This is my first time doing this. All cylinders registered 90-95 pounds and jumping in sequence of 30/60/90+ in the cranking. I did not have the throttle opened in carb. All plugs where in engine except the cylinder I was checking. Where am I going wrong???? Anyway, thanks a bunch and I'll try and try again!
In this case since you are looking for comparisons between cylinders, you did fine. They all look equal and the absolute number may not matter for what you are looking for. By everything I've read on this thread, I doubt you have any serious problems if you even have a problem.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254632 is a reply to message #254625] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 16:51 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Lawrence,
Since no one has really answered your "how to" question, I'll give you my
method, right or wrong (may start another "tire war"). Having just done it
today myself, I really do remember how I do it. :-)
Some recommend doing the test only right after the engine has been run to
normal operating temperature. I no longer enjoy the heat that much, so I
just do it soon after the engine has been run and cooled down. Sometimes,
like today, I'll run it just long enough to be sure the cylinder walls are
well coated with oil.
First, remove ALL the plugs -- no point straining the starter more than
necessary.
Remove the BATT connector from the distributor cap so the sparks don't spark
.
Somehow block the throttle wide open -- I usually find a couple of places
to lodge the ends of a screwdriver so that it holds the throttle
cable open. This is so the pistons can suck in all the air they want.
Don't bother with the fuel system -- the float and needle valve in the
carb should
prevent any extra gas from being drawn.
I prefer a compression gauge with a removable hose. That is, there's an
adapter to screw into the spark plug hole which has a quick-disconnect
fitting on its upper end. After you get the adapter in place, you can snap
on the gauge's hose. Beats the heck out of any other style when you're
working under the floorboard of the GMC.
With the gauge connected, turn the key to spin the engine. I try to always
spin through 5 compression cycles -- it's easy to hear them. My rationale
for that is that I want to be sure I've gotten the reading of at least one
full compression cycle. Since I can't know where in the cycle any piston
is, I've got to do more than one cycle to achieve that end. Once I've gone
more than one, might as well do several and know I've measured what the
cylinder's capable of producing. If you watch the needle through 5, 10, 20
cycles, as I did in the distant past, you'll find that it really doesn't
rise any after about 3 cycles.
Naturally, do all the cylinders, and record the individual pressures, and
the date, for future use.
All that said, the main thing you're looking for is consistency between the
cylinders. Generally a spread of 15 psi between highest and lowest is
nothing to worry about. A low one is. A pair of low ones adjacent to each
other is probably a blown head gasket.
HTH,
Ken H.
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Lawrence Harrison
wrote:
> ...
> Where am I going wrong???? Anyway, thanks a bunch and I'll try and try
> again!
>
>
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254659 is a reply to message #254637] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 21:46 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411 Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Ken has described the exact way to do a compression check, no ifs, ands, or buts. I don't care what anybody else tells you, that's the way I learned how to do it 47 years ago. And I have had plenty of "mechanics" tell me that some or all of those steps are not necessary...THEY ARE WRONG. Do it the way Ken said and check for differences between cylinders. If you still only get 90 pounds of compression across the board, you have a cam timing problem or the engine is worn out. 90 lbs is good for a lawn mower or maybe a 2 cycle engine. Automotive engines should be 150 or better, less than 120 is poor.
One step Ken didn't mention is the ring seal test that you do after taking the first dry reading. If a cylinder is suspect, or all of them are low, squirt a shot of oil into the cylinder(no more than a teaspoon), spin the engine for just 1 second and repeat the compression test on that cylinder. Only oil one at a time. If the reading goes up more than 10%, the rings are worn and the oil is making the seal instead.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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Re: [GMCnet] Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254662 is a reply to message #254659] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 22:37 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Bullitthead wrote on Mon, 07 July 2014 20:46Ken has described the exact way to do a compression check, no ifs, ands, or buts. I don't care what anybody else tells you, that's the way I learned how to do it 47 years ago. And I have had plenty of "mechanics" tell me that some or all of those steps are not necessary...THEY ARE WRONG. Do it the way Ken said and check for differences between cylinders. If you still only get 90 pounds of compression across the board, you have a cam timing problem or the engine is worn out. 90 lbs is good for a lawn mower or maybe a 2 cycle engine. Automotive engines should be 150 or better, less than 120 is poor.
