Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW
| [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246420] |
Fri, 04 April 2014 20:36  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Dick Paterson does good work. I need to call him back to discuss this topic more. Les made a good point about some guy's get upset when the oil pressure drops at idle. When I was in college. I got involve with some studies that involved oils at that time. One thing that I was amazed with. Was how little oil is required to properly keep an internal combustion lubed. Most manufactures had the oil light come on at a pressure from 7 to 10 PSI. Thus anything above that was considered acceptable. We once ran a 400 Chevy on a dyno for a very long time with the oil pressure restricted to no more than 15 PSI. When that engine was later disassemble for analysis. No excessive wear was found. In a properly lubed engine. The main, and rod bearing will never come in contact with the crankshaft after start up. The internal combustion engine is amazing to me. One thing is how do they stay together with a piston that has to come to a complete dead stop twice during each crankshaft revoluti
on. And then do that at at just 3,000 RPM's That's 6,000 complete stops every minute. ( I run my Yenko engines to 8,000 RPMs. That's 16,000 dead stops per minute, ) Then do that for !00, to 200,000 miles. And if that isn't enough. Is expected to not use up any oil.
Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246429 is a reply to message #246420] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 01:15  |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Looking forwards to hearing what Dick says about this subject I know he is also doing several thing to the oilways
As to internal combustion engines We are still building the same (primitiv) engines after 150 years The rotary never made it, though it seems so much smarter
I believe we soon will see a breakthrough towards a smarter, more efektiv, lngine type.
Probebly some kind of chemical/electric.
And then when we get rid of all that noise, goverments want the electric cars to make more noise !!
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246451 is a reply to message #246420] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 10:33 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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If by rotary you mean the Wankel type, I think that ship sailed.
High surface to volume issue made them difficult to run clean enough for smog. They are hard to build with higher comression ratios and have rotor seal issues.
my Dad and I tested a Wankel outboard. It had two speeds: idle, and get it.
Played with a friends RX7. It was fun but kept coming apart at higher boost
The RX8s are much more reliable. But the rotary isnt catching on.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246466 is a reply to message #246420] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 13:27 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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My Spyder was a fun car, but I don't want it back.
I got cheap because the seals were gone. All the manuals available were in German (no problem there). So, bought it, got a seal kit, not sold as a kit, you had to order each and every part. Took the engine out, knocked it apart and put in new seals and spark plugs and sold it to pay for the next semester. The biggest problem was that many areas of the US east coast had demand traffic lights that were tripped by a treadle in the road and the car was too light to trip them. If I needed the light to change (always - there was no right on red law then), I had to get out and jump on the treadle.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246472 is a reply to message #246466] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 14:28 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 12:27 |
My Spyder was a fun car, but I don't want it back.
I got cheap because the seals were gone. All the manuals available were in German (no problem there). So, bought it, got a seal kit, not sold as a kit, you had to order each and every part. Took the engine out, knocked it apart and put in new seals and spark plugs and sold it to pay for the next semester. The biggest problem was that many areas of the US east coast had demand traffic lights that were tripped by a treadle in the road and the car was too light to trip them. If I needed the light to change (always - there was no right on red law then), I had to get out and jump on the treadle.
Matt
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GM had a rotary tooled (by Hydramatic) and it was ready to go. The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field. I have a model (turbocharged) used for the patent somewhere around here. In later years, we had a V6 2 stroke ready to go, but in the end, durability issues caused a last minute cancellation.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246483 is a reply to message #246472] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 16:33 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
I love the "insider" stories you provide vis-à-vis GM!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob de Kruyff
GM had a rotary tooled (by Hydramatic) and it was ready to go. The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The
day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived
hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent
Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field. I have a model (turbocharged) used for the patent somewhere around
here. In later years, we had a V6 2 stroke ready to go, but in the end, durability issues caused a last minute cancellation.
--
Bob
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246490 is a reply to message #246483] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 19:40 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| USAussie wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 15:33 |
Bob,
I love the "insider" stories you provide vis-à-vis GM!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob de Kruyff
GM had a rotary tooled (by Hydramatic) and it was ready to go. The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The
day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived
hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent
Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field. I have a model (turbocharged) used for the patent somewhere around
here. In later years, we had a V6 2 stroke ready to go, but in the end, durability issues caused a last minute cancellation.
