| olga is ill-part 2 [message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 05:27  |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Well took out the cooler lines, that did give me a little more pressure 50 psi at start op. falling as watertemps rise
I do feel waterttemp rises very fast even as the thermostats opens quite early temps do op to 212 F just idling and rising at driving
Oil pressure down to 15 psi.
Fan clutch seems to work ( although I know nothing about them)
I turned the fan after I stopped the engine and it had alot of resistence. will try again when it is cold
I could feel a bit of movment in the fan bearing but do not know how crusial that is.
I have had a waterpump seize on me, but could a waterpump just work badly ?
Engine starts fine and revs fine ( standstil) and oilpressure rises with revs.
Have not yet been on the road to realy heat up the engine
I will go out now and have a look at that timing chain
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
[Updated on: Sun, 02 March 2014 05:28] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #241980 is a reply to message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 07:23  |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ok took of old fuelpump checking timing chain bit difficult to asess, seems a bit loose guessing .5" at loosest point Should not be enough to jump?
Difficult to be completly sure without dismanteling
I double checked timing sequence OK
Still wondering about the fan, never heard the famous roar not now, not when driving 70 on the motorway I can turn her by hand but with condiderable resitence both after turning of the engine and cold ?
and wondering about the waterpump as she heats up so fast.
Going to make a blocking plate for the fuelpumphole so she can run again.
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #241981 is a reply to message #241980] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 07:27 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If it is over heating, have you thought, as a test, about removing the thermostat and running it that way to see what happens?
What weight oil are you using? I run Shell Rotella 15W40.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #241982 is a reply to message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 07:48 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
removing thermostat has been on my mind, just wondering what it would tell me, of course I can test the thermostate but I can feel water going into the top hose at 180
What a waste- I had bought some redpoint 10-30 just to be good to her. should have used som cheap oil to flush her first
I am leaning towards a timing chain problem
Doing that would give me a new waterpump as well and a good look at the fanclutch
Is there a step by step for doing the chain with a list of nessecary parts?
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #241991 is a reply to message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 09:14 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm not sure your oil pressure and performance issue are the same problem.
Regarding the performance, are you SURE you have not cross wired the plug wires when you did the distributor? That is, have the correct wires going to the correct sockets in the distributor. When I was in the army, a bunch of my supposedly knowledgeable car buddies convinced me to change an engine in the barracks parking lot. Never could get it to run right. Turned out to have the plug wires going to the wrong cylinders.
Regarding oil pressure, what kind of oil are you running. A thinner oil and/or synthetic oil will read lower pressure. My 'new' engine has a new 'stock' oil pump instead of the high volume pump. My oil pressure is lower than normal. At operating temp, it runs 35-40 on the road at speed and 18-15 at idle after a run. Low enough that the 15psi alarm on my Digipanel barks at me from time to time. Originally it was even lower (right after the rebuild) but I was running synthetic 10-30. Changed to 20-50 Dino oil and it's in the acceptable range. It originally worried me quite a bit but Dick Paterson told me it was fine.
I agree with others in suggesting blocking off the oil cooler lines just to eliminate potential issues. I'd go after the performance issue first.
I sympathize with you...good luck.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #241993 is a reply to message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 09:32 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yes i re checked the ignition sequence that was alright
I took out the thermostat and cooked it , seems to open ok
I did ruin the thermostat gasket so I cant start the engine now
Wil have to buy a new gasket tomorrow, if I am luckey they have the right thermostat also Just as wel put a new one in there
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242001 is a reply to message #241996] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 11:45 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On the subject of distributor firing order, I hope that you did not follow the diagram in the maintenance manual. It is shown wrong there. Gene has the corrected diagram on his web site. I'll go dig it out if necessary.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242005 is a reply to message #242001] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 12:20 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks for your concern Ken It so easy that the numbers are on the distributor.
Anyway when we did the leads and hats, we did 1 at the time.
