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| starter wiring [message #229144] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 12:16  |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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The PO had recurrent hot start/no start issues- one of the reasons I got the long deal on my 76 Glenbrook. It has headers, and despite a heat shield it did give me a problem on the way home
Having had similar issues with musclecars and heat soaked solenoids I put a remote Ford type starter solenoid up front and ran 3/0 welding cable, putting a jumper on the GM solenoid. It has worked well for me on other vehicles, eliminating heat soak issues plus providing an easy way to bump the engine over for valve adjustment, ect.
I also rigged the boost switch to trigger the starter when on momentary on off the house battery in case the primary is dead. It works great, with all three batterys it spins even a hot 455 like no there's no tomorrow.
Heres the rub: previously the cable from the genset battery was on the same side of the boost solenoid as the start cable. Since the engine mounted solenoid was switched it didnt matter if it was hot. The cable is still hot, although on a [i think] 50amp curcuit breaker. If I put it on the cable side now, it will briefly try to start before the breaker trips so it is on the house battery side of the boost solenoid. Problem is, that way the two auxillery batteries always actually in parallel with the associated cross drawing issue. Hence my problem.
At the gen compartment, there is another boost solenoid that enables the full amperage to the large cable to the front. The breaker protected cable runs to the cold side of that solenoid as I think this enables the charging of ther rear battery. If it were on the hot side I dont see any cuircuit for charging. Not sure if the buzz box charges it, have not checked that yet.
Complicating the matter further is my plan down the road is to put dual 6 v batteries to relpace both the house battery and the genset battery to enable more capacity for boondocking.
Not sure what my best option is. I think the most simple solution is a Battery selector/disconnect switch for the cable from the rear battery, but this does not solve the alternator charging issue.
Question is, would I be better off with adding a second isolator, replacing the existing 2 pole isolator with a multi pole [marine type] isolator or adding a battery combiner? Any other ideas?
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: starter wiring [message #229145 is a reply to message #229144] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 12:26  |
John Sharpe
Messages: 489
Registered: February 2006
Location: Texas
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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The rear boost solenoid should be activated by the boost switch. This just allows for the current to bypass the breaker (fuse) when high current is needed to start. A line from the isolator should charge the rear battery through the breaker circuit. Yours could be different as I am most familiar with the '78.
John Sharpe
Humble,TX
'78 Eleganza TBI
'89 Spectrum 2000 MPI V-10
'40 Ford Panel Delivery TPI
johnasharpe@gmail.com
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| Re: starter wiring [message #229148 is a reply to message #229144] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 12:55 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| Chris Tyler wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 10:16 |
...
I also rigged the boost switch to trigger the starter when on momentary on off the house battery in case the primary is dead. It works great, with all three batterys it spins even a hot 455 like no there's no tomorrow.
Heres the rub: ...
|
Two issues:
1. A 76 Glenbrook left the factory with only two batteries. The engine battery up front, and the house/genset battery in the rear. So, if it has three batteries something has been changed and any advise you get from the net should be evaluated for your application as your coach is (now) not the same as others.
2. You have just changed the system farther from stock and seem to have added even more unintended problems. Why did you use the boost switch as part of the hot start solution? I am fairly sure you didn't use a boost switch on your past applications. (As most of them didn't have one in the first place...)
There is something to be said for keeping systems close to being stock... allowing for new (better?) technology. Believe it or not, the GM engineers actually knew something about automotive design.
IIRC Aren't most hot start problems corrected by removing the accumulated corrosion (about 40 years worth) from the starting circuit? (IE: new battery cables, cleaning the grounds and MAYBE adding an extra ground from the starter to the battery. Yes, I remember the often recommended trick of the extra hot cable from the battery directly to the starter, but that requires a dual post battery. ... and I dislike side posts.)
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
[Updated on: Sun, 10 November 2013 12:56] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229149 is a reply to message #229144] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 13:05 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Chris,
There was a kit out a number of years ago that address that problem with the heat soak issue with the starter. I will set if I still have the brochure and wiring diagram for that. It was a Ford type solenoid in a kit offered by M.A.D. Enterprises in the mid 1980’s.
