Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries?
| [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230717] |
Thu, 21 November 2013 20:32  |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Thinking about my Sister-in-law's off-grid home made me think of the GMC (it often does). Many on the list have multiple 12 volt battery banks that are connected in parallel. I know that paralleling batteries can be bad, so I began to wonder if any intelligent soul has developed a "combiner / isolator" that would allow all banks to act isolated 12 volt batteries - charge and draw power as needed, combining all banks when needed for big power draws. I can't be the first to think of this, but Google hides this secret from me.
It's analogous to computer hard drives in a storage array. Back-when, to make a terabyte array you would combine similar disks (same manufacturer, model, etc.), into a raid array to gain the capacity needed (excepting for the loss of the checksum data.) Drobo set the low-cost RAID world on it's ear by making a device that would take ANY SATA drive and allow you to toss it in the mix. As the array fills up you replace the smallest disk. I simplify, but you get the idea.
It seems to me this kind of device would be very practical when you want to add a bit more capacity without replacing the entire battery bank. It would also allow for old weak batteries to be used much longer as they won't draw down the other banks. Imagine the Ragusa trays filled with batteries. Aside from a 20,000 lb. coach it would be nice to boon-dock, or run a bigger inverter as needed.
Any thoughts about living HUGE in a GMC? Am I making too much of the paralleled battery issue?
Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230719 is a reply to message #230717] |
Thu, 21 November 2013 20:57  |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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Found this statement:
"The Combiner 100 is a voltage-sensing relay (13.3 volts) which connects two batteries together when either is receiving a charge. When the charging ceases, the relay opens so that each battery operates independently. Supplemental battery banks can be added by using an additional combiner for each bank. You never have to worry about switching to "BOTH" when your engine is running and forgetting to switch back to save your starting battery from discharge when you stop."
It combines when charging, but not when you put a load on it.
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230722 is a reply to message #230720] |
Thu, 21 November 2013 21:29 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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If I'm following the 3 battery boat diagram, you have 3 different load paths from the battery; engine, house, refrig.
If the goal is to build a large storage capacity, would it not be better to use larger capacity batteries, ignoring for the moment their weight and physical size as individual units? Might be interesting to see a diagram of the battery banks installed in all-electric vehicles. They must have computers dedicated to battery charge controlling.
I would series connect individual banks of 6v batteries, to control weight distribution and ease of servicing. Robin has a defective large 12v battery in his Barn Queen that I'm not sure I could move very readily. I know it is in the door way, and you have to step around or over it. ( it is not connected. I suspect it is dead.)
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230724 is a reply to message #230718] |
Thu, 21 November 2013 23:18 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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I understand the combiner to charge the batteries, but what if you want to draw a big load where all banks should be connected as one big battery?
Splitting the batteries up by function might work, but what if you want to run the microwave where all batteries would make sense?
Larry Davick
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 6:53 PM, Bill Wevers <gmc1975@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Larry,
> Read here:
> http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm#Q12
>
> It says that you add a combiner for each bank.
> When you figure it out, please explain it to me. :lol:
>
> -Bill
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230725 is a reply to message #230717] |
Thu, 21 November 2013 23:31 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
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You can use isolators to keep the batteries seperated while charging and at rest. Then you can use the early Ford starter relays to connect them together for a large current draw. The relays draw power when switched on, but they don't have to be controlled by the batteries they are connecting together. Switching the relays on could be manually controlled or automatically done when the large load is engaged. Hundreds of possibilities and wiring setups based on power needs and the size of your checkbook!
That way you don't have to get out and flip a knife switch at the battery terminals when you need the extra current from multiple batteries.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230737 is a reply to message #230732] |
Fri, 22 November 2013 01:31 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I read the data sheets of both the Cyrix-1 200A 400A and the Cyrix-1 12/24 120A 225A units. I "think" that they will do what you are asking.
I also had a thought of designing something with a primary battery being on line all the time with some voltage sensing attached to it. If the voltage on the primary battery dropped below a given level line like 12 or 12.2 volts, a relay would pick up and a second battery would come on line in parallel with the first one. This could be expanded with additional voltage sensing and relays for each additional battery that one wishes to install.
Some safeguards would have to be placed in the circuit to prevent a shorted battery from being switched into the online bank.
I would have to think it out some more before I would call it safe.
