| [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 16:35  |
Gary Carlton
Messages: 59
Registered: February 2014
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I've just purchased a 78 Royale that I'm now driving 1500 miles home. The issue is starting the coach is difficult as when I turn the key to engage the starter, nothing happens. Dash lights power up but not even a solenoid click on engagement. BattBoost has no effect. If I cycle the switch a number of times it will eventually catch and start but it is becoming more infrequent. I'm guessing the ignition switch is going bad but would love opinions and fix procedures.
Thanks in advance
Gary Carlton
On my way home to Bellingham WA
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'78 Royale, "Road Grub"
Bellingham, WA
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240501 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 16:55  |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Gary
You might be right about the switch
Thats a drag if you are on the road
You can find that switch on left side of the steeringcollum it is held be 2 nuts, if yoy loosen those you can move the switch and maybe make it work that way.
Otherwise if your on the road-I would find some wire and make a temperary connection between live and the starter solenoid
Good luck
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240507 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 17:12 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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See if it makes any difference with tilt down or up. Switch might be a little out of adjustment.
| Gary Carlton wrote on Wed, 19 February 2014 17:35 |
I've just purchased a 78 Royale that I'm now driving 1500 miles home. The issue is starting the coach is difficult as when I turn the key to engage the starter, nothing happens. Dash lights power up but not even a solenoid click on engagement. BattBoost has no effect. If I cycle the switch a number of times it will eventually catch and start but it is becoming more infrequent. I'm guessing the ignition switch is going bad but would love opinions and fix procedures.
Thanks in advance
Gary Carlton
On my way home to Bellingham WA
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240509 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 17:33 |
An87ttype
Messages: 157
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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I had the same problem. It was out of adjustment . Tilt the wheel all the way up and see if it helps. That's a good indicator the rod is a little worn and needs adjustment.
1975 Eleganza II
Hudson Valley NY
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240514 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 18:59 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Get a long insulated alligator test lead and clip to the start terminal and run up to meter in cabin. If 12V when you turn to crank then look to replace starter , if not check neutral safety and ignition switch adj
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240515 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 18:57 |
rallymaster
Messages: 662
Registered: February 2004
Location: North Plains, ORYGUN
Karma: -4
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Gary, try wiggling the shift lever in the park position while holding the
key in the start position.
might work
RonC
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:35:35 -0800 Gary Carlton <arcsine@comcast.net>
writes:
> I've just purchased a 78 Royale that I'm now driving 1500 miles home.
> The issue is starting the coach is difficult as when I turn the key
> to engage the starter, nothing happens. Dash lights power up but not
> even a solenoid click on engagement. BattBoost has no effect. If I
> cycle the switch a number of times it will eventually catch and
> start but it is becoming more infrequent. I'm guessing the ignition
> switch is going bad but would love opinions and fix procedures.
> Thanks in advance
> Gary Carlton
> On my way home to Bellingham WA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
Ron & Linda Clark
1978 Eleganza II
North Plains, ORYGUN
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Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240523 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 20:25 |
quadracerx1
Messages: 207
Registered: April 2013
Location: Puyallup, Washington
Karma: 1
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I was having the exact same problem last week...LOL I even thought it was tied to the entry door interlock...LOL but no such thing...
Thanks for posting this... Now I know what to look for too...
Steve
75 26' GMC Glenbrook
Puyallup, Washington
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240529 is a reply to message #240498] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 21:02 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Gary Carlton wrote on Wed, 19 February 2014 15:35 |
I've just purchased a 78 Royale that I'm now driving 1500 miles home. The issue is starting the coach is difficult as when I turn the key to engage the starter, nothing happens. Dash lights power up but not even a solenoid click on engagement. BattBoost has no effect. If I cycle the switch a number of times it will eventually catch and start but it is becoming more infrequent. I'm guessing the ignition switch is going bad but would love opinions and fix procedures.
Thanks in advance
Gary Carlton
On my way home to Bellingham WA
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Could be the neutral start switch
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240544 is a reply to message #240536] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 01:47 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Well you have had a whole list of things a that could cause you problem.
Ignition switch
Ignition switch adjustment
Neutral safety switch
Neutral safety switch adjustment
Worn keylock / pull rod
Bad solenoid
Bad connections
Bad wiring
Frozen water in the starter (primarily the bendix engagement)
All of the above and a few more that I can think of are possibilities. There are even suggestions that you modify some of the solenoid and battery cable wiring. My response to those suggestions is there were over 12,000 other GMCs out there that ran just fine without those modifications. Find th real problem and fix it. I could give you some more guesses but that will just add to the confusion.
The question at this point is are you going to shot gun this problem or diagnose it down to the failing component?
I suggest that you gaher all of you symptoms and get out your meter and wiring diagram, and start looking for the missing voltage. When you find it you can back up from that point and find the failing, worn, or maladjusted component. Only at that point should you be considering the proper repair action. It will be a lot quicker and cheaper if you approach the problem this way.
JMHO
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240546 is a reply to message #240498] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 02:26 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Ken you are absolutely right
But there is a difference between fixing thing the right way and a roadside repair just to get you home and then do it right
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240547 is a reply to message #240546] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 03:33 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| appie wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 02:26 |
Ken you are absolutely right
But there is a difference between fixing thing the right way and a roadside repair just to get you home and then do it right
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I definitely agree with that.
As we started out for last fall's GMCMI rally in Branson, Blaine's coach would not start in his driveway. He stated that it has been doing that off and on for months. Finally it did start.
