Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » 1-ton lower ball joint bolts
| 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247518] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 16:20  |
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burtco99
Messages: 31
Registered: September 2007
Location: Montreal
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Found this on Facebook.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/front-suspension/p54330-1-ton-lower-balljoint-bolts.html
Not sure that the use of carriage bolts is very secure. Most carriage bolts I have used were equivalent to a grade 3 bolt. IMO a grade 5 or better bolt should be used for the balljoints.
The originator used the carriage bolts as a means of providing better CV boot clearance. He appears to be concerned about the CV boot getting torn up by the bolts supplied in the kit.
So, this brings up two questions for the benefit of everyone here:
1) Are carriage bolts strong enough to safely secure the lower balljoint?
2) Do the 1-ton set-ups have clearance issues between the CV boots and the balljoint bolts?
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247521 is a reply to message #247518] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 16:51  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Les, as I install 1 ton Hubler Version ll, the one that Manny T. builds,
we do install the two center lower ball joint fasteners. They are, Manny
assures me, indeed, grade 8 carriage bolts. He uses a custom supplier for
them. If you use hex head fasteners in place of the carriage bolts, in some
cases of cv boots from different suppliers of the axle assemblies will
interfere with the hex head bolts causing early boot failure. I have had no
problems other than the heads of the carriage bolts turning in the holes
before they are tight. In that case, I stung them with my mig welder enough
to prevent them from turning until they were tight. These lower joints are
so tightly held in place sandwiched between the reinforcement plates and
the ball joint is much larger than the stock gmc joints I do not feel that
there is any cause for concern. But, a little worry in not necessarily a
bad thing. Just because we are a little paranoid, does not mean that the
whole world is NOT OUT TO GET US. (Grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 15, 2014 2:20 PM, "Les Burt" <lburt@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Found this on Facebook.
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/front-suspension/p54330-1-ton-lower-balljoint-bolts.html
>
> Not sure that the use of carriage bolts is very secure. Most carriage
> bolts I have used were equivalent to a grade 3 bolt. IMO a grade 5 or
> better bolt should be used for the balljoints.
>
> The originator used the carriage bolts as a means of providing better CV
> boot clearance. He appears to be concerned about the CV boot getting torn
> up by the bolts supplied in the kit.
>
>
>
> So, this brings up two questions for the benefit of everyone here:
>
> 1) Are carriage bolts strong enough to safely secure the lower balljoint?
>
> 2) Do the 1-ton set-ups have clearance issues between the CV boots and the
> balljoint bolts?
>
>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247523 is a reply to message #247521] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 17:03 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Thanks for the clarification Jim. This was my main reason for posting the photo and asking the questions. Reasons are not always evident in the photos we find.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Apr 15, 2014, at 5:51 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
Les, as I install 1 ton Hubler Version ll, the one that Manny T. builds,
we do install the two center lower ball joint fasteners. They are, Manny
assures me, indeed, grade 8 carriage bolts. He uses a custom supplier for
them. If you use hex head fasteners in place of the carriage bolts, in some
cases of cv boots from different suppliers of the axle assemblies will
interfere with the hex head bolts causing early boot failure. I have had no
problems other than the heads of the carriage bolts turning in the holes
before they are tight. In that case, I stung them with my mig welder enough
to prevent them from turning until they were tight. These lower joints are
so tightly held in place sandwiched between the reinforcement plates and
the ball joint is much larger than the stock gmc joints I do not feel that
there is any cause for concern. But, a little worry in not necessarily a
bad thing. Just because we are a little paranoid, does not mean that the
whole world is NOT OUT TO GET US. (Grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
> On Apr 15, 2014 2:20 PM, "Les Burt" <lburt@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> Found this on Facebook.
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/front-suspension/p54330-1-ton-lower-balljoint-bolts.html
>
> Not sure that the use of carriage bolts is very secure. Most carriage
> bolts I have used were equivalent to a grade 3 bolt. IMO a grade 5 or
> better bolt should be used for the balljoints.
>
> The originator used the carriage bolts as a means of providing better CV
> boot clearance. He appears to be concerned about the CV boot getting torn
> up by the bolts supplied in the kit.
