Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » More explanation of ethenol problems
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #246986 is a reply to message #246978] |
Thu, 10 April 2014 00:31   |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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interesting article.
It would be even better if it also gave good input towards what we can do to minimize the problems described
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #246997 is a reply to message #246978] |
Thu, 10 April 2014 09:17 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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Our local power equipment dealer actually has ethanol free, premixed with oil, fuel available in small cans. It seems someone has seen an opportunity to sell fuel that is appropriate and safe to use in these 2 stroke engines.
I do wish that our government would actually consider the opinions of engineers or other experts in the affected fields before passing regulations.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247010 is a reply to message #246997] |
Thu, 10 April 2014 10:34 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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That´s right I use that in my chainsaw etc. but way to expensive for cars
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247011 is a reply to message #247010] |
Thu, 10 April 2014 10:39 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Real 100 % gas is available readily in the South. Pay a bit more, but the improved performance generally equals the cost difference. I pity those who live in places where the politicians are determined to appeal to a small group and use the power of the government to force this stuff on the public. If you really don't like 10% ethenol, just wait for 15%.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247015 is a reply to message #247011] |
Thu, 10 April 2014 11:01 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| tphipps wrote on Thu, 10 April 2014 09:39 |
Real 100 % gas is available readily in the South. Pay a bit more, but the improved performance generally equals the cost difference. I pity those who live in places where the politicians are determined to appeal to a small group and use the power of the government to force this stuff on the public. If you really don't like 10% ethenol, just wait for 15%.
Tom, MS II
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What am I missing? Between Michigan and Arizona, I have been filling my GMC, chainsaw, weed eater and leaf blower and portable generators with Ethanol laced gasoline for at least 10 years now with no problems. In fact my 2 strokes start on the first or second pulls even after sitting. I guess if they crap out next year, I'll throw them out and still be happy that they lasted 10 years with total reliability. If my 25 year old fuel lines start leaking, I'll take that as a signal that maintenance time has come. I'm starting to feel guilty that I'm getting a chance to enjoy my equipment.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247025 is a reply to message #246993] |
Thu, 10 April 2014 13:37 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Locally, $6 per gallon implement fuel (unleaded no alcohol gasoline) is being touted for your lawn mower, weed whacker, chain saw, etc.
--johnny
________________________________
From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] More explanation of ethenol problems
They infer it won't be a problem for your weed eater. This is wrong. Ethanol and 2 strokes is a whole set of problems.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247110 is a reply to message #247015] |
Fri, 11 April 2014 11:34 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 10 April 2014 12:01 |
What am I missing? Between Michigan and Arizona, I have been filling my GMC, chainsaw, weed eater and leaf blower and portable generators with Ethanol laced gasoline for at least 10 years now with no problems. In fact my 2 strokes start on the first or second pulls even after sitting. I guess if they crap out next year, I'll throw them out and still be happy that they lasted 10 years with total reliability. If my 25 year old fuel lines start leaking, I'll take that as a signal that maintenance time has come. I'm starting to feel guilty that I'm getting a chance to enjoy my equipment.
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The 2-Stroke/Alcohol issue is very real, but also quite manufacturer and model specific. If the subject engine is as many were in days gone by, with the crankcase sealed with Permatex 2, you have a problem in the offing. Permatex 2 is soluble in alcohol - any alcohol. This will make the crankcase leak. It doesn't leak out as much as it leaks in and that makes the mixture go lean. This is death for a gasoline cooled motor. In just a short run at high power, the piston will score the cylinder wall above the exhaust port. This usually render the engine unsalvageable.
So, if you know an engine is "worm sealed" then except for the fuel lines and pump, alcohol will be no more a mistake than it is with any other engine.
Early in this fiasco, the word was circulated that the two-stroke oils were not compatible with alcohol. It was found that this was somewhat (but only somewhat) true and not as devastating as originally believed. It is not true at all with any of the ash-less 2-stroke oils manufactured in recent years. There is still a difference between outboard (water cooled) and chainsaw (air cooled) oils. Some will do both, but not all.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247186 is a reply to message #247110] |
Fri, 11 April 2014 23:34 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 10:34 |
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 10 April 2014 12:01 |
What am I missing? Between Michigan and Arizona, I have been filling my GMC, chainsaw, weed eater and leaf blower and portable generators with Ethanol laced gasoline for at least 10 years now with no problems. In fact my 2 strokes start on the first or second pulls even after sitting. I guess if they crap out next year, I'll throw them out and still be happy that they lasted 10 years with total reliability. If my 25 year old fuel lines start leaking, I'll take that as a signal that maintenance time has come. I'm starting to feel guilty that I'm getting a chance to enjoy my equipment.
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The 2-Stroke/Alcohol issue is very real, but also quite manufacturer and model specific. If the subject engine is as many were in days gone by, with the crankcase sealed with Permatex 2, you have a problem in the offing. Permatex 2 is soluble in alcohol - any alcohol. This will make the crankcase leak. It doesn't leak out as much as it leaks in and that makes the mixture go lean. This is death for a gasoline cooled motor. In just a short run at high power, the piston will score the cylinder wall above the exhaust port. This usually render the engine unsalvageable.
