Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » effects of torque steer
| effects of torque steer [message #233721] |
Sun, 22 December 2013 19:49  |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
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After replacing all steering components, except ball joints, I believe I have "narrowed my constant tug to the right as "torque steer", It always has a tug to the right and really pulls especially under acceleration to the right, if you let off the throttle the tug goes away. Steers fairly good other than that. The research says unequal axle lengths but with the way it is designed both final axles are the same lenghth. Lower ball joints are also listed as a possible cause. I've seen torque steer issues mentioned briefly on the forum, is there any of the esteemed brain trust out there with experience with this phenomenom. Thanks for the help this year to all and
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Did I mention I am one of the most politically incorrect people I know. Thanks Again.
Skip Hartline
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: [GMCnet] effects of torque steer [message #233722 is a reply to message #233721] |
Sun, 22 December 2013 19:54  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Skip, describe all the modifications to the front end including which tires
you run as well as air pressure.. It will help us make an informed answer.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or.
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Dec 22, 2013 5:49 PM, "Skip Hartline" <skiphartline@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> After replacing all steering components, except ball joints, I believe I
> have "narrowed my constant tug to the right as "torque steer", It always
> has a tug to the right and really pulls especially under acceleration to
> the right, if you let off the throttle the tug goes away. Steers fairly
> good other than that. The research says unequal axle lengths but with the
> way it is designed both final axles are the same lenghth. Lower ball joints
> are also listed as a possible cause. I've seen torque steer issues
> mentioned briefly on the forum, is there any of the esteemed brain trust
> out there with experience with this phenomenom. Thanks for the help this
> year to all and
> MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
> Did I mention I am one of the most politically incorrect people I know.
> Thanks Again.
> Skip Hartline
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] effects of torque steer [message #233728 is a reply to message #233722] |
Sun, 22 December 2013 20:42 |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
Karma: 3
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I have done the following:
New gear box(Sirrum), new adjustable drag link(Lenzi), new relay arm(Sirrum), new idler arm(Lenzi), new tie rods and ends, wheels bearings new, new upper and lower a arm bushings with the offset ones on the rear uppers(jim K), no slop between the steering wheel and gearbox, running Dodge rims in front with built in offset with goodrich all terrains, all tires at 60 psi and a best I can tell, ride heigths are correct and have new auto air valves in back to keep heigths correct. No sign of abnormal tire wear. Did string alignment and steers good other than the continual tug to the right. Loves banking high speeed right turns but fights on high speed left hand turns. The wheel centering is always changing with the fullness of the fuel tank, and if I pull the boat and other load changes. Most of the time You have to keep it a little to the left of center to go straight. You can reset it to center with the drag link at straight ahead and it won't hold. Feel no slop in steeering though. As I said the only parts not changed were the ball joints. Sorta hoping to hold off till I could get the one ton kit, all the other parts are used on the one ton kit. Skip
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233733 is a reply to message #233721] |
Sun, 22 December 2013 21:17 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
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Torque steer in any FWD vehicle should only be noticeable under brisk acceleration. A constant pull indicates an alignment problem or tire difference between left and right. It's also possible the frame is racked or there is a problem in the final drive(differential)or the motor mounts. Do what Bob said first.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
[Updated on: Sun, 22 December 2013 21:19] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] effects of torque steer [message #233778 is a reply to message #233728] |
Mon, 23 December 2013 07:12 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Sir: it sounds as if your caster is not equal. A vehicle will pull to the side that has less + caster. Usually a GMC will have more + caster on the drivers side if set at max on both sides.