>
>
>
> So, this brings up two questions for the benefit of everyone here:
>
> 1) Are carriage bolts strong enough to safely secure the lower balljoint?
>
> 2) Do the 1-ton set-ups have clearance issues between the CV boots and the
> balljoint bolts?
>
>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247538 is a reply to message #247518] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 21:43 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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What timing...
I was under my coach looking at the charcoal canister and noticed my passenger side CV boot was torn! The clearance to the hex head bolt is minimal!
I guess I have another item to add to the "to do" list...
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2014-04-15, at 2:20 PM, Les Burt wrote:
>
>
> Found this on Facebook.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/front-suspension/p54330-1-ton-lower-balljoint-bolts.html
>
> Not sure that the use of carriage bolts is very secure. Most carriage bolts I have used were equivalent to a grade 3 bolt. IMO a grade 5 or better bolt should be used for the balljoints.
>
> The originator used the carriage bolts as a means of providing better CV boot clearance. He appears to be concerned about the CV boot getting torn up by the bolts supplied in the kit.
>
>
>
> So, this brings up two questions for the benefit of everyone here:
>
> 1) Are carriage bolts strong enough to safely secure the lower balljoint?
>
> 2) Do the 1-ton set-ups have clearance issues between the CV boots and the balljoint bolts?
>
>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247544 is a reply to message #247539] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 23:01 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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Yes - my GMC has a 1-ton front end. The previous owner had it installed, less than 1000 miles ago. So I was lulled into thinking I'd have years of trouble-free service!
Unfortunately, that won't be the case...
I could see that the limited clearance on the passenger side was the culprit - it's far less than on the driver's side. I'm going to try a quick fix (ZAP-A-GAP) and hope that I don't have too many issues in the mean time...
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2014-04-15, at 7:50 PM, Les Burt wrote:
> Rob,
> Does your coach have the 1-ton (aka Hubler) front end upgrade?
>
> This specific thread was about the 1-ton upgrade ball joint bolts. A stock configuration is different.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247571 is a reply to message #247518] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 07:42 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Buy button head cap screws with Allen. Black grade 8. Sadly most screws are now off shore even Brighton-Best.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247577 is a reply to message #247538] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 08:45 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Rob,
Did you look closely enough to be sure it's actually torn, rather than come
off of the outer flange? I've found that situation on several 1-Ton's. On
the 1-Ton we're planning to install here tomorrow we'll replace the
single-wrap clamp with a Band-It double wrap to prevent that problem.
That's not to minimize the importance of eliminating those hex head
interferences
but this new production kit will have the carriage head bolts.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Rob wrote:
> What timing...
>
> I was under my coach looking at the charcoal canister and noticed my
> passenger side CV boot was torn! The clearance to the hex head bolt is
> minimal!
>
> I guess I have another item to add to the "to do" list...
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247596 is a reply to message #247577] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 10:00 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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Yeah - I'm pretty sure it's torn.
I was looking at it in disbelief (since it had so few miles on it) and looked at the other side - a nice, new, dry boot, but also 2x-3x times the clearance to the bolt head. When I returned to the passenger side - I could see the tear was very close to the same location as the bolt. I've never heard about that issue - but I only really heard about the 1-ton upgrade when researching this coach...
Shortly afterwards - I saw the picture on FB that started this thread... I'll have to look at it more closely - I'm going to try and seal it up to hold things off a bit...
Thanks,
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2014-04-16, at 6:45 AM, Ken Henderson wrote:
> Rob,
>
> Did you look closely enough to be sure it's actually torn, rather than come
> off of the outer flange? I've found that situation on several 1-Ton's. On
> the 1-Ton we're planning to install here tomorrow we'll replace the
> single-wrap clamp with a Band-It double wrap to prevent that problem.
>
> That's not to minimize the importance of eliminating those hex head
> interferences
> but this new production kit will have the carriage head bolts.
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
> Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247600 is a reply to message #247544] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 10:39 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Rob,
I and I'm sure others would like to hear about and see the results of your repair wit Zap a Gap.
