Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets
| [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239732] |
Wed, 12 February 2014 16:26  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
The other day we were talking about valve cover gaskets and I noted "there are cork, combination cork and rubber, and rubber gaskets
available"
I received the following from a GMCer who wishes to remain anonymous.
Please do not forget the combination of rubberized cork and steel used in the Tuff-Cork gaskets from Victor-Reinz (Dana). The metal
layer is sandwiched in between layers of the other material and prevents deforming. The part number for our engines is VS38305TC as
per the attached image. These do not leak and can be re-used, I cement them to the valve cover for easy removal.
Regarding the oil pan gasket C. Boyd noted:
Auto-Zone shows Fel-Pro oil pan gasket # OS30471C as standard for the 350 diesel and is shown as optional for the 455 and 403.
This gasket also has a steel core which won't extrude.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239746 is a reply to message #239732] |
Wed, 12 February 2014 17:00  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Rob, them's hard to find, but they work great. I use the same brand on
Small block Chev with 4 hold down bolts. They do not leak, and can be used
over several times. Your anon friend knows the good stuff when he finds it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> G'day,
>
> The other day we were talking about valve cover gaskets and I noted "there
> are cork, combination cork and rubber, and rubber gaskets
> available"
>
> I received the following from a GMCer who wishes to remain anonymous.
>
> Please do not forget the combination of rubberized cork and steel used in
> the Tuff-Cork gaskets from Victor-Reinz (Dana). The metal
> layer is sandwiched in between layers of the other material and prevents
> deforming. The part number for our engines is VS38305TC as
> per the attached image. These do not leak and can be re-used, I cement
> them to the valve cover for easy removal.
>
> Regarding the oil pan gasket C. Boyd noted:
>
> Auto-Zone shows Fel-Pro oil pan gasket # OS30471C as standard for the 350
> diesel and is shown as optional for the 455 and 403.
>
> This gasket also has a steel core which won't extrude.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239751 is a reply to message #239746] |
Wed, 12 February 2014 17:20 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| James Hupy wrote on Wed, 12 February 2014 18:00 |
Rob, them's hard to find, but they work great. I use the same brand on Small block Chev with 4 hold down bolts. They do not leak, and can be used over several times. Your anon friend knows the good stuff when he finds it.
Jim Hupy
|
Jim,
I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
Maybe you remember that I was McCord Gaskets (RIP) aftermarket, racing and heavy duty guy for about five years.
And, yes, the DAna part is a good gasket. We had one I liked better but it was more expensive and is no longer available.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239757 is a reply to message #239751] |
Wed, 12 February 2014 17:37 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Matt, no I was not sleeping through several messages about gaskets from
you. I knew that you have spent a bunch of your working career in the
gasket business. I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except
where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets. I have made my own from
stock gasket sheets, not cylinder heads, for old stuff no longer produced
for years. Steel gaskets are tricky things, and require an installer to pay
attention to what he or she might be doing when it comes to preparing the
mating surfaces. But I have used the "perma-torque" blue sandwich gaskets
with great success. If a gasket like a final drive cover gasket for a gmc
is not damaged when the cover is removed, and was not leaking when it came
apart, I do not have any worries about using one over again. I am
constantly amazed by the depth of the knowledge base present in the GMC
community, and for the most part on the GMCnet.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Wed, 12 February 2014 18:00
> > Rob, them's hard to find, but they work great. I use the same brand on
> Small block Chev with 4 hold down bolts. They do not leak, and can be used
> over several times. Your anon friend knows the good stuff when he finds it.
> > Jim Hupy
>
> Jim,
>
> I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You
> may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
>
> Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those
> same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was
> disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
>
> Maybe you remember that I was McCord Gaskets (RIP) aftermarket, racing and
> heavy duty guy for about five years.