| skip2 wrote on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:42 |
I have done the following:
New gear box(Sirrum), new adjustable drag link(Lenzi), new relay arm(Sirrum), new idler arm(Lenzi), new tie rods and ends, wheels bearings new, new upper and lower a arm bushings with the offset ones on the rear uppers(jim K), no slop between the steering wheel and gearbox, running Dodge rims in front with built in offset with goodrich all terrains, all tires at 60 psi and a best I can tell, ride heigths are correct and have new auto air valves in back to keep heigths correct. No sign of abnormal tire wear. Did string alignment and steers good other than the continual tug to the right. Loves banking high speeed right turns but fights on high speed left hand turns. The wheel centering is always changing with the fullness of the fuel tank, and if I pull the boat and other load changes. Most of the time You have to keep it a little to the left of center to go straight. You can reset it to center with the drag link at straight ahead and it won't hold. Feel no slop in steeering though. As I said the only parts not changed were the ball joints. Sorta hoping to hold off till I could get the one ton kit, all the other parts are used on the one ton kit. Skip
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233851 is a reply to message #233721] |
Mon, 23 December 2013 19:18 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Torque steer would show up as a skittery effect under acceleration especially on uneven pavement as wheel loading changes. By widening the track with the wrong Dodge front wheels this will be, by definition, worse as the steering geometry is now out of design parameters. Looks cool, but long lever arm tugs the wheel forward that has grip turning the direction. Right grip steers left and conversely. Any slop in the front end will make this worse. Lower ball joints would be a good candidate for this as the vehicle loading 'self eliminates' slop as long as they are loaded. Get on uneven surface and the loading may come and go causing all alignment specs to shift. Having the wheels centerline outside the imaginary steering arc centerline of the ball joints will increase torque steer, bump steer,(pulls steering wheel towards the side you hit the pothole on) and make any caster pull worse. Sorry.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233853 is a reply to message #233851] |
Mon, 23 December 2013 19:21 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 23 December 2013 17:18 |
Torque steer would show up as a skittery effect under acceleration especially on uneven pavement as wheel loading changes. By widening the track with the wrong Dodge front wheels this will be, by definition, worse as the steering geometry is now out of design parameters. Looks cool, but long lever arm tugs the wheel forward that has grip turning the direction. Right grip steers left and conversely. Any slop in the front end will make this worse. Lower ball joints would be a good candidate for this as the vehicle loading 'self eliminates' slop as long as they are loaded. Get on uneven surface and the loading may come and go causing all alignment specs to shift. Having the wheels centerline outside the imaginary steering arc centerline of the ball joints will increase torque steer, bump steer,(pulls steering wheel towards the side you hit the pothole on) and make any caster pull worse. Sorry.
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I'm not questioning your logic, but isn't one of the benefits of the 1-ton front end conversion that it moves the front wheels out a bit and inline with the rear wheels? Maybe doing this with the stock suspension doesn't produce the same positive results.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233884 is a reply to message #233721] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 08:57 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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I'm not sure about the geometry on the 1 Ton, but to my eye those thick spacers don't put the axis through the center line of the wheel. I could be wrong. Back in high school I learned on my friends 69 GTO what happens when you put wider wheels with increased positive offset all around the car. Looks pretty cool and aggressive. In the rear the tires rub when the air shocks fail. In the front the bump steer just about jerks the wheel from your hand (with power steering). And about every 6 months we were replacing front wheel bearings. Now--turn the fronts into the drive wheels and you get my point. I can't imagine how some of these tricked imports today handle in evasive maneuvers. Unpredictable and dangerous.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233888 is a reply to message #233721] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 10:52 |
LarryInSanDiego
Messages: 336
Registered: September 2006
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Someone commented in a prior thread about increased camber gain with the 1 ton. Assuming that stock upper and lower control arms are retained with the 1 ton conversion, that tells me spindle height (distance between upper and lower ball joints) is likely increased. The change in SAI (or KPI angle) line possibly could intersect with the center of the tire contact patch with spacers installed.
Don't know if this is the case or how it affects bump steer as compared to stock suspension and steering geometry. Just curious if anyone has analyzed either comparisons as well as the severity of behavior changes - just something to consider.
Larry Engelbrecht
San Diego, CA
'73 26' ex-Glacier
TZE063V100319 03/07/73
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| Re: [GMCnet] effects of torque steer [message #233891 is a reply to message #233890] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 11:13 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
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My 1997 Honda Civic goes around corners in an amazing fashion, but the
previous owners were road racers, and nothing about the suspension is
stock.
:-)
Plato seems wrong to me today.
On Dec 24, 2013 8:59 AM, "James Hupy" <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose that there are exceptions to the UNIVERSAL ASIAN TRANSPORTATION
> DEVICE RULE that mandates that all designs emanating from there have to
> meet the Same UGLY TEST. European cars are still exempt partially from that
> rule. The new HONDA Hydrogen hybrid car unveiled the other day looks
> amazingly like a car that I remember from a Woody Allen movie, Sleeper. It
> was BUTT UGLY too.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC Royale 403
> On Dec 24, 2013 8:50 AM, "David Orders" <dao@oarsllc.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > James Hupy wrote on Tue, 24 December 2013 08:15
> > > But they alllook the same and are without style or grace or soul.
> >
> >
> > Not ALL of them! ;o)
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.oarsllc.com/2002TT1.jpg
> >
> >
> > --
> > 1976 Royale "Twinkie II", 1978 Palm Beach with front end fire. Lynnwood
> WA
> > - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how
> we
> > treat one another is entirely up to us."
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> _______________________________________________
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1973 26' GM outfitted
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233892 is a reply to message #233721] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 11:20 |
Cadillackeeper
Messages: 464
Registered: October 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale
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A transverse engine creates this.Not on an old Eldo/Toro/GMC.The late model drive by wire vacume cleaner powered cars with a transverse engine WILL break a finger!