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242012 is a reply to message #241982] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 13:01 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| appie wrote on Sun, 02 March 2014 06:48 |
removing thermostat has been on my mind, just wondering what it would tell me, of course I can test the thermostate but I can feel water going into the top hose at 180
What a waste- I had bought some redpoint 10-30 just to be good to her. should have used som cheap oil to flush her first
I am leaning towards a timing chain problem
Doing that would give me a new waterpump as well and a good look at the fanclutch
Is there a step by step for doing the chain with a list of nessecary parts?
|
Appie,
If the engine still has the original timing chain, it would be prudent to change it anyway. It is my understanding that the plastic tipped teeth on the cam gear are subject to wear more as a function of age than mileage. As you mentioned, you can then take the opportunity to renew the fuel pump, water pump, fan clutch, belts, hoses, and radiator if needed.
I changed mine out at about 68,000 miles, less than a year after I bought the coach, and did a pictorial on it:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5504-timing-chain-radiator-project-05-09.html
Maybe you'll find it helpful.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242027 is a reply to message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 15:38 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Fan clutch. A very slight slop in bearing is normal. A very slight silicone leak is ok. Fan should only engage when conditions are severe, not light driving in winter. If stat is stuck closed then air flow to clutch bimetalic spring will be COLD even if engine is overheating due to closed stat and not engage the fan. After sitting overnight you should get fan noise on a cold start and driveoff. This should go away in the first 1/8 mile or so as the gravity settled fluid redistributes to the inactive side due to the low temp on the bimetalic spring valve. It's then in it's unlocked state and is speed limited to a lower RPM regardless of engine speed. At this point if you shut it off and spin fan vigorously by hand it should spin but not more than a turn max and stop. Should have a slight smooth resistance to it. If binding or free wheels, then bearing is bad or fluid has leaked out. This will give you a basic pass/fail, but you need a hot high load test to see if it really works when needed. Can't do that now. Also years of road grim can pack up on the bimetalic spring clinging to moist area and causing it to bind. Spray it down with WD40 tube extension a few times to wash off the muddy grit and that can help free up the rotation if the valve.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242028 is a reply to message #242027] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 15:48 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
John thanks for your input as I am bit suspicious of the clutch it might be stuck where it is. Will spray with w40 tomorrow
Can you explane what you mean by :If stat is stuck closed
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242029 is a reply to message #242028] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 15:49 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Oh sorry I understand thermostat
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242075 is a reply to message #241976] |
Sun, 02 March 2014 19:21 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
""I will go out now and have a look at that timing chain
""
That won't affect oil pressure.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242120 is a reply to message #242075] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 01:11 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That is right Bob,
That is what is confusing me-
Main problem- loss of power
By-problem high temp- low pressure
I have new cauges and senders-so I do not know if temp and press is different from what it was before ???
new temp gauge showed 60C stable-knew that could not be right new sender made it as described-Who knows the sender might be completely nacked. Still leaves the other problems
Now is the engine working wronly and so heating and making oil thin
OR is the cooling wrong thus heating making oil thin and not working the valves right
Or is oil pressure bad etc etc etc
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242137 is a reply to message #241976] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 07:59 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Installed a new thermostat ( sorry no shaw available here- wil replace later)
Now looking at the clutch
My understanding, please correct me if I am wrong
when cold the clutch should be engaged = fan hard to turn
Loosens up shirtly after startup then engages when hot
Now my fan wil spin 1 blades at stone cold, cool or hot
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242145 is a reply to message #241976] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 08:54 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Appie, let's break this down logically.
Everything was fine. You 'redid' the distributor and changed the oil. NOW you IMMEDIATELY have two major problems:
1- Loss of power- knock - overheating
2- Low oil pressure
Is this correct? Did the problems show up immediately or was there several miles of normal behavior before the problems showed up? You have not said but I assume it happened right away.
In 30 years of being a computer geek for Hewlett-Packard, my experience is that ALMOST always, the customer did something to cause the problem. Not intentionally of course but it got to the point where we built a 'black box' into the operating system that would track system changes. The customer would say "I didn't DO anything!" but the footprint would almost always show that they had even if they didn't know they did. My experience working on cars all my life matches this experience. The problems I have are frequently caused by something I did.
