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| [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234591] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 13:31  |
jade
Messages: 163
Registered: August 2009
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Is it still recommended to add ZDDP at every oil change?
If so, where is the best place to buy it?
JADE
73 23'??
73 26' Painted Desert
Ajo, AZ.
KC7QGC
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234610 is a reply to message #234591] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 17:20  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Jim,
If my grey matter serves me well I reckon the consensus is that in a newly rebuilt engine it should be added until it is broken in.
In an older engine it isn't necessary. My opinion is simple - it can't hurt.
Having said that I must note that someone here noted that if the PPM is TOO high it CAN hurt, I can't remember why, however.
When I was in Chicago several years ago Ron Morrison showed me the gallon of SFR he bought for his GMC. You add 7 ounces the first
oil change and 5 thereafter.
Below is an updated version of a message I sent in back in April of 2010:
G’day,
Here’s some information on sources of ZDDP additives.
1) GM / Delco E.O.S.
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=88862587
GM Part # EOS 88862587
Our Price: $14.90
Qty: 16 Oz
Cost Per Ounce: $0.93
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/nal-88862587/overview/
GM Part # EOS 88862587
Price: $19.97
Qty: 6 Oz
Cost per ounce: $1.25
2) Delco EOS
http://www.acdelco.com/html/pi_vehcare_lub.htm
Scroll down to:
Part 10-106
12371532
E.O.S. Assembly Lubricant (1 pint)
•Is specially formulated as an engine assembly lubricant
•Provides protection against run-in wear and piston scuffing
•Is not recommended for use as an additive for engine oil
3) ZDDPlus
Dosage: 1 four ounce bottle per 5-6 quart oil change.
http://www.davidnavone.com/zddplus.htm
Single 4oz Bottle of ZDDPlus $9.95 = $2.48 per ounce
Five - 4oz Bottle of ZDDPlus $47.50 = $2.37 per ounce
3) SFR-100
http://www.sfrcorp.com/product/sfr-100-petroleum-oil-fortifier
Size / SKU / Price
1 Gallon Bottle with 1 oz. Pump / S34003 / $134.00 = $1.04 per ounce
5 Gallon Pail with 1 oz. Pump / S34002 / $559.00 =$0.87 per ounce
Dosage: 1 ounce per quart.
I bought a gallon of this stuff last year after I got the following information from them:
QUESTION 1): Does SFR 100 contain ZDDP?
RESPONSE: Normal motor oil when it contained ZDDP averaged 300 ppm. SFR when added at 3% or 1 ounce per quart of motor oil averages
over 900 ppm. There is over 30,000 ppm in SFR 100 concentrate.
QUESTION 2): How much SFR 100 should I add to 5 quarts of oil to get 1200-1400 PPM of ZDDP in oil that does not contain any ZDDP?
RESPONSE: I would add 1 1/2 ounces per quart or the recommended dosage for first time use and 1 ounce per quart of motor oil with
each and every oil change.
QUESTION 3) Can I add too much SFR 100?
RESPONSE: You can use up to 10% or 3 ounces per quart. After that it is not economical based on testing that we have run. You will
get outstanding results by using 1 1/2 ounces of SFR per quart of motor oil the first time, and 1 ounce per quart of motor oil
subsequent oil changes.
4) Eastwood 352-12269Z ZDDP Plus Oil Additive
http://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/12269Z/10002/-1
4 oz / $11.99 FREESHIPPING & HANDLING
5) JEGS Performance Products 28060 - JEGS Engine Break-In/ Engine Oil Supplement Lubricant
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/28060/10002/-1
12 oz / $15.99 FREESHIPPING & HANDLING
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Decheine
Is it still recommended to add ZDDP at every oil change?
If so, where is the best place to buy it?
JADE
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234618 is a reply to message #234610] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 18:13 |
james Ernst
Messages: 79
Registered: December 2013
Location: Lincoln, NE
Karma: -4
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Member |
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Hi Jim, on non roller lifter/cam engines using a zinc additive like ZDDPis
really a must. Today's oils are not really fit for these older engines with
cam and lifter upgrades..Learned my lesson on my Rocket 455 in my jet boat.
Jim
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Jim,
>
> If my grey matter serves me well I reckon the consensus is that in a newly
> rebuilt engine it should be added until it is broken in.
> In an older engine it isn't necessary. My opinion is simple - it can't
> hurt.
>
> Having said that I must note that someone here noted that if the PPM is
> TOO high it CAN hurt, I can't remember why, however.
>
> When I was in Chicago several years ago Ron Morrison showed me the gallon
> of SFR he bought for his GMC. You add 7 ounces the first
> oil change and 5 thereafter.
>
> Below is an updated version of a message I sent in back in April of 2010:
>
> G’day,
>
> Here’s some information on sources of ZDDP additives.
>
> 1) GM / Delco E.O.S.