One step Ken didn't mention is the ring seal test that you do after taking the first dry reading. If a cylinder is suspect, or all of them are low, squirt a shot of oil into the cylinder(no more than a teaspoon), spin the engine for just 1 second and repeat the compression test on that cylinder. Only oil one at a time. If the reading goes up more than 10%, the rings are worn and the oil is making the seal instead.
Let's not forget how this discussion started--this is not an autopsy over a dead engine. The question was whether it is common to hear noises through the oil filler tube. The engine may be worn but the quest was whether there is an internal failure and one of the cylinders may have problems. Everything I read here is that yes, you can hear noises through the oil intake, and yes all the cylinders seem to be balanced, and no there is not an internal failure, and no there is not excessive blow by. Pretty soon we'll have this guy pulling the engine when nothing is wrong.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254667 is a reply to message #254664] |
Mon, 07 July 2014 23:33 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
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A Hamilto wrote on Mon, 07 July 2014 22:07Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 07 July 2014 22:37Let's not forget how this discussion started--this is not an autopsy over a dead engine. The question was whether it is common to hear noises through the oil filler tube. The engine may be worn but the quest was whether there is an internal failure and one of the cylinders may have problems. Everything I read here is that yes, you can hear noises through the oil intake, and yes all the cylinders seem to be balanced, and no there is not an internal failure, and no there is not excessive blow by. Pretty soon we'll have this guy pulling the engine when nothing is wrong. Maybe just suggest checking the timing chain/gears. Any 455 in the range of 100,000 miles should probably have them replaced as preventive maintenance.
Good advice and relatively easy.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254672 is a reply to message #254546] |
Tue, 08 July 2014 06:14 |
budworks521
Messages: 137 Registered: October 2013 Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
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Gentlemen, Thanks for all the suggestions on improving my testing. All this stuff started after having some work done on the coach in the fall. Long story short, I had to replace the head gaskets do to a shop not topping off my coolant and "burping" the radiator. Currently, I have heads re-machined, intake bathed and block off plates installed (no cracks) two new exhaust manifolds, HEI ignition, Dick P. wires and re-curved distributor. This unit ran great prior to new heads etc..... Oil pressure starts at 40/42 and goes to 21 after engine warmed. I did the test on a fully warm engine 195 and finished the test at 150 degrees. All the reading where 95 highest and 90 lowest. Would the reading be any higher IF THE THROTTLE was opened? And IF THE PLUGS WERE all yanked? I hear that some testers give lower readings after much use. I did get the coach to drive 55mph for 1.0 miles before it started to stall and lose power. Limped home and then started to check carb and timing issues. Still getting a little spit back thru the carb on initial start but can get it idling after engine has warmed. New tva switch for vac advance as well. Thinking of bumping it to 12 degrees now???? Thanks guys.
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254673 is a reply to message #254546] |
Tue, 08 July 2014 06:33 |
budworks521
Messages: 137 Registered: October 2013 Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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Also, the timing chain was in great shape when the water pump was replaced at 130k, new fuel pump, and currently running 92 octane gas purchased in the fall filled full tank no stabil additive used. It started immediately this Spring and idled great. Now it is harder to start... I was thinking that maybe the carb went bad? Chokes, accelerator pump appears to be fine and steady stream of gas goes into carb.
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254694 is a reply to message #254673] |
Tue, 08 July 2014 09:35 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411 Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Did not know you had just removed and machined the heads! Sounds like the valve train needs some attention...the valves may not be closing all the way due to the machining making them closer to the cam...definitely should be more compression than that. Might want to verify that compression tester before taking it back apart again.. The tester should not vary or change for many years of use. Definitely remove all the plugs and the throttle needs to be wide open, it will increase the reading. Did you try the oil squirt? 2 degrees of timing is not the difference between a running or not running engine.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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Re: Is it common to hear noises from the oil fill tube?? [message #254713 is a reply to message #254546] |
Tue, 08 July 2014 13:00 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
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I went back and tried another engine (Ford 3 liter). Throttle closed, 100psi, blocked open 145PSI. So yeah, it will affect as will the missing or installed sparking plugs - the starter spins it faster with the all out. As someone mentioned, since all cylinders are about the same (rule of thumb is 10% variation is OK) figure the engine's in decent shape and go about your binniss.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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