We decided to do the shotgun thing because it would not fail again. We did not know when or if it would fail again during the trip. Also there was some disagreement on whether the solenoid was clicking on the failed start attempt or not. I did not hear it but I can not hear much anyway. So we pulled it inside on the 4 post hoist an went to work shotgunning the problem.
We pulled the starter and took it and the solenoid apart. There were no obvious issues so we cleaned and shined he armature and solenoid contacts. Upon re-installation we cleaned the starter cable. We also ran an additional 16 ga. wire from the solenoid coil up to a location near the starting battery and left it there disconnected. We then disconnected every battery and starter cable and shined them up. When we reinstalled them I added tooth washers and anti-oxidation grease to all connections.
I felt we had all of the heavy power stuff covered but we still did not know if the real problem was in the solenoid energize circuit. We also did not want to be repairing it on the road. That is where the added wire came it. If we had a solenoid energize problem, all we had to do was touch the added wire to the positive post of the engine battery and it would bypass the key, neutral safety switch, and associated wiring in the coach.
Well, that was 6 months ago and he has not had another problem. So it appears our shotgun approach did work in this case. We still do not know what the real failing component was. I told him to leave the added wire installed for another year just in case someday he needs it on the road.
I hate working on intermittent problems. Our shotgun solution in this case was our only way of heading off or dealing with a potential failure on the road. It appears to have worked.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240559 is a reply to message #240544] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 08:10 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 02:47 |
Well you have had a whole list of things a that could cause you problem.
Ignition switch
Ignition switch adjustment
Neutral safety switch
Neutral safety switch adjustment
Worn keylock / pull rod
Bad solenoid
Bad connections
Bad wiring
Frozen water in the starter (primarily the bendix engagement)
All of the above and a few more that I can think of are possibilities. There are even suggestions that you modify some of the solenoid and battery cable wiring. My response to those suggestions is there were over 12,000 other GMCs out there that ran just fine without those modifications. Find th real problem and fix it. I could give you some more guesses but that will just add to the confusion.
The question at this point is are you going to shot gun this problem or diagnose it down to the failing component?
I suggest that you gaher all of you symptoms and get out your meter and wiring diagram, and start looking for the missing voltage. When you find it you can back up from that point and find the failing, worn, or maladjusted component. Only at that point should you be considering the proper repair action. It will be a lot quicker and cheaper if you approach the problem this way.
JMHO
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Ken,
As much as I appreciate your diagnostic skills, I have to add a line, I would also like to rearrange them in order of ease of testing and correction:
Neutral safety switch
Neutral safety switch adjustment
Ignition switch adjustment
Ignition switch
Worn keylock / pull rod
Bad wiring
Bad connections
Bad solenoid
Bad Started <===
Frozen water in the starter (primarily the bendix engagement)
I discovered (real up close and personal) that a worn to complete uselessness starter can masquerade as just bad connections. The real problem is that when you by-pass all the other stuff, you still don't get any cranking.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240565 is a reply to message #240559] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 09:34 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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That is fine Matt. I really was not trying to include everything possible. I was trying to show a wide range of previous guesses. He said that he could not hear the solenoid click, so I did not include the starter in the list.
I really want him collect his symptoms and then do a orderly diagnosis rather than just throw parts at it. Too many times I tell people what it might be and they just go throw parts at it.
So now many times I'm reluctant to tell people what part it "might" be. I would rather tell them how to diagnose the problem properly.
Thanks for added suggestion to the list.
I'm thinking his problem will probably be in the steering column and linkage to the ignition switch.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] 78 Royale Starting Issue [message #240572 is a reply to message #240547] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 11:20 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 01:33 |
| appie wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 02:26 |
Ken you are absolutely right
But there is a difference between fixing thing the right way and a roadside repair just to get you home and then do it right
|
I definitely agree with that.
As we started out for last fall's GMCMI rally in Branson, Blaine's coach would not start in his driveway. He stated that it has been doing that off and on for months. Finally it did start.
We decided to do the shotgun thing because it would not fail again. We did not know when or if it would fail again during the trip. Also there was some disagreement on whether the solenoid was clicking on the failed start attempt or not. I did not hear it but I can not hear much anyway. So we pulled it inside on the 4 post hoist an went to work shotgunning the problem.
We pulled the starter and took it and the solenoid apart. There were no obvious issues so we cleaned and shined he armature and solenoid contacts. Upon re-installation we cleaned the starter cable. We also ran an additional 16 ga. wire from the solenoid coil up to a location near the starting battery and left it there disconnected. We then disconnected every battery and starter cable and shined them up. When we reinstalled them I added tooth washers and anti-oxidation grease to all connections.
I felt we had all of the heavy power stuff covered but we still did not know if the real problem was in the solenoid energize circuit. We also did not want to be repairing it on the road. That is where the added wire came it. If we had a solenoid energize problem, all we had to do was touch the added wire to the positive post of the engine battery and it would bypass the key, neutral safety switch, and associated wiring in the coach.
Well, that was 6 months ago and he has not had another problem. So it appears our shotgun approach did work in this case. We still do not know what the real failing component was. I told him to leave the added wire installed for another year just in case someday he needs it on the road.
I hate working on intermittent problems. Our shotgun solution in this case was our only way of heading off or dealing with a potential failure on the road. It appears to have worked.
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Good idea I did that extra wire modification to a Toyota camary once as about once a month the car wouldn't start for an hour or so but I connected it to a switch because the owner was afraid of electricity. Once a month or so he had to use the added switch he was happy and we didn't have to take the car apart.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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