>
> And, yes, the DAna part is a good gasket. We had one I liked better but it
> was more expensive and is no longer available.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic,
> once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
> '73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239780 is a reply to message #239757] |
Wed, 12 February 2014 19:13 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Wed, 12 February 2014 18:37 |
Matt, no I was not sleeping through several messages about gaskets from you. I knew that you have spent a bunch of your working career in the gasket business. I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets. I have made my own from stock gasket sheets, not cylinder heads, for old stuff no longer produced for years. Steel gaskets are tricky things, and require an installer to pay attention to what he or she might be doing when it comes to preparing the mating surfaces. But I have used the "perma-torque" blue sandwich gaskets with great success. If a gasket like a final drive cover gasket for a gmc is not damaged when the cover is removed, and was not leaking when it came apart, I do not have any worries about using one over again. I am constantly amazed by the depth of the knowledge base present in the GMC community, and for the most part on the GMCnet.
Jim Hupy
|
Jim,
You are so right about embossed steel gaskets (like Chevy used as OE for years). They were my nemesis until I finally manged to figure out what the problems were and you are very correct. The mating surfaces have to to be very flat and clean. And, if the assembler drops the head on from more than a finger thickness, the embossment will probably be damaged and the part will loose some of its load distribution and may leak. Even these can be reused if push comes to shove, get the spray on gasket coating and give it a light coat.
I hope you understand that my remark was not targeted at you. it is just one of those things that I keep repeating. Like,"If you think you need a rough surface to hold the gasket in, you are doing wrong." And, "If you thing retorquing does no good, you don't understand how fasteners work*". Now I do have a problem with the last one because so many cylinder heads are torque-to-yield that re-establishing the fastener tension is not simple any longer.
And yes, the knowledge in this group is flat out awesome. Me, I may know engines and some other stuff, but we have people here that could reassemble a coach from scrap parts and it would still be a better ride than a Winibargo.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239902 is a reply to message #239757] |
Thu, 13 February 2014 17:35 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Are you saying you reuse head gaskets that are not thin steel head gaskets?
I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except
where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Matt Colie <[email |
matt7323tze@gmail.com[/email]> wrote:
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Wed, 12 February 2014 18:00
> > Rob, them's hard to find, but they work great. I use the same brand on
> Small block Chev with 4 hold down bolts. They do not leak, and can be used
> over several times. Your anon friend knows the good stuff when he finds it.
> > Jim Hupy
>
> Jim,
>
> I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You
> may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
>
> Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those
> same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was
> disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
>
> Maybe you remember that I was McCord Gaskets (RIP) aftermarket, racing and
> heavy duty guy for about five years.
>
> And, yes, the DAna part is a good gasket. We had one I liked better but it
> was more expensive and is no longer available.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic,
> once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
> '73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #239974 is a reply to message #239902] |
Fri, 14 February 2014 07:46 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| mikethebike wrote on Thu, 13 February 2014 18:35 |
Are you saying you reuse head gaskets that are not thin steel head gaskets?
| Quote: |
I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets.
Jim Hupy
Matt Colie wrote:
> I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
>
> Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
>
> Matt
|
|
Yes, and I have done so. Many times in actual fact. In one case, during a test, we removed a cylinder head gasket that was showing acceptable performance, did some small tests and put it back in to rerun some of the evaluations and it did better re-installed than it had initially.
Even embossed steel gaskets can be reinstalled if care is taken. This one is not a first choice because such parts are easily damaged.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #240486 is a reply to message #239974] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 13:07 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Well, I won't be buying any engine you built. There is no way on gods green earth I'm reusing a head gasket, especially after proper torquing of the head bolts and damn sure not after firing the engine. Surest way I know to have to go back and do it again.
Alright, I just got off the phone with Pete Hill, 5 time T/F Champion motorcycle drag racer and builder of a 450 hp 1947 Kunckle that runs 7 flat at 200+....25 years ago, built the fuel injection system, air shifter, supercharger, cases, heads, cylinders etc. in his shop here in Greenville. Asked him about reusing head gaskets.....NO was the answer.
Now, you can do as you want, but when someone with the experience of Pete and his record and reputation says NO....I listen to them.
| Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 07:46 |
| mikethebike wrote on Thu, 13 February 2014 18:35 |
Are you saying you reuse head gaskets that are not thin steel head gaskets?
| Quote: |
I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets.