What can cause the symptoms you describe and are they related? Let's list the possibilities.
1-A Ignition timing ... knock, loss of power and overheating
1-A-1 Plug wiring wrong will cause the problems you describe.
1-A-2 Timing - Base timing off Not on #1 TDC
1-A-3 Timing - Slipped timing chain.
1-A-4 ???
1-B Mechanical failure -- worst case senario
1-B-1 Spun bearing, knock and lower oil pressure, doesn't account for power loss or overheating
1-B-2 Broken lifter, knock and lower oil pressure and down one cylinder on power.
1-B-3 ???
2-A Low Oil Pressure Possibly a disconnected problem from #1
2-A-1 Thinner oil (gives lower oil pressure)
2-A-2 Restricted flow (plugged filter, oil pump screen)
2-A-3 Bad reading (get a capillarity tube gauge)
2-A-4 ???
Appie, I'm not trying to insult you but the odds of these things JUST HAPPENING exactly when you worked on the distributor and changed the oil are just astronomical. Especially when you consider all the symptoms match things that could easily be caused by plug wires or timing or oil changes.
For sure pull an oil sample but since the oil is brand new, you might not see much results.
I would quadruple check the plug wiring, direction of rotation, and make sure your wires are correct and the distributor is not 180 degrees out, that is #1 piston is on the compression stroke. Make sure you're looking at the same cylinder numbers as the Olds engine. Some brands are different. Verify with the cast numbers on the intake manifold. Some motors will run 180 degrees out of phase...ask me how I know this...  This is my #1 cause of your power/knock/overheating problem.
Use a stethoscope and try to verify which cylinder has the noise. Once you find it, pull the plug wire on that cylinder and see if the noise changes. Rod bearings will frequently not make as much or any noise if the cylinder doesn't fire. If you don't have a stethoscope, just pull the plug wires and listen for the noise to change....that will be the cylinder with the problem.
Then I'd pull the valve covers and verify the valve train is working. A collapsed or broken lifter won't open the valve correctly and cause noise. A BROKEN or out of position lifter will allow oil to flow out of the gallery and you'll see reduced oil pressure.
Hope this helps and good luck. Btw, I'm not a professional mechanic or engineer just a shadetree hack who has been where you are...more than once.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2 [message #242151 is a reply to message #241976] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 09:37 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
As long as the fan is working, (moving a fair volume of air) that's not the main issue right now considering low outside temps.
Working backwards, did you have to mess with the carb idle speed after working on the distributor? That would suggest a timing issue and need to erroneously compensate by changing carb. If idle speed is unchanged, then that indicates timing is about the same as pre distributor work. Did you do the RPM knock test I mentioned earlier?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: olga is ill-part 2- now Olga is getting better? [message #242159 is a reply to message #242152] |
Mon, 03 March 2014 10:44 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry you are not completely wrong:
After the distributor job she was just beautifull- nothing there
Then one day she drove lousy and I thought I emptied the tank becourse of me conecting the new cauge showing the wrong tank ( bummer) Then I found out that there was no fuelfilter so I bought a fancy Edelbrock inline filter and cleaned the carb
That did not help much
So we looked at the distribution to see if the new pin held out That was fine and we replaced the modul to be on the safe side.
That help a lot- but we stil had the symptomes described
Today I changed the thermostate for a 180F that helped on the temp problem keeping her at about 90 C
But stil she would not pickup under load ( no knocking)
Now this filter has been on the back of my mind on now it jump up.
So I took out the filter- now she picks up- still kicks back sometimes when I push her badly and not quite as before Just had 1 knock? could be anything I gues- Hope all this goes away with som fine adjusting?
As to the fan: right after stopping the fan was more loose would spin a quarter revolution Maybe I just have one of those rare silent fans?
Oil pressure is stil low at 10-15 cruising-thinking about cleaning the hole the sender is mounted in ? if there is a lot of crudge?
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
|
|
|
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
