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Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? (Ever visit the factory in Oz? )  () 1 Vote
Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250014] Sun, 18 May 2014 08:42 Go to next message
JimGunther is currently offline  JimGunther   United States
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Some months ago I speculated the Fiat / Dodge FWD truck frame/power unit MIGHT make a suitable update (with some RELATIVELY) minor modifications.

Hard to believe a Fiat could carry a GMC on its' back but.....

I just returned from a 2,000 KM "back roads" trip in Northern Italy and was shocked by the number of Fiat (and other) powered Class C motorhomes. Don't know if any were V-6 or Diesel powered. I never took the chance to talk to any of the drivers but, none seemed to have any problem climbing any of the goat paths we enjoyed (in our Fiat Panda rental).

Did you ever get to the factory near you (in OZ) to get a closer look. There seemed to be several options including a GMC-like tandem arrangement in the rear. Worth a closer look?


Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;( 73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250016 is a reply to message #250014] Sun, 18 May 2014 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loffen is currently offline  Loffen   Norway
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Most of the C-class motorhomes in europe use a 4 cylinder turbo diesel engine, 2.4 - 2.8 liter and normaly around 140 hp.
And Fiat, Peugeot and Citroen are sharing the same chassis so they are basicaly the same under the skin.


1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green, And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel in Norway
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250023 is a reply to message #250014] Sun, 18 May 2014 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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Jim,

I never went out to look at the Winnebago factory out west of Sydney. The reason being was that the models offered did not have
tandem rear wheels.

http://www.avidarv.com.au/motorhomes

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Gunther

Some months ago I speculated the Fiat / Dodge FWD truck frame/power unit MIGHT make a suitable update (with some RELATIVELY) minor
modifications.

Hard to believe a Fiat could carry a GMC on its' back but.....

I just returned from a 2,000 KM "back roads" trip in Northern Italy and was shocked by the number of Fiat (and other) powered Class
C motorhomes.

Don't know if any were V-6 or Diesel powered. I never took the chance to talk to any of the drivers but, none seemed to have any
problem climbing any of the goat paths we enjoyed (in our Fiat Panda rental).

Did you ever get to the factory near you (in OZ) to get a closer look. There seemed to be several options including a GMC-like
tandem arrangement in the rear. Worth a closer look?
--
Jim Gunther

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250024 is a reply to message #250023] Sun, 18 May 2014 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loffen is currently offline  Loffen   Norway
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Here you have a link to a add for a new one in Norway.

http://www.finn.no/finn/car/mobilehome/object?finnkode=47724463&searchclickthrough=true


1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green, And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel in Norway
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250027 is a reply to message #250024] Sun, 18 May 2014 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Very nice sardine can! For $102,000 US, I think I'll keep my GMC. :-)

Ken H.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Espen Heitmann wrote:

> Here you have a link to a add for a new one in Norway.
>
>
> http://www.finn.no/finn/car/mobilehome/object?finnkode=47724463&searchclickthrough=true
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250034 is a reply to message #250027] Sun, 18 May 2014 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loffen is currently offline  Loffen   Norway
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Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 18 May 2014 16:41
Very nice sardine can! For $102,000 US, I think I'll keep my GMC. Smile

Ken H.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Espen Heitmann wrote:

> Here you have a link to a add for a new one in Norway.
>
>
> http://www.finn.no/finn/car/mobilehome/object?finnkode=47724463&searchclickthrough=true
> --
>
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Oh did I mention that the Norwegian prices are a bit higher than in the US ? (And the rest of Europe for that matter)

What about the new Corvette ? 6 Nok = $ 1 http://www.finn.no/finn/car/used/object?finnkode=44077113&searchclickthrough=true


1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green, And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel in Norway
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250035 is a reply to message #250034] Sun, 18 May 2014 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
appie is currently offline  appie   Denmark
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The frame resembles the gmc, but is not quite the qualityhttp://www.al-ko.com/406.htm Suspension is taken directly from the trailerline witha torsionbar axel

Appie eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold 6 wheel discbrake Quadrabags Springfield stage 2 462 olds Manny tranny ( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016 Denmark
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250037 is a reply to message #250014] Sun, 18 May 2014 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
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Location: Chandler, AZ
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JimGunther wrote on Sun, 18 May 2014 07:42
Some months ago I speculated the Fiat / Dodge FWD truck frame/power unit MIGHT make a suitable update (with some RELATIVELY) minor modifications.

Hard to believe a Fiat could carry a GMC on its' back but.....

I just returned from a 2,000 KM "back roads" trip in Northern Italy and was shocked by the number of Fiat (and other) powered Class C motorhomes. Don't know if any were V-6 or Diesel powered. I never took the chance to talk to any of the drivers but, none seemed to have any problem climbing any of the goat paths we enjoyed (in our Fiat Panda rental).

Did you ever get to the factory near you (in OZ) to get a closer look. There seemed to be several options including a GMC-like tandem arrangement in the rear. Worth a closer look?


We have several "Americanized" units with the Chrysler 3.6 at our tech center. Several are cutaway units with dually rear wheels (not tandem) Looking at the components, I just don't see that they can handle a GMC body from a durability standpoint. Maybe an empty shell, but our coaches are furnished with very heavy parts such as particle wood cabinets, fancy countertops, etc.


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250050 is a reply to message #250037] Sun, 18 May 2014 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Byron Songer is currently offline  Byron Songer   United States
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What those in Europe call "integrated" would probably be more to the liking of GMC aficionados. The link, below, is to a company and model that has caught my eye. The tandem rear end is the Al-Co unit (referred to earlier) that is big in Europe. It is a Dunlop development.

http://www.buerstner.com/uk/motorhomes/integrated_models/elegance.html



-- Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250053 is a reply to message #250014] Sun, 18 May 2014 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
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IF I had 173 Large....

--johnny


Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250057 is a reply to message #250035] Sun, 18 May 2014 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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That axle arrangment reminds me of my '90 Airstream Land Yacht (the
fiberglass version, not the all-aluminum one). I drove across country with
it in '96, right after buying it, without doing any work on it. Shortly
after our return, at the last stop sign before our destination, the left
rear brake (the rear, not the middle on the tandem axles) began to make an
awful howling, squealing noise.

When I removed the guilty brake drum, imagine my surprise to find that it
was magnetically operated! A little further examination showed why: the
trailing axle was a Torsilastic straight from the trailer line! In a way,
that was good: a local RV dealership had a complete brake, backing plate
out, for a very reasonable price.

We soon replaced the Airstream with a '97 Safari, which also had
Torsilastic suspension, but of a completely different, more robust design
specifically for large motorhome applications.

I was completely satisfied with both of those, and I've often wondered
whether that might be a viable replacement for the GMC's somewhat weird
arrangement. It certainly has far fewer wear & maintenance points -- but
no leveling capability.

Ken H.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, lenze middelberg wrote:

> The frame resembles the gmc, but is not quite the qualityhttp://
> www.al-ko.com/406.htm Suspension is taken directly from the trailerline
> witha
> torsionbar axel
> --
> Appie
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250063 is a reply to message #250057] Sun, 18 May 2014 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Byron Songer is currently offline  Byron Songer   United States
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Senior Member

I recall your telling me about that experience. I didn't give great thought to the implementation by Airstream. However, I was aware that the design on the Safari was from BF Goodrich.

As to the rear axle development used in Europe (by Dunlop), it also rides on air springs. One of the features they boast of when used on trucks was keeping the load floor level regardless of the weight (to a fixed limit). I've often wondered why it never made it across the pond to this side. That rear end and frame is married to a lot of different front clips including the MB Sprinter chassis, though there isn't much bragging about it being used with them.

The one thing about that design is that one axle doesn't interact with the other as in the original design on the GMC. The bogey has it's good points and it's bad point but people that drive tandem rear ends know that the ride and is better than a single rear axle. For sure, the Dunlop design would be relatively inexpensive to implement once the politics of the situation was settled.



Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 18 May 2014 18:15
That axle arrangment reminds me of my '90 Airstream Land Yacht (the
fiberglass version, not the all-aluminum one). I drove across country with
it in '96, right after buying it, without doing any work on it. Shortly
after our return, at the last stop sign before our destination, the left
rear brake (the rear, not the middle on the tandem axles) began to make an
awful howling, squealing noise.

When I removed the guilty brake drum, imagine my surprise to find that it
was magnetically operated! A little further examination showed why: the
trailing axle was a Torsilastic straight from the trailer line! In a way,
that was good: a local RV dealership had a complete brake, backing plate
out, for a very reasonable price.

We soon replaced the Airstream with a '97 Safari, which also had
Torsilastic suspension, but of a completely different, more robust design
specifically for large motorhome applications.

I was completely satisfied with both of those, and I've often wondered
whether that might be a viable replacement for the GMC's somewhat weird
arrangement. It certainly has far fewer wear & maintenance points -- but
no leveling capability.

Ken H.



-- Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250232 is a reply to message #250035] Tue, 20 May 2014 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JimGunther is currently offline  JimGunther   United States
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There is one on their site (I'll have to dig deeper) that show (what appears to be independent) 4 separate or independently suspended wheels. The illustration I'm referring to seemed pretty beefy (God only knows what kind of premium they get for it and whether it would be cost-effective to specify the set-up to be located where it needs to be for the 23' or 26' GMC.
I wonder if the "Integrated" models include a heavier and more flexible rear wheel set-up.


appie wrote on Sun, 18 May 2014 12:07
The frame resembles the gmc, but is not quite the qualityhttp://www.al-ko.com/406.htm Suspension is taken directly from the trailerline witha torsionbar axel



Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;( 73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250238 is a reply to message #250014] Tue, 20 May 2014 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Broham is currently offline  Broham   United States
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I still think the Dodge Promax would be a great fit. FWD V6 diesel with 10,000 GVW + 5,000 towing. that means the drivetrain with pull 15,000 lbs, right? I can't wait until they start showing up in the junk yards and I can get a better look at them.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ram_promaster/



Todd Owner of a 1976 Eleganza II 26’ other toys: 93 Vette 84 Goldwing and gone but not forgotten 72 CB750 Chopper 96 Caprice Classic 34 Ford roadster 94 Fleetwood
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250240 is a reply to message #250238] Tue, 20 May 2014 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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Todd,

You might have something there!

Here's a link to an article that shows the frame / FWD setup:

http://www.allpar.com/trucks/ram/ProMaster.html

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Perkins

I still think the Dodge Promax would be a great fit. FWD V6 diesel with 10,000 GVW + 5,000 towing. that means the drivetrain with
pull 15,000 lbs, right? I can't wait until they start showing up in the junk yards and I can get a better look at them.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ram_promaster/

--
Todd


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250263 is a reply to message #250232] Wed, 21 May 2014 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
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JimGunther wrote on Tue, 20 May 2014 19:54
There is one on their site (I'll have to dig deeper) that show (what appears to be independent) 4 separate or independently suspended wheels. The illustration I'm referring to seemed pretty beefy (God only knows what kind of premium they get for it and whether it would be cost-effective to specify the set-up to be located where it needs to be for the 23' or 26' GMC.
I wonder if the "Integrated" models include a heavier and more flexible rear wheel set-up.


appie wrote on Sun, 18 May 2014 12:07
The frame resembles the gmc, but is not quite the qualityhttp://www.al-ko.com/406.htm Suspension is taken directly from the trailerline witha torsionbar axel


The US units have leaf spring rear axles. The "frame rails" are really the reinforcements from the unibody enclosed versions and are more or less sheet metal style


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: [GMCnet] Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250278 is a reply to message #250263] Wed, 21 May 2014 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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Bob,

I found a number of photos of the Dodge ProMaster which show this unit might have promise as a drive train for the GMC:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6610-dodge-promax.html

I reckon the ProMaster FWD would have to be installed into the GMC frame.

Question, would the HP and TQ of the gas and diesel engines be sufficient to power a GMC?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob de Kruyff

The US units have leaf spring rear axles. The "frame rails" are really the reinforcements from the unibody enclosed versions and are
more or less sheet metal style
--
Bob

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250282 is a reply to message #250014] Wed, 21 May 2014 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rcjordan   United States
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gvwr of the diesel is 12,500 lbs. gas burner is 11,500

https://www.ramtrucks.com/en/pdf/2014_ram_promaster_eBrochure.pdf


SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250285 is a reply to message #250238] Wed, 21 May 2014 19:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Byron Songer is currently offline  Byron Songer   United States
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Just because the drivetrain can pull it doesn't mean the chassis can haul it. If the chassis were beefed up a bit more and those leaf springs replaced with air springs (and add a tandem axle) then the product could haul the GMC's 26-foot body, plumbing, and other gear with no problem. Still, it might be a bit noisy in the front if you went for the 3.0L diesel with more torque than the 3.6L gas. Better economy does have it's price.

-- Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
Re: Fiat Frame/Driveline - Mueller? [message #250286 is a reply to message #250014] Wed, 21 May 2014 19:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
JimGunther is currently offline  JimGunther   United States
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Here's a few links to Al-Ko's site - (not certain the USA Division makes ALL these options available but, Winnebago's getting something from them.

I thought their independent suspension was outboard mounted (like the GMC Bogies) but they apparently use some kind of axle (for rigidity??). In any event, it looks like you couldf easily snuggle it under the GMC Floor.

BTW: It APPEARS their sales/design system is somewhat modular and flexible depending on the needs of the customer.


http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/axle-technology-2.html

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/technical-specification-8.html

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/introduction-8.html

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/features---benefits-28.html

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/air-plus.html


Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;( 73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer
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