So, if you know an engine is "worm sealed" then except for the fuel lines and pump, alcohol will be no more a mistake than it is with any other engine.
Early in this fiasco, the word was circulated that the two-stroke oils were not compatible with alcohol. It was found that this was somewhat (but only somewhat) true and not as devastating as originally believed. It is not true at all with any of the ash-less 2-stroke oils manufactured in recent years. There is still a difference between outboard (water cooled) and chainsaw (air cooled) oils. Some will do both, but not all.
Matt
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Matt--I always like your thoughtful replies, but I have to say that I pull the rope and it runs and it runs for years. Same for my GMC although I do count on the starter. I guess my overall message is that everything I own that runs on gasoline, has run just fine for at least 15 years--possibly 20 years. I don't think that I am alone that ZDDP and ethanol have not ruined my life.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247193 is a reply to message #247186] |
Sat, 12 April 2014 01:53 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Fri, 11 |
Matt--I always like your thoughtful replies, but I have to say that I pull the rope and it runs and it runs for years. Same for my GMC although I do count on the starter. I guess my overall message is that everything I own that runs on gasoline, has run just fine for at least 15 years--possibly 20 years. I don't think that I am alone that ZDDP and ethanol have not ruined my life.
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I have the same experience. I drive up to the pump, fill it with cheap gas and drive down the road. I haven't been able to get gas without ethanol for years so I don't even think about it. Any small engine manufacturer making engines today that doesn't know about ethanol probably is missing many other important facets of engine manufacture..
As far as that goes, my rebuilt 455 gobbles oil so I get cheap oil at Wally World. I doubt it has much ZDDP. Maybe it will scuff the walls and seal the rings.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247206 is a reply to message #247186] |
Sat, 12 April 2014 08:21 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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My impression is, I get a bit better mileage inm the GMC using gas sans ethanol. My impression also is, it isn't enough to offset the cost premium for the plaqin gas. However, SOmetimes it's 87, sometimes it's 90, sometimes octane isn't specified. Luddite that I am, I'll probablty kep buying the plain stuff where I can.
--johnny'76 23' transmode norris
Braselton Ga
________________________________
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] More explanation of ethenol problems
Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 11 April 2014 10:34
> Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 10 April 2014 12:01
> > What am I missing? Between Michigan and Arizona, I have been filling my GMC, chainsaw, weed eater and leaf blower and portable generators with Ethanol laced gasoline for at least 10 years now with no problems. In fact my 2 strokes start on the first or second pulls even after sitting. I guess if they crap out next year, I'll throw them out and still be happy that they lasted 10 years with total reliability. If my 25 year old fuel lines start leaking, I'll take that as a signal that maintenance time has come. I'm starting to feel guilty that I'm getting a chance to enjoy my equipment.
>
> The 2-Stroke/Alcohol issue is very real, but also quite manufacturer and model specific. If the subject engine is as many were in days gone by, with the crankcase sealed with Permatex 2, you have a problem in the offing. Permatex 2 is soluble in alcohol - any alcohol. This will make the crankcase leak. It doesn't leak out as much as it leaks in and that makes the mixture go lean. This is death for a gasoline cooled motor. In just a short run at high power, the piston will score the cylinder wall above the exhaust port. This usually render the engine unsalvageable.
>
> So, if you know an engine is "worm sealed" then except for the fuel lines and pump, alcohol will be no more a mistake than it is with any other engine.
>
> Early in this fiasco, the word was circulated that the two-stroke oils were not compatible with alcohol. It was found that this was somewhat (but only somewhat) true and not as devastating as originally believed. It is not true at all with any of the ash-less 2-stroke oils manufactured in recent years. There is still a difference between outboard (water cooled) and chainsaw (air cooled) oils. Some will do both, but not all.
>
> Matt
Matt--I always like your thoughtful replies, but I have to say that I pull the rope and it runs and it runs for years. Same for my GMC although I do count on the starter. I guess my overall message is that everything I own that runs on gasoline, has run just fine for at least 15 years--possibly 20 years. I don't think that I am alone that ZDDP and ethanol have not ruined my life.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: More explanation of ethenol problems [message #247280 is a reply to message #247186] |
Sat, 12 April 2014 20:02 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 12 April 2014 00:34 |
Matt--I always like your thoughtful replies, but I have to say that I pull the rope and it runs and it runs for years. Same for my GMC although I do count on the starter. I guess my overall message is that everything I own that runs on gasoline, has run just fine for at least 15 years--possibly 20 years. I don't think that I am alone that ZDDP and ethanol have not ruined my life.
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Bob,
I am glad you have not had nice small engine meet its end this way. Unfortunately, in the late 80's when alcohol was coming on stream in Michigan, many did. As a result of a lawsuit being raised by a law care company, we were contracted to do some investigation. Lots of little engines died in those years, but I never found out what happened with the complaint. I don't believe that any engines as new or newer than what you have will have any issue other the than enhanced internal corrosion.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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