>
> http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=88862587
>
> GM Part # EOS 88862587
> Our Price: $14.90
> Qty: 16 Oz
> Cost Per Ounce: $0.93
>
> http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/nal-88862587/overview/
>
> GM Part # EOS 88862587
> Price: $19.97
> Qty: 6 Oz
> Cost per ounce: $1.25
>
> 2) Delco EOS
>
> http://www.acdelco.com/html/pi_vehcare_lub.htm
>
> Scroll down to:
>
> Part 10-106
> 12371532
> E.O.S. Assembly Lubricant (1 pint)
>
> •Is specially formulated as an engine assembly lubricant
> •Provides protection against run-in wear and piston scuffing
> •Is not recommended for use as an additive for engine oil
>
> 3) ZDDPlus
>
> Dosage: 1 four ounce bottle per 5-6 quart oil change.
>
> http://www.davidnavone.com/zddplus.htm
>
> Single 4oz Bottle of ZDDPlus $9.95 = $2.48 per ounce
> Five - 4oz Bottle of ZDDPlus $47.50 = $2.37 per ounce
>
> 3) SFR-100
>
> http://www.sfrcorp.com/product/sfr-100-petroleum-oil-fortifier
>
> Size / SKU / Price
> 1 Gallon Bottle with 1 oz. Pump / S34003 / $134.00 = $1.04 per ounce
> 5 Gallon Pail with 1 oz. Pump / S34002 / $559.00 =$0.87 per ounce
>
> Dosage: 1 ounce per quart.
>
> I bought a gallon of this stuff last year after I got the following
> information from them:
>
> QUESTION 1): Does SFR 100 contain ZDDP?
> RESPONSE: Normal motor oil when it contained ZDDP averaged 300 ppm. SFR
> when added at 3% or 1 ounce per quart of motor oil averages
> over 900 ppm. There is over 30,000 ppm in SFR 100 concentrate.
>
> QUESTION 2): How much SFR 100 should I add to 5 quarts of oil to get
> 1200-1400 PPM of ZDDP in oil that does not contain any ZDDP?
> RESPONSE: I would add 1 1/2 ounces per quart or the recommended dosage for
> first time use and 1 ounce per quart of motor oil with
> each and every oil change.
>
> QUESTION 3) Can I add too much SFR 100?
> RESPONSE: You can use up to 10% or 3 ounces per quart. After that it is
> not economical based on testing that we have run. You will
> get outstanding results by using 1 1/2 ounces of SFR per quart of motor
> oil the first time, and 1 ounce per quart of motor oil
> subsequent oil changes.
>
> 4) Eastwood 352-12269Z ZDDP Plus Oil Additive
>
> http://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/12269Z/10002/-1
>
> 4 oz / $11.99 FREESHIPPING & HANDLING
>
> 5) JEGS Performance Products 28060 - JEGS Engine Break-In/ Engine Oil
> Supplement Lubricant
>
> http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/28060/10002/-1
>
> 12 oz / $15.99 FREESHIPPING & HANDLING
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Decheine
>
> Is it still recommended to add ZDDP at every oil change?
> If so, where is the best place to buy it?
> JADE
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Jimbalaya
No Coach yet
60 Olds 88
66 Toro
76 Toro
86 cutlass Supreme
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234626 is a reply to message #234591] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 18:51 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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A well broken in flat tappet cam engine should be ok with modern oils that have higher phosphorous levels, such as diesel spec (shell rotella) or Mobil 1 15w-50 (my preference).
There are some published data of phosphorous levels in commercial oils. Phosphorous levels > 1000 ppm should be ok, > 1300 ppm is better.
Oils to be avoided are any displaying the API "donut" with the words "energy conserving". These oils are low phosphorous oils with 800 ppm or less, developed for modern roller cam engines. The low phosphorous levels reduce exhaust catalyst poisoning.
I would suggest adding cam break in lube to any new engine and a little added at oil changes can't hurt either.
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234629 is a reply to message #234625] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 19:12 |
james Ernst
Messages: 79
Registered: December 2013
Location: Lincoln, NE
Karma: -4
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Member |
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Robert, You are correct. I should have said in my reply w/o the upgrades.
today's oils are fine with the roller goodies. I had stock valve train in
it and wore the cam flat and ruined the lifters. I should've known better,
been around these Olds and been involved building them since I was a kid at
the dealereship.
Your're also correct about the RPM too. I usually cruise my boat on plane
around 3000 with the occasional jaunt up to 5000....so there are
diiferences in operation for sure. Just my 2 pennys worth.
Jim
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I agree you when you noted that your jet boat engine needed ZDDP as you
> noted; "Today's oils are not really fit for these older
> engines with cam and lifter upgrades."
>
> Assumptions made:
>
> 1) Cam and lifters upgraded to get more HP / TQ at high RPMs (higher lift
> / longer duration)
> 2) Cam and lifter upgrade required stiffer valve springs
> 3) Engine ran in a range above the engine in a GMC (60 MPH = 2400 RPM give
> or take a few hundred)
>
> Am I right?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: james Ernst
>
> Hi Jim, on non roller lifter/cam engines using a zinc additive like ZDDPis
> really a must. Today's oils are not really fit for these older engines with
> cam and lifter upgrades..Learned my lesson on my Rocket 455 in my jet boat.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Jimbalaya
No Coach yet
60 Olds 88
66 Toro
76 Toro
86 cutlass Supreme
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234630 is a reply to message #234629] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 19:13 |
james Ernst
Messages: 79
Registered: December 2013
Location: Lincoln, NE
Karma: -4
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Member |
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Good points Chris.