Jim Hupy
Matt Colie wrote:
> I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
>
> Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
>
> Matt
|
|
Yes, and I have done so. Many times in actual fact. In one case, during a test, we removed a cylinder head gasket that was showing acceptable performance, did some small tests and put it back in to rerun some of the evaluations and it did better re-installed than it had initially.
Even embossed steel gaskets can be reinstalled if care is taken. This one is not a first choice because such parts are easily damaged.
Matt
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[Updated on: Wed, 19 February 2014 13:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #240496 is a reply to message #240486] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 15:53 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| mikethebike wrote on Wed, 19 February 2014 14:07 |
Well, I won't be buying any engine you built. There is no way on gods green earth I'm reusing a head gasket, especially after proper torquing of the head bolts and damn sure not after firing the engine. Surest way I know to have to go back and do it again.
Alright, I just got off the phone with Pete Hill, 5 time T/F Champion motorcycle drag racer and builder of a 450 hp 1947 Kunckle that runs 7 flat at 200+....25 years ago, built the fuel injection system, air shifter, supercharger, cases, heads, cylinders etc. in his shop here in Greenville. Asked him about reusing head gaskets.....NO was the answer.
Now, you can do as you want, but when someone with the experience of Pete and his record and reputation says NO....I listen to them.
|
As you said, you are free to do as you please.
But, let me tell you of two interesting cases:
First, Did you ever hear of a rebuilder called Jasper?
They were having trouble with Ford 300 during the hot test required for one of the parcel delivery companies. Some times a lash adjuster would not pump up. I happened to be there when they had one. The mechanic took the head off and swapped the bad part, and was going to get a new head gasket. I stopped him and told him to screw it back together with the parts he had. I wrote a note and said I would cover the cost if that head gasket ever had a problem. the collected crowed shrugged and the engine passed hot test. About two months later, I got a call from one of the managers. They had had about a dozen more cases. They all got the same treatment. None of those engines came back. He promised to buy me a steak the next time I was in town. (It never works that way, the supplier always buys.)
Then there was a company with an engine plant in Lima OH. They made little 2.3l turbo motors. For the engines to live at those pressures and temperatures, (the program engines were run in and dynoed at 275Hp - they sort of needed a good seal) the final machining had to be done with a deck plate installed. This deck plate was more than just a hunk of steel. It was machined to mimic the specific flexibility of the cylinder head casting. For the bore machining and hone, the deck plate had to be installed with a production cylinder head gasket with fasteners at design tension. They were throwing away the gasket used in the machining operation. The engineer responsible for the 2.3 SVO program called and asked if they could reuse that gasket. (There was an order screw up and stock was down.) I told him what I have always said. The engines shipped during the next two weeks actually had lower warranty than those shipped prior. This didn't work out so well for us because we sold half as many gaskets. But I made a career long friend.
I could continue story time, but I have two computers to get back on-line, a coach and an convoy to get ready for Montgomery and not that much more time for any of the above.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #240508 is a reply to message #239732] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 17:28 |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for this info.. I need to do two 445 engines.
Sorry to go off topic.
Does anyone know the part number for the differential cover?
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #240533 is a reply to message #240486] |
Wed, 19 February 2014 21:15 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Well, to each his own, I suppose. I'm not really conversant with the properties of gaskets beyond peening one out of gasket paper, and the ones we used on flat motors, including silk thread. Like many things, if I'm not real intimate, I go ask questions and then look at the answers, and where they don't agree, I have a look at the c.v. of those submitting them, and give credence accordingly.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
________________________________
From: mike foster <mafoster1@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets
Well, I won't be buying any engine you built. There is no way on gods green earth I'm reusing a head gasket, especially after proper torquing of the head bolts and damn sure not after firing the engine. Surest way I know to have to go back and do it again.
Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 07:46
> mikethebike wrote on Thu, 13 February 2014 18:35
> > Are you saying you reuse head gaskets that are not thin steel head gaskets?
> >
> > Quote:
> > > I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets.