I just scanned it into the photo site and it a bit file and it is a PDF file.
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/general-pictures/p51516-starter-hot-soak-information.html>
As a word or warning, your starter could be damage enough that this kit may not work.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
On Nov 10, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Chris Tyler <dtyler11@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> The PO had recurrent hot start/no start issues- one of the reasons I got the long deal on my 76 Glenbrook. It has headers, and despite a heat shield it did give me a problem on the way home
>
> Having had similar issues with musclecars and heat soaked solenoids I put a remote Ford type starter solenoid up front and ran 3/0 welding cable, putting a jumper on the GM solenoid. It has worked well for me on other vehicles, eliminating heat soak issues plus providing an easy way to bump the engine over for valve adjustment, ect.
>
> I also rigged the boost switch to trigger the starter when on momentary on off the house battery in case the primary is dead. It works great, with all three batterys it spins even a hot 455 like no there's no tomorrow.
>
> Heres the rub: previously the cable from the genset battery was on the same side of the boost solenoid as the start cable. Since the engine mounted solenoid was switched it didnt matter if it was hot. The cable is still hot, although on a [i think] 50amp curcuit breaker. If I put it on the cable side now, it will briefly try to start before the breaker trips so it is on the house battery side of the boost solenoid. Problem is, that way the two auxillery batteries always actually in parallel with the associated cross drawing issue. Hence my problem.
>
> At the gen compartment, there is another boost solenoid that enables the full amperage to the large cable to the front. The breaker protected cable runs to the cold side of that solenoid as I think this enables the charging of ther rear battery. If it were on the hot side I dont see any cuircuit for charging. Not sure if the buzz box charges it, have not checked that yet.
>
> Complicating the matter further is my plan down the road is to put dual 6 v batteries to relpace both the house battery and the genset battery to enable more capacity for boondocking.
>
> Not sure what my best option is. I think the most simple solution is a Battery selector/disconnect switch for the cable from the rear battery, but this does not solve the alternator charging issue.
>
> Question is, would I be better off with adding a second isolator, replacing the existing 2 pole isolator with a multi pole [marine type] isolator or adding a battery combiner? Any other ideas?
>
>
>
> --
> 76 Glenbrook
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229151 is a reply to message #229149] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 13:14 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Double click on the narrow wide file and it will open. It prints out well, I just checked. Excuse my typing errors in the previous email, spell check does not correct correctly spelled incorrect words.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
On Nov 10, 2013, at 2:05 PM, John Wright <powerjon@chartermi.net> wrote:
> Chris,
> There was a kit out a number of years ago that address that problem with the heat soak issue with the starter. I will set if I still have the brochure and wiring diagram for that. It was a Ford type solenoid in a kit offered by M. A. D. Enterprises in the mid 1980’s.
> I just scanned it into the photo site and it a bit file and it is a PDF file.
> <http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/general-pictures/p51516-starter-hot-soak-information.html>
>
> As a word or warning, your starter could be damage enough that this kit may not work.
>
> JR Wright
> 78 Buskirk Stretch
> 75 Avion
> Michigan
>
> On Nov 10, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Chris Tyler <dtyler11@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The PO had recurrent hot start/no start issues- one of the reasons I got the long deal on my 76 Glenbrook. It has headers, and despite a heat shield it did give me a problem on the way home
>>
>> Having had similar issues with musclecars and heat soaked solenoids I put a remote Ford type starter solenoid up front and ran 3/0 welding cable, putting a jumper on the GM solenoid. It has worked well for me on other vehicles, eliminating heat soak issues plus providing an easy way to bump the engine over for valve adjustment, ect.
>>
>> I also rigged the boost switch to trigger the starter when on momentary on off the house battery in case the primary is dead. It works great, with all three batterys it spins even a hot 455 like no there's no tomorrow.