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 7:12 PM, james Ernst <jimbalaya57@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert, You are correct. I should have said in my reply w/o the upgrades.
> today's oils are fine with the roller goodies. I had stock valve train in
> it and wore the cam flat and ruined the lifters. I should've known better,
> been around these Olds and been involved building them since I was a kid at
> the dealereship.
> Your're also correct about the RPM too. I usually cruise my boat on plane
> around 3000 with the occasional jaunt up to 5000....so there are
> diiferences in operation for sure. Just my 2 pennys worth.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I agree you when you noted that your jet boat engine needed ZDDP as you
>> noted; "Today's oils are not really fit for these older
>> engines with cam and lifter upgrades."
>>
>> Assumptions made:
>>
>> 1) Cam and lifters upgraded to get more HP / TQ at high RPMs (higher lift
>> / longer duration)
>> 2) Cam and lifter upgrade required stiffer valve springs
>> 3) Engine ran in a range above the engine in a GMC (60 MPH = 2400 RPM
>> give or take a few hundred)
>>
>> Am I right?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: james Ernst
>>
>> Hi Jim, on non roller lifter/cam engines using a zinc additive like
>> ZDDPis
>> really a must. Today's oils are not really fit for these older engines
>> with
>> cam and lifter upgrades..Learned my lesson on my Rocket 455 in my jet
>> boat.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
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Jimbalaya
No Coach yet
60 Olds 88
66 Toro
76 Toro
86 cutlass Supreme
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234650 is a reply to message #234591] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 21:34 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| jade wrote on Tue, 31 December 2013 12:31 |
Is it still recommended to add ZDDP at every oil change?
If so, where is the best place to buy it?
JADE
73 23'??
73 26' Painted Desert
Ajo, AZ.
KC7QGC
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Jade, we've had some heated discussion on this and it seems that the hype has settled down a bit after the initial scare. By all accounts, the ZDDP content is important during cam break-in which very few of us need to deal with. In my current job I have to deal in facts and there is no evidence that ZDDP is required after a new cam break in. I have 100,000 trucks in our fleet and even though the flat tappet units are now retiring, we have never used special oil in any of them with no consequences. If it makes you feel better, by all means add it, but actual data shows it is not required nor is it beneficial.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234657 is a reply to message #234629] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 22:30 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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| james Ernst wrote on Tue, 31 December 2013 17:12 |
Robert, You are correct. I should have said in my reply w/o the upgrades.
today's oils are fine with the roller goodies. I had stock valve train in
it and wore the cam flat and ruined the lifters. I should've known better,
been around these Olds and been involved building them since I was a kid at
the dealereship.
Your're also correct about the RPM too. I usually cruise my boat on plane
around 3000 with the occasional jaunt up to 5000....so there are
diiferences in operation for sure. Just my 2 pennys worth.
Jim
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I agree you when you noted that your jet boat engine needed ZDDP as you
> noted; "Today's oils are not really fit for these older
> engines with cam and lifter upgrades."
>
> Assumptions made:
>
> 1) Cam and lifters upgraded to get more HP / TQ at high RPMs (higher lift
> / longer duration)
> 2) Cam and lifter upgrade required stiffer valve springs
> 3) Engine ran in a range above the engine in a GMC (60 MPH = 2400 RPM give
> or take a few hundred)
>
> Am I right?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: james Ernst
>
> Hi Jim, on non roller lifter/cam engines using a zinc additive like ZDDPis
> really a must. Today's oils are not really fit for these older engines with
> cam and lifter upgrades..Learned my lesson on my Rocket 455 in my jet boat.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Don't know what jet you are running but my Berkley with an A impeller wouldn't go more then 4k with a 10to1 compression 455 olds motor and that was 60 mph. Are you running a blower?
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] ZDDP [message #234696 is a reply to message #234591] |
Wed, 01 January 2014 09:49 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Lot's of hype and false info on ZDDP On a broken in non roller engine the main factor is lifter pressure on face and cam determined by spring pressure, height and cam lift and ramp curve compounded by rocker ratio. Most RV setups are not of this type. RPM and long off 'drain down time' are also factors. There may be some benefit at dry start up with higher residual ZDDP. Above 1500 PPM there are no increased anti scuffing benefits. There was a GM bulletin about excessive phosphorous attacking the polished cam and lifter surfaces (spalling) If I can find it I'll post. New oils have alternate new friction modifiers to improve the cat friendly SM,SN SO oils. Also high detergent negates some ZDDP properties so the levels in Diesel oils are not comparable to gasoline formulas. Energy saving star has to to with viscosity pumping losses not ZDDP levels though now a days they often track together. .
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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