> > > Jim Hupy
> > >
> > > Matt Colie wrote:
> > > > I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
> > > >
> > > > Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
>
> Yes, and I have done so. Many times in actual fact. In one case, during a test, we removed a cylinder head gasket that was showing acceptable performance, did some small tests and put it back in to rerun some of the evaluations and it did better re-installed than it had initially.
>
> Even embossed steel gaskets can be reinstalled if care is taken. This one is not a first choice because such parts are easily damaged.
>
> Matt
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #240629 is a reply to message #240533] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 19:07 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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A friend of mine down in Charleston, SC named Dan Perron raced a 1968 Z/28 in modified eliminator for years, set both ends of a national record with his Corvette he raced after 'Little Hero' blew a tire and was totaled. The Z ran 10.2 at 3200 lbs. Just in case you don't know the answer to how much H/P to the ground that is....595...again...595 RWHP from a 287 cid non supercharged, no turbo, no nitrous dual 660 Holleys.
Do you think he reuses head gasket on engines he builds or rebuilds? NO. Unless someone on here can compete with him or Pete Hill, I'm sticking with them.
| Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 19 February 2014 21:15 |
Well, to each his own, I suppose. I'm not really conversant with the properties of gaskets beyond peening one out of gasket paper, and the ones we used on flat motors, including silk thread. Like many things, if I'm not real intimate, I go ask questions and then look at the answers, and where they don't agree, I have a look at the c.v. of those submitting them, and give credence accordingly.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
________________________________
From: mike foster <mafoster1@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets
Well, I won't be buying any engine you built. There is no way on gods green earth I'm reusing a head gasket, especially after proper torquing of the head bolts and damn sure not after firing the engine. Surest way I know to have to go back and do it again.
Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 07:46
> mikethebike wrote on Thu, 13 February 2014 18:35
> > Are you saying you reuse head gaskets that are not thin steel head gaskets?
> >
> > Quote:
> > > I concur with your statement about reusing gaskets, except where it comes to thin steel cylinder head gaskets.
> > > Jim Hupy
> > >
> > > Matt Colie wrote:
> > > > I got some news for everybody that hasn't heard it from me before. (You may have not yet joined the net or been sleeping...)
> > > >
> > > > Any gasket that is not damaged can be put back where it came from (those same two pieces) and be expected to work as well as it did before it was disassembled. Don't tell the parts store guys, they get upset.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
>
> Yes, and I have done so. Many times in actual fact. In one case, during a test, we removed a cylinder head gasket that was showing acceptable performance, did some small tests and put it back in to rerun some of the evaluations and it did better re-installed than it had initially.
>
> Even embossed steel gaskets can be reinstalled if care is taken. This one is not a first choice because such parts are easily damaged.
>
> Matt
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| Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets [message #240645 is a reply to message #240629] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 19:50 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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What you've told me below is, the gentlemen doesn't know whether he could re - use the gaskets or not, since he's never tried. I'll file that gent's info away in case I ever want to put a chev motor together to make power. (I can't think of any reason I'd want to, but just in case).
Now that I think on it, we never put a new one on my brother's old Crosley, either.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris Braselton, GA.
________________________________
From: mike foster <mafoster1@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Valve cover and oil pan gaskets
A friend of mine down in Charleston, SC named Dan Perron raced a 1968 Z/28 in modified eliminator for years, set both ends of a national record with his Corvette he raced after 'Little Hero' blew a tire and was totaled. The Z ran 10.2 at 3200 lbs. Just in case you don't know the answer to how much H/P to the ground that is....595...again...595 RWHP from a 287 cid non supercharged, no turbo, no nitrous dual 660 Holleys.
Do you think he reuses head gasket on engines he builds or rebuilds? NO. Unless someone on here can compete with him or Pete Hill, I'm sticking with them.
Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 19 February 2014 21:15
> Well, to each his own, I suppose. I'm not really conversant with the properties of gaskets beyond peening one out of gasket paper, and the ones we used on flat motors, including silk thread. Like many things, if I'm not real intimate, I go ask questions and then look at the answers, and where they don't agree, I have a look at the c.v. of those submitting them, and give credence accordingly.
>
> --johnny
> '76 23' transmode norris
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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