>>
>> Heres the rub: previously the cable from the genset battery was on the same side of the boost solenoid as the start cable. Since the engine mounted solenoid was switched it didnt matter if it was hot. The cable is still hot, although on a [i think] 50amp curcuit breaker. If I put it on the cable side now, it will briefly try to start before the breaker trips so it is on the house battery side of the boost solenoid. Problem is, that way the two auxillery batteries always actually in parallel with the associated cross drawing issue. Hence my problem.
>>
>> At the gen compartment, there is another boost solenoid that enables the full amperage to the large cable to the front. The breaker protected cable runs to the cold side of that solenoid as I think this enables the charging of ther rear battery. If it were on the hot side I dont see any cuircuit for charging. Not sure if the buzz box charges it, have not checked that yet.
>>
>> Complicating the matter further is my plan down the road is to put dual 6 v batteries to relpace both the house battery and the genset battery to enable more capacity for boondocking.
>>
>> Not sure what my best option is. I think the most simple solution is a Battery selector/disconnect switch for the cable from the rear battery, but this does not solve the alternator charging issue.
>>
>> Question is, would I be better off with adding a second isolator, replacing the existing 2 pole isolator with a multi pole [marine type] isolator or adding a battery combiner? Any other ideas?
>>
>>
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229153 is a reply to message #229144] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 13:33 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Go back to stock
We do not have -hot start - problems
Sent from my iPod
On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Chris Tyler <dtyler11@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> The PO had recurrent hot start/no start issues- one of the reasons I got the long deal on my 76 Glenbrook. It has headers, and despite a heat shield it did give me a problem on the way home
>
> Having had similar issues with musclecars and heat soaked solenoids I put a remote Ford type starter solenoid up front and ran 3/0 welding cable, putting a jumper on the GM solenoid. It has worked well for me on other vehicles, eliminating heat soak issues plus providing an easy way to bump the engine over for valve adjustment, ect.
>
> I also rigged the boost switch to trigger the starter when on momentary on off the house battery in case the primary is dead. It works great, with all three batterys it spins even a hot 455 like no there's no tomorrow.
>
> Heres the rub: previously the cable from the genset battery was on the same side of the boost solenoid as the start cable. Since the engine mounted solenoid was switched it didnt matter if it was hot. The cable is still hot, although on a [i think] 50amp curcuit breaker. If I put it on the cable side now, it will briefly try to start before the breaker trips so it is on the house battery side of the boost solenoid. Problem is, that way the two auxillery batteries always actually in parallel with the associated cross drawing issue. Hence my problem.
>
> At the gen compartment, there is another boost solenoid that enables the full amperage to the large cable to the front. The breaker protected cable runs to the cold side of that solenoid as I think this enables the charging of ther rear battery. If it were on the hot side I dont see any cuircuit for charging. Not sure if the buzz box charges it, have not checked that yet.
>
> Complicating the matter further is my plan down the road is to put dual 6 v batteries to relpace both the house battery and the genset battery to enable more capacity for boondocking.
>
> Not sure what my best option is. I think the most simple solution is a Battery selector/disconnect switch for the cable from the rear battery, but this does not solve the alternator charging issue.
>
> Question is, would I be better off with adding a second isolator, replacing the existing 2 pole isolator with a multi pole [marine type] isolator or adding a battery combiner? Any other ideas?
>
>
>
> --
> 76 Glenbrook
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229156 is a reply to message #229153] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 14:23 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 13:33]Go back to stock
We do not have -hot start - problems
LOL in 40 years Ive had 22 cars or motorcycles [of which I still have 13] and the ONLY one left stock was the Tempo I inherited!
Do you run headers? I know many do without problems, but this one had problems even stock.
Appreciate what you are saying and respect your expertise, but here I went with what I know works well and have used to eliminate the problem on other vehicles with heat soak issues.
The PO had the starter and solenoid replaced several times chasing the problem. I had to crawl under to jump the solenoid at a gas station in S Georgia. Thought I would have to replace them again when I got home but the unit tested fine.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229157 is a reply to message #229156] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 14:29 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Mine has Thorleys on. I've no idea whether the crossover is plugged or no, the paperwork isn't clear. It spins off about as well hot as cold. Sometimes wants to turn slowly for the first compression stroke hot but then winds on up. I figure there's more friction in it hot someplace, either the starter or the engine itself, but as long as it's overcome, I'll soldier on. If/when the starter starts slowing, first step is a new front bushing. Easy and cheep, and cures it more than half the time.