--
Bob
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I really miss it. I probably should write the book since I worked with the best (and most notorious) of them Duntov, Mair, DeLorian, Cole, Winchell, King, Dorn, Eaton . Those truly were amazing times.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246494 is a reply to message #246472] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 20:17 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 14:28 |
The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field.
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I'll add two comments here; the AMC Pacer was queued up to use the GM rotary (would fit nicely under that short low hood). When GM canned the rotary AMC was forced to shoehorn their straight six under the hood and front-of-dash.
And Bob, there may have been proto Monza / Starfire H-cars with an Olds 260 but that combo never made production. The small block Chev 262 & 305 were the only V8s installed. 260s found their way into A (rwd), B and G cars
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246497 is a reply to message #246494] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 20:33 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| mrgmc3 wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 19:17 |
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 14:28 |
The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field.
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I'll add two comments here; the AMC Pacer was queued up to use the GM rotary (would fit nicely under that short low hood). When GM canned the rotary AMC was forced to shoehorn their straight six under the hood and front-of-dash.
And Bob, there may have been proto Monza / Starfire H-cars with an Olds 260 but that combo never made production. The small block Chev 262 & 305 were the only V8s installed. 260s found their way into A (rwd), B and G cars
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You're probably right since the nameplates were still stand alone car companies and Chev probably wouldn/t have welcomed an Olds.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246499 is a reply to message #246497] |
Sat, 05 April 2014 20:40 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 19:33 |
| mrgmc3 wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 19:17 |
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 14:28 |
The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field.
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I'll add two comments here; the AMC Pacer was queued up to use the GM rotary (would fit nicely under that short low hood). When GM canned the rotary AMC was forced to shoehorn their straight six under the hood and front-of-dash.
And Bob, there may have been proto Monza / Starfire H-cars with an Olds 260 but that combo never made production. The small block Chev 262 & 305 were the only V8s installed. 260s found their way into A (rwd), B and G cars
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You're probably right since the nameplates were still stand alone car companies and Chev probably wouldn/t have welcomed an Olds.
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I just wiki'd the Monza and the engine line-up was even more complicated than I remember.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246525 is a reply to message #246490] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 07:59 |
Chuck and Lureen
Messages: 16
Registered: April 2013
Location: West Michigan
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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I was a new products engineer and manager at Sealed Power Corporation during the Wankel engine frenzy. As a leading supplier of piston rings, our company was very involved in the rotary engine development programs at GM, Ford, Caterpillar, and several other domestic and foreign engine manufacturers. The number and complexity of the Wankel sealing package (approximately 60 sealing components per rotor vs. a total of 40 much less complex piston ring components in an eight cylinder engine) would have dramatically increased our business opportunities. We supplied many, perhaps a majority, of the sealing components for our customers' prototype builds. The most interesting project I personally worked with was for an Ingersoll Rand natural gas powered Wankel built in single rotor (41 liter 550HP) and two rotor (82 liter 1100HP) configurations. These engines used rotors approximately one meter across and 300mm wide. My two-person New Products Department developed and supplied all of the apex, button, compression, and oil seal assemblies for all of their production of approximately 100 engines in the late 1970's and early 1980's. The engine was used to drive pumps for natural gas pipelines. The Ingersoll Rand Wankel is considered the largest ever produced and one of the very few engines reaching true production in the US.
Images at:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/EDGE540/CurtisWrightRotaryEngine.jpg
and:
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/comment-image/96111.jpg
More info at:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/rotaryhistory.htm#Part 3
Chuck and Lureen Mullally
West Michigan
1975 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246531 is a reply to message #246420] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 08:44 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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We raced Mazda Rx2s back in the 70s in the IMSA RS series, and they were a blast. I attribute my hearing difficulties to the scream of those unruffled rotaries back in the day, but wouldn't trade those fun memories.
It's a shame that emission, mileage, and sealing problems kept these engines from wider use. They were powerful little screamers!
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246532 is a reply to message #246472] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 08:44 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 05 April 2014 15:28 |
GM had a rotary tooled (by Hydramatic) and it was ready to go. The Vega based Monza was the intro car and the Corvette was next. The day Ed Cole retired, vigilantes came through the engineering offices and confiscated anything rotary related. A few pieces survived hidden away in people's desks. The Monza was quickly redesigned with rectangular headlights and a lowered tunnel. The subsequent Olds 260 quickly collapsed the front suspension in the field. I have a model (turbocharged) used for the patent somewhere around here. In later years, we had a V6 2 stroke ready to go, but in the end, durability issues caused a last minute cancellation.