Doable, I think so. Necessary, I do not know.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230742 is a reply to message #230739] |
Fri, 22 November 2013 02:15 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| ljdavick wrote on Fri, 22 November 2013 02:00 |
Ken,
I think that Peurket's law makes a case for your design. If I understand it correctly a big load (relative to the battery capacity) diminishes the total amour of energy available from a battery.
Something like - If you draw 200 watts from a given battery in 10 minutes it may deplete the battery. If you draw 200 watts over 20 hours the battery may still have 20% capacity left.
<http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law>
Therefore a larger capacity battery may be better for big loads.
I'm not familiar with the Cyrix units. I'll read up on the links.
Larry Davick
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The site Applie posted was is some language I can not read and did not bother to run through an online translator. If you go download the .pdf files on the units they are in English.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230743 is a reply to message #230717] |
Fri, 22 November 2013 02:35 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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there is always this
link
http://thedovetailjoint.squarespace.com/storage/GMC%20Battery%20presentation%20v3%20reduced.pdf
gene
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net> wrote:
> Thinking about my Sister-in-law's off-grid home made me think of the GMC
> (it often does). Many on the list have multiple 12 volt battery banks that
> are connected in parallel. I know that paralleling batteries can be bad,
> so I began to wonder if any intelligent soul has developed a "combiner /
> isolator" that would allow all banks to act isolated 12 volt batteries -
> charge and draw power as needed, combining all banks when needed for big
> power draws. I can't be the first to think of this, but Google hides this
> secret from me.
>
> It's analogous to computer hard drives in a storage array. Back-when, to
> make a terabyte array you would combine similar disks (same manufacturer,
> model, etc.), into a raid array to gain the capacity needed (excepting for
> the loss of the checksum data.) Drobo set the low-cost RAID world on it's
> ear by making a device that would take ANY SATA drive and allow you to toss
> it in the mix. As the array fills up you replace the smallest disk. I
> simplify, but you get the idea.
>
> It seems to me this kind of device would be very practical when you want
> to add a bit more capacity without replacing the entire battery bank. It
> would also allow for old weak batteries to be used much longer as they
> won't draw down the other banks. Imagine the Ragusa trays filled with
> batteries. Aside from a 20,000 lb. coach it would be nice to boon-dock, or
> run a bigger inverter as needed.
>
> Any thoughts about living HUGE in a GMC? Am I making too much of the
> paralleled battery issue?
>
> Larry Davick
> Fremont, California
> A Mystery Machine
> '76 (ish) Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230755 is a reply to message #230724] |
Fri, 22 November 2013 06:32 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Larry,
I think if you visit Yandina.com, you'll find that their combiners have a
lead, which we seldom use, which can cause the relay to close when it's
activated. In other words, the combiner can be "manually" controlled. For
most uses, that should satisfy your requirement. If you want to automate
that "manual" activation, you'll have to design a load sensing circuit to
provide the activation -- but the relay can still perform the load
switching.
Call Yandina and talk to Andina Marie Foster, inventor of the combiner; she
may have already done something like that.
Ken H.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net> wrote:
> I understand the combiner to charge the batteries, but what if you want to
> draw a big load where all banks should be connected as one big battery?
> Splitting the batteries up by function might work, but what if you want to
> run the microwave where all batteries would make sense?
>
> Larry Davick
>
> > On Nov 21, 2013, at 6:53 PM, Bill Wevers <gmc1975@att.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Larry,
> > Read here:
> > http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm#Q12
> >
> > It says that you add a combiner for each bank.
> > When you figure it out, please explain it to me. :lol:
> >
> > -Bill
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230756 is a reply to message #230736] |
Fri, 22 November 2013 06:49 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""Appie,
I think the combiner only handles the charging side, not the load (or draw) side.
I want all the power when I need it but none of the problems of parallel batteries.
Larry Davick""
Larry, if your batteries are relatively matched (same size and age), I personally wouldn't worry about having them wired in parallel. I run two sets of 6V banks hard wired together. When the ignition is on, a relay also connects those to the chassis battery so that they all charge together.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] How to conect two 12 volt battery banks DROBO for batteries? [message #230763 is a reply to message #230756] |
Fri, 22 November 2013 08:35 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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if yoy read the cyrix ( victron) pdf you will sea that it seperates the batteries when they are full to avoid cycling and that they have a lead to Boost.
I think the Victron products are real cool and with the right combination the can everything wished for and do it well
designed in the Netherlands
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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