--johnny
From: Chris Tyler <dtyler11@tampabay.rr.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring
[quote title=Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 13:33]Go back to stock
We do not have -hot start - problems
LOL in 40 years Ive had 22 cars or motorcycles [of which I still have 13] and the ONLY one left stock was the Tempo I inherited!
Do you run headers? I know many do without problems, but this one had problems even stock.
Appreciate what you are saying and respect your expertise, but here I went with what I know works well and have used to eliminate the problem on other vehicles with heat soak issues.
The PO had the starter and solenoid replaced several times chasing the problem. I had to crawl under to jump the solenoid at a gas station in S Georgia. Thought I would have to replace them again when I got home but the unit tested fine.
--
76 Glenbrook
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229158 is a reply to message #229151] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 14:31 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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On Nov 10, 2013, at 2:05 PM, John Wright <powerjon@chartermi.net> wrote:
> Chris,
> There was a kit out a number of years ago that address that problem with the heat soak issue with the starter. I will set if I still have the brochure and wiring diagram for that. It was a Ford type solenoid in a kit offered by M. A. D. Enterprises in the mid 1980’s.
> I just scanned it into the photo site and it a bit file and it is a PDF file.
> <http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/general-pictures/p51516-starter-hot-soak-information.html>
>
> As a word or warning, your starter could be damage enough that this kit may not work.
>
> JR Wright
> 78 Buskirk Stretch
> 75 Avion
> Michigan
>
> That is essentially what I did. I have found the ford solenoid more reliable and much easier to access.
The starter itself checked out fine when removed. The switch portion of the solenoid seems to be the issue with these when hot. The part that magnetizes and mechanicly engages the starter drive. I used to use only Echlin units from NAPA but think they have cheapend out now too.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: starter wiring [message #229160 is a reply to message #229148] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 14:44 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Mike Miller wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 12:55 |
Heres the rub: ...
|
Two issues:
1. A 76 Glenbrook left the factory with only two batteries. The engine battery up front, and the house/genset battery in the rear. So, if it has three batteries something has been changed and any advise you get from the net should be evaluated for your application as your coach is (now) not the same as others.
2. You have just changed the system farther from stock and seem to have added even more unintended problems. Why did you use the boost switch as part of the hot start solution? I am fairly sure you didn't use a boost switch on your past applications. (As most of them didn't have one in the first place...)
There is something to be said for keeping systems close to being stock... allowing for new (better?) technology. Believe it or not, the GM engineers actually knew something about automotive design.
IIRC Aren't most hot start problems corrected by removing the accumulated corrosion (about 40 years worth) from the starting circuit? (IE: new battery cables, cleaning the grounds and MAYBE adding an extra ground from the starter to the battery. Yes, I remember the often recommended trick of the extra hot cable from the battery directly to the starter, but that requires a dual post battery. ... and I dislike side posts.)
[/quote]
Good points. I did know they had several configuations on the batteries but did not know the specific layout for this model.I modified the switch so I can crank with either the engine battery only [with the key] or with the boost switch if there is a problem. Wires to house battery in case the house battery is stone dead. Just find it redundant to have to turn the key AND hit the boost switch at the same time, as after all why else would you need to hit it?
I do think part of the problem was ground/ corrosion related so replaced all with much heavier 000 welding cable.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: starter wiring [message #229161 is a reply to message #229148] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 14:54 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=Mike Miller wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 12:55][quote title=Chris Ty I am fairly sure you didn't use a boost switch on your past applications. (As most of them didn't have one in the first place...)
Actually one does. I have a 75 Chevy Monza with a supercharger and nitrous, with dual batteries in the rear. It had major heat soak problems. I use a boost solenoid that ties the two together for starting and an isolator for charging, both of which I picked up as used RV parts back when I was a service tech.
Back to how I wired the boost switch, there were several SