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| [GMCnet] Brake fluids [message #252811] |
Fri, 20 June 2014 21:58  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Mueller [mailto:robmueller@iinet.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 7:35 PM
To: 'gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org'
Subject: Brake fluids
G'day,
When we were discussing Dan's brakes someone mentioned that Summit had brake fluid that came in two colors which made it easy to
flush.
I have been a proponent of ATE brake fluid because they make Dot 4 brake fluid in two colors with the highest dry and wet boiling
points available that was OK for use in non racing vehicles. This was true up until I found the information on Wilwood EXP 600.
ATE Super Blue Racing: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=21
NO LONGER AVAILABLE FROM TIRERACK - The DOT or some other dumbass governmental body made Super Blue illegal because it was blue and
DOT 5 is Purple and people might confuse it.
ATE TYP 200: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?make=ATE&model=Type+200+Amber+Brake+Fluid&group=Type+200+Amber+Brake+Fluid&partNum=ATETYP2
00&cat=BrakeFluid
As you can see in the blurb ATE recommends changing it every three years and "The identical specifications of the fluid and color
difference make it easy to know when the old fluid is completely flushed out of the system."
Here's the info on Wilwood EXP 600 on the Summit website:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-290-6209/
Which has the following specs:
Wilwood EXP 600 Plus Super High-Temp racing brake fluid is a highly refined blend developed for extreme performance under the high
heat and extreme pressure of professional motorsports. EXP 600 Plus has tested to 626 degrees F with a wet boiling point of 417
degrees F. These numbers far exceed any DOT or SAE specifications. EXP 600 Plus brake fluid has been proven to maintain a firm pedal
feel and quick response and IT HAS LOW-MOISTURE AFFINITIES TO SLOW THE NATURAL ABSORPTION RATE OF WATER VAPOR. For optimum
performance, EXP 600 Plus should not be diluted with any other brake fluids; add new fluid to a clean system.
I contacted Wilwood in an attempt to get a recommended interval to flush it so I could compare it to the ATE fluid. Below you will
find my email and Wilwood's response. As you can see they said it is OK for street use but didn't provide a recommended flush
interval.
Also at $18.75 for 16.9 ounces (500cc) EXP 600 is three times the price than the ATE at $12.00 for 33.8 ounces (1000cc). That's
$37.00 vs. $12.00. I found that it took 1 liter to fill the whole system in Double Trouble (front & middle disks, rear drums) so the
cost to fill or flush would triple.
Here's a link to a chart I found that provides some other racing brake fluids. BE CAREFUL and do your own research as some of these
are NOT recommended for use in non-racing vehicles!
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=BRAKEFLUID
In case you're wondering what I'm going to do; I have two liters of ATE Super Blue and Three liters of Type 200 so that should
answer that question. So now you ask what would I do if I didn't have that and the answer is DUNNO! ;-)
STOP THE PRESSES!!!! I just spotted this in Wilwood's flyer on the EXP 600!
"Use of EXP should be restricted to not more than 12 months."
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl178.pdf
Looks like Wilwood customer service leaves a bit to be desired!
Well now I KNOW I'll be staying with ATE!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Mueller
To: customerreply@wilwood.com
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:21 PM
Subject: EXP 600 Plus
Hi,
I have a 1975 GMC Motorhome that uses the front end drive/suspension/disk brakes which are the same as the Oldsmobile Toronado of
the same year. The rear four wheels have drum brakes.
I have just finished rebuilding the system completely and found your EXP 600 racing brake fluid and would like to know if you would
recommend putting it in my Motorhome.
If yes how often would you recommend flushing and refilling it to remove moisture?
Please advise.
Thank you,
Rob Mueller
********************************************************************
From: Customer Reply [mailto:customerreply@wilwood.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 6:33 AM
To: Rob Mueller
Subject: Re: EXP 600 Plus
Rob,
Thank you for the inquiry with Wilwood Disc Brakes. The Wilwood EXP600 brake fluid is a DOT 4, as long as this is compatible with
your hydraulic system, it is compatible for street use.
Flushing the brake system is not entirely based on time, but also on use and climate. You will have to monitor it like any other
DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake fluid, to see when flushing is needed.
Regards,
MJ
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluids [message #252852 is a reply to message #252811] |
Sat, 21 June 2014 13:18  |
Harry
Messages: 1888
Registered: October 2007
Location: Victoria, BC CANADA
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I put this up on here some time ago. But it doesn't hurt to be reminded.
Courtesy of Rodding Roundtable.
Brake fluid does wear out and become contaminated.
Some people are still rejecting the notion of changing transmission fluid on a regular basis. How are we going to convince them that they should now change brake fluid regularly?
For years, many considered brake fluid to be a brake-job-to-brake-job service item. Do a brake job, and rebuild the wheel cylinders. Then, bleeding the brakes will flush the system - sort of.
Well, brake fluid always was, and continues to be hygroscopic - meaning that it absorbs moisture like a sponge. Leave a container of brake fluid open for a few hot, humid summer days, and it will likely absorb enough moisture to render it un-useable according to DOT specifications.
From a brake engineering point of view, absorbing and dispersing moisture throughout the system is good. It keeps moisture from forming in puddles within the system. Of course, these water puddles would settle into the lowest areas - such as wheel cylinders and calipers - where they can easily be boiled into steam by the heat generated by hard braking conditions and cause a loss of braking known as brake fade.
The downside of brake fluid being so hygroscopic is that the moisture dispersed throughout the system lowers the brake fluid boiling point, increases its viscosity, and promotes rust and corrosion.
• BRAKE FLUID SPECIFICATIONS
The DOT 3 specification requires a minimum boiling point of 401° Fahrenheit for "dry" brake fluid - fluid that contains no moisture whatsoever. To meet DOT 3 specs., "wet" or fully saturated fluid should reach 284° before boiling.
DOT 4 specs calls for minimum boiling points of 446° dry and 311° wet.
Most DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids sold today meet or exceed the above specifications, but it is important to know the numbers.
NAPA DOT 3 brake fluids, for example, actually exceed minimum DOT 4 standards with a dry boiling point of 450°, while many of the cheaper brake fluids barely meet the minimum requirements to call themselves a DOT 3.
As with most other things there really IS a difference between a cheap brake fluid and a quality brake fluid.
DOT 5 is silicone-based brake fluid with a wet boiling point of more than 500° F.
You may ask yourself why the manufacturers do not simply switch to DOT 5 spec fluid. After all if some is good, more is better, and too much is just right. Right?
Well the DOT 5, while better under heat conditions than DOT 3 or DOT 4, does NOT absorb any moisture, so any moisture that finds its way into the system WILL puddle up somewhere causing rust, corrosion and, possibly, brake fade. You don't want slugs of water floating around any brake system.
Also, DOT 5 silicone fluid contains more absorbed air than DOT 3 or DOT 4 glycol, and it will aerate much more easily when it is pumped through small orifices such as those on an ABS system. For that reason, most manufacturers warn against using a DOT 5 fluid in cars with ABS.
DOT 5 is recommended for vehicles that sit for long periods such as antiques and classics that are stored all winter, and, of course, for racing due to its high heat tolerance. But conditions within the hydraulic system MUST be monitored.
• THE REAL WORLD
Even in sealed automotive brake systems, brake fluid will absorb one percent or more moisture every year simply from opening the reservoir to check fluid level, opening the bleeders, and through microscopic pores in the rubber hoses.
According to one trade publication we read, many two-year-old vehicles have been found to contain two to three percent water in the brake fluid. Imagine how much water must be contained in some six, seven, eight year or older vehicles that have never had their brake fluid serviced.
One percent water content can push DOT 3 fluid down to a 369° boiling point while two percent can push it down to 320°. Three percent can get it down to 293° - dangerously close to minimum DOT 3 requirements.
The rate at which this occurs depends on a lot of things such as the age of the vehicle and the type of hoses used. Better quality hoses are lined to make them less permeable to moisture. Some manufacturers chose to skip the lining in order to sell their product a little cheaper. You get what you pay for.
DOT (Department of Transportation) 3 and DOT 4 specification brake fluids are made from glycol and additives. Glycol absorbs and disperses moisture. The additive package helps to keep the moisture from attacking the internal components of the brake hydraulic system.
Another area of concern on today's automobile that was not a factor years ago is Antilock Braking Systems or ABS. There are many close tolerance components within the ABS system, and moisture can wreak havoc with them. Replacing a single ABS component is often much more expensive than a simple brake fluid service would have been.
The average car on the road today is 10 years-old. According to Brake & Front End Magazine, only half of these cars have ever had their brake fluid changed.
For the average motorist, there might not be that much risk under normal driving conditions. But, prolonged braking such as mountain driving and trailer towing might tax old brake fluid beyond its capacity.
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