I don't have the one ton but I have had several unexplained cv boot failures/rips over the years. Almost always on curb side. Never tried to repair one; just replaced.
I think the curb side boot is more prone to failure since it drives in the roadside dirt/gravel/debris more often.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247601 is a reply to message #247600] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 10:46 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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I'm not sure how it will go - all I want to do is buy a bit of time before fixing it properly...
I'll also wrap some smooth duct tape over the bolt heads.
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2014-04-16, at 8:39 AM, gene barrow wrote:
>
>
> Rob,
> I and I'm sure others would like to hear about and see the results of your repair wit Zap a Gap.
>
> I don't have the one ton but I have had several unexplained cv boot failures/rips over the years. Almost always on curb side. Never tried to repair one; just replaced.
>
> I think the curb side boot is more prone to failure since it drives in the roadside dirt/gravel/debris more often.
> --
> Gene Barrow
> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> 1976 Palm Beach
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Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247604 is a reply to message #247601] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 10:58 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Rob, that boot repair is really much easier on the 1 ton front end as
opposed to the factory setup. All that is necessary is to remove the
caliper pins and hang the caliper up out of the way.(2) Then, remove the
axle nut along with the four 15 mm headed bolts on the front hub that can
be accessed from the back side of the brake rotor.(1) Lift and properly
support the coach on heavy duty jackstands and remove the wheel and
tire,(3) Then the rotor and hub can just be pulled off exposing the end of
the axle assembly including the boot. Those two center hex bolts on the
ball joint can be also accessed at this time and replaced with the special
grade 8 carriage bolts from Manny. Once the rotor and hub is out of the
way, you can remove the axle retaining bolts and remove the axle assembly.
Much easier than separating the ball joint tapers and/or fighting with
those three hidden seal retainer bolts on the original front end.
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Rob <gmc@thebaileys.ca> wrote:
> I'm not sure how it will go - all I want to do is buy a bit of time before
> fixing it properly...
>
> I'll also wrap some smooth duct tape over the bolt heads.
>
> Rob
> Victoria, BC
> 76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
>
> On 2014-04-16, at 8:39 AM, gene barrow wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> > I and I'm sure others would like to hear about and see the results of
> your repair wit Zap a Gap.
> >
> > I don't have the one ton but I have had several unexplained cv boot
> failures/rips over the years. Almost always on curb side. Never tried to
> repair one; just replaced.
> >
> > I think the curb side boot is more prone to failure since it drives in
> the roadside dirt/gravel/debris more often.
> > --
> > Gene Barrow
> > Lake Almanor, Ca.
> > 1976 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247609 is a reply to message #247604] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 11:45 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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Thanks!
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2014-04-16, at 8:58 AM, James Hupy wrote:
> Rob, that boot repair is really much easier on the 1 ton front end as
> opposed to the factory setup. All that is necessary is to remove the
> caliper pins and hang the caliper up out of the way.(2) Then, remove the
> axle nut along with the four 15 mm headed bolts on the front hub that can
> be accessed from the back side of the brake rotor.(1) Lift and properly
> support the coach on heavy duty jackstands and remove the wheel and
> tire,(3) Then the rotor and hub can just be pulled off exposing the end of
> the axle assembly including the boot. Those two center hex bolts on the
> ball joint can be also accessed at this time and replaced with the special
> grade 8 carriage bolts from Manny. Once the rotor and hub is out of the
> way, you can remove the axle retaining bolts and remove the axle assembly.
> Much easier than separating the ball joint tapers and/or fighting with
> those three hidden seal retainer bolts on the original front end.
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247640 is a reply to message #247636] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 17:56 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Manny,
I don't understand why there is concern about these bolts at all. To explain it a bit more to those that might not understand what
you've noted below.
The ball joints are sandwiched between two steel plates, at the Gross Axle Weigh Rating there is a MINIMUM of 1,800 pounds pushing
the top of the ball joint flange into the bottom of the upper steel plate. The upper steel flange you install is formed in a |""""|
shape which stops the ball joint from moving front to rear. The bolts keep the ball joints located laterally front to rear, left to
right.
The OEM ball joint is under the lower control arm flange and has a large bolt in the center to locate and retain it laterally.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/products/full/961.jpg
Steve Ferguson replaces the 5/16" bolts with 3/8 bolts when he reinforces the OEM lower control arm.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Manny Trovao
The bolts I'm using are ASTM A307; that is what is stamped on the head of the bolt. They are the old grade 5. A307 is 60,000psi. One
square inch of A307 will support 60,000lbs.
A 7/16 bolt is 0.1050sq inch. The tensile strength is 6300psi and the shear strength is 60% of the tensile strength. All the four
bolts are doing is stopping the ball joint from coming out of the slot and it will take seven tons to shear the 4 of them.
The OEM GMC ball joints are held with 5/16 rivets. The replacement GMC ball joints come with 5/16 bolts. The I ton truck ball joints
are clamped between two steel plates.
Manny Trovao
mannystrans@gmail.com
http://www.mannystransmission.biz/
Manny's Trans / Power Drive
San Jose, California
408-937-1583
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247654 is a reply to message #247640] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 19:25 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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Since I am the OP of this topic, I'll state what my concern was until I heard that the bolts were a decent grade.
The soft grade 2 material of typical carriage bolts stretches fairly easily under torque. I was concerned that someone might use a standard bolt and not achieve sufficient clamping of the sandwiched plates that secure the balljoint. Worse yet, they could apply too much torque, stretching the soft bolt to the point that it is partially fractured and ready to fail. We certainly do not need a failure in this area giving a bad name to an otherwise good product.
Since Manny has clarified exactly what he is supplying in his kits, and that they are equivalent to a Grade 5 bolt, I am confident that they will do the job. I certainly wouldn't trust regular hardware store grade 2 carriage bolts.
If someone wanted additional security, grade 8 carriage bolts (aka shaker screen bolts) are available in bulk. Here is the link:
http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/bolts/Carriage-Bolts/Grade-8%7CFull-Thread
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Apr 16, 2014, at 6:56 PM, "Robert Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
Manny,
I don't understand why there is concern about these bolts at all. To explain it a bit more to those that might not understand what
you've noted below.
The ball joints are sandwiched between two steel plates, at the Gross Axle Weigh Rating there is a MINIMUM of 1,800 pounds pushing
the top of the ball joint flange into the bottom of the upper steel plate. The upper steel flange you install is formed in a |""""|
shape which stops the ball joint from moving front to rear. The bolts keep the ball joints located laterally front to rear, left to
right.
The OEM ball joint is under the lower control arm flange and has a large bolt in the center to locate and retain it laterally.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/products/full/961.jpg
Steve Ferguson replaces the 5/16" bolts with 3/8 bolts when he reinforces the OEM lower control arm.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Manny Trovao
The bolts I'm using are ASTM A307; that is what is stamped on the head of the bolt. They are the old grade 5. A307 is 60,000psi. One
square inch of A307 will support 60,000lbs.
A 7/16 bolt is 0.1050sq inch. The tensile strength is 6300psi and the shear strength is 60% of the tensile strength. All the four
bolts are doing is stopping the ball joint from coming out of the slot and it will take seven tons to shear the 4 of them.
The OEM GMC ball joints are held with 5/16 rivets. The replacement GMC ball joints come with 5/16 bolts. The I ton truck ball joints
are clamped between two steel plates.
Manny Trovao
mannystrans@gmail.com
http://www.mannystransmission.biz/
Manny's Trans / Power Drive
San Jose, California
408-937-1583
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-ton lower ball joint bolts [message #247657 is a reply to message #247653] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 20:13 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Manny,
Before your 1 ton was available I got two nice new lower control arms from Steve, I noticed one of mine had a small crack below one
of the 5/16" bolts.
After getting those control arms I decided that I would do the ones on The Blue Streak down here and Steve helped me to do so by
walking me through what it took step by step.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Manny Trovao
Rob, you're right about Steve F using 3/8" bolts as I did and some others.
So far most of the cores that I got with ball joints bolted had 5/16" bolts.
If you attended some of his presentations, and looked how bad the tips
were, well, I get alot of those bad arms. Good thing I don't need to fix
them, just cut the tips off <G>
--
Manny
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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