If one is not prepared for the delay time and is not holding the steering wheel,floor it and the steering wheel Will turn hard by itself and send the vehicle toward the ditch,whilst breaking your pinky finger. If you know this can happen and are ready for it then OK.I never really drove in one of theses washing machine style cars before,2013 Mazda 3, 4 door job.Before breaking my pinky at the stop sign,I could not see out past the giant A pillers.That is what made me mad and floor it away from the stop and break my finger.I will stay in the proper 67 Eldorado,I am 52 now and really only need 30 years out of it.It is over 45 now. Non of those crumple zone disposeable cars are safe or worth the money they get.I would rather spend $70000
on a 67 427 Corvette than throw away $70k on a 2014 disposeable Corvette.
Sorry a little off topic But Sheeze........
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
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| Re: [GMCnet] effects of torque steer [message #233894 is a reply to message #233892] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 11:31 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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The difference between the 2014 corvette and the 67 is that when you kill the 67 by wrecking it you are FAR more likely to leave the earth with it in the process.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Dec 24, 2013, at 9:20 AM, anthony ezzo <ezzo@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> A transverse engine creates this.Not on an old Eldo/Toro/GMC.The late model drive by wire vacume cleaner powered cars with a transverse engine WILL break a finger!
>
> If one is not prepared for the delay time and is not holding the steering wheel,floor it and the steering wheel Will turn hard by itself and send the vehicle toward the ditch,whilst breaking your pinky finger. If you know this can happen and are ready for it then OK.I never really drove in one of theses washing machine style cars before,2013 Mazda 3, 4 door job.Before breaking my pinky at the stop sign,I could not see out past the giant A pillers.That is what made me mad and floor it away from the stop and break my finger.I will stay in the proper 67 Eldorado,I am 52 now and really only need 30 years out of it.It is over 45 now. Non of those crumple zone disposeable cars are safe or worth the money they get.I would rather spend $70000
> on a 67 427 Corvette than throw away $70k on a 2014 disposeable Corvette.
>
>
> Sorry a little off topic But Sheeze........
> --
> 77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
> _______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] effects of torque steer [message #233895 is a reply to message #233888] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 11:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Back on thread now: re: Torque Steer. Jerry Work wrote a very accurate
technical paper on the 1 ton. Read it and pay very special attention to the
parts about tire contact patches. These coaches are no longer fitted with
bias ply tires. Original steel wheels have been replaced with lightweight
alloy ones and are fitted with steel belted radial tires with rag
sidewalls. Changes the whole ball game. Throw in the heavy duty 1 ton
stuff on top of tire and wheel changes, and we have to re-think the whole
equation. What applies to a very light weight rear driven fully independent
suspended vehicle with equal length a-arms with 50/50 weight distribution
just does not apply here. GMC motor homes very seldom are called upon to do
4 wheel oops, 6 wheel drifting turns. What they do mostly is go straight
down the road and provide a very smooth ride. Probably should provide good
panic free stops in traffic, and be relatively free from cross wind effect
or buffeting from passing trucks. If you get one equipped with enough power
to spin the front wheels, and they are not pointed straight ahead, some
torque steer is going to happen. I have driven stock GMC's that handled Ok
and fitted them with performance upgrades that turned them into a difficult
to drive vehicle at very low speeds. They were not meant to do long smoky
burnouts. Bill Hubler and Manny T. , myself, Jim K., Jerry Work and
several others have burned the midnight oil on the 1 ton conversion to make
it what it is today. A Heavy Duty, trouble free, low maintenance,
alternative to the original Olds Tornado passenger car front end. It is not
formula 1 or Indy Car stuff. Far from it. But it is an evolutionary step
forward from what it was. If used in the manner intended, it is a great
upgrade and cheaper than OEM parts, thanks to Manny's quantity buys.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Dec 24, 2013 8:52 AM, "Larry Engelbrecht" <lengelbrecht@sandi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Someone commented in a prior thread about increased camber gain with the 1
> ton. Assuming that stock upper and lower control arms are retained with the
> 1 ton conversion, that tells me spindle height (distance between upper and
> lower ball joints) is likely increased. The change in SAI (or KPI angle)
> line possibly could intersect with the center of the tire contact patch
> with spacers installed.
>
> Don't know if this is the case or how it affects bump steer as compared to
> stock suspension and steering geometry. Just curious if anyone has analyzed
> either comparisons as well as the severity of behavior changes - just
> something to consider.
> --
> Larry Engelbrecht
>
> San Diego, CA
>
> '73 26' ex-Glacier
>
> TZE063V100319 03/07/73
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: effects of torque steer [message #233896 is a reply to message #233721] |
Tue, 24 December 2013 11:44 |
Cadillackeeper
Messages: 464
Registered: October 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Karma: 1
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Old Corvette had a full perimiter frame,just like the new one.Vette owners will tell you they are safer than any unibodies like Mustangs.I was always concerened about being rearended in one and fiberglass shards flying through the cockpit.Actually the most danger to me IS the airbags.They kinda kill more than the crash itself.It says so right on the visors.
Like I said before new is Novel usually Never Better!
Just my opinion of couse but kinda based on common sense and actual facts!!
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
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