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The Ypsilanti Automotive Heritage Museum has a complete, as in ready to install, GM Wankle. GMCES was there a few years back and I was wandering and looking a came across it. I had been told that no exampled survived. (Word from highly placed friend.) But there it was.... I asked the owner/curator and he said that one day he was there doing things when he got a call from someone he new at HydraMatic. Said caller had a crate that might be interesting to him, if wanted, he would get it delivered.
Conditions: Do not open it in the presents of the driver and do not tell anyone who it came from. If you decide you don't want it, scrap it.
Well, allowed as he was struck dumb when he did open it. He, like I, thought there there were none, but there it was and probably still is.
An interesting thought there too, even if the new Government Motors wants it, they can't reclaim it from the Hudson store because that GM no longer exists.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246539 is a reply to message #246525] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 11:02 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Chuck and Lureen wrote on Sun, 06 April 2014 06:59 |
I was a new products engineer and manager at Sealed Power Corporation during the Wankel engine frenzy. As a leading supplier of piston rings, our company was very involved in the rotary engine development programs at GM, Ford, Caterpillar, and several other domestic and foreign engine manufacturers. The number and complexity of the Wankel sealing package (approximately 60 sealing components per rotor vs. a total of 40 much less complex piston ring components in an eight cylinder engine) would have dramatically increased our business opportunities. We supplied many, perhaps a majority, of the sealing components for our customers' prototype builds. The most interesting project I personally worked with was for an Ingersoll Rand natural gas powered Wankel built in single rotor (41 liter 550HP) and two rotor (82 liter 1100HP) configurations. These engines used rotors approximately one meter across and 300mm wide. My two-person New Products Department developed and supplied all of the apex, button, compression, and oil seal assemblies for all of their production of approximately 100 engines in the late 1970's and early 1980's. The engine was used to drive pumps for natural gas pipelines. The Ingersoll Rand Wankel is considered the largest ever produced and one of the very few engines reaching true production in the US.
Images at:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/EDGE540/CurtisWrightRotaryEngine.jpg
and:
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/comment-image/96111.jpg
More info at:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/rotaryhistory.htm#Part 3
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all I can say is WOW !
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps. And our amazing GMC engines. WOW [message #246547 is a reply to message #246539] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 14:22 |
james Ernst
Messages: 79
Registered: December 2013
Location: Lincoln, NE
Karma: -4
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Hi Bob, I was wondering, did you know Duane "Zoom" Zenner by any chance?
He was with Oldsmobile for years.
On Apr 6, 2014 11:02 AM, "Bob de Kruyff" <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Chuck and Lureen wrote on Sun, 06 April 2014 06:59
> > I was a new products engineer and manager at Sealed Power Corporation
> during the Wankel engine frenzy. As a leading supplier of piston rings, our
> company was very involved in the rotary engine development programs at GM,
> Ford, Caterpillar, and several other domestic and foreign engine
> manufacturers. The number and complexity of the Wankel sealing package
> (approximately 60 sealing components per rotor vs. a total of 40 much less
> complex piston ring components in an eight cylinder engine) would have
> dramatically increased our business opportunities. We supplied many,
> perhaps a majority, of the sealing components for our customers' prototype
> builds. The most interesting project I personally worked with was for an
> Ingersoll Rand natural gas powered Wankel built in single rotor (41 liter
> 550HP) and two rotor (82 liter 1100HP) configurations. These engines used
> rotors approximately one meter across and 300mm wide. My two-person New
> Products Department developed and supplied all o
> f the apex, button, compression, and oil seal assemblies for all of their
> production of approximately 100 engines in the late 1970's and early
> 1980's. The engine was used to drive pumps for natural gas pipelines. The
> Ingersoll Rand Wankel is considered the largest ever produced and one of
> the very few engines reaching true production in the US.
> >
> > Images at:
> >
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/EDGE540/CurtisWrightRotaryEngine.jpg
> >
> > and:
> > http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/comment-image/96111.jpg
> >
> > More info at:
> > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/rotaryhistory.htm#Part 3
>
> all I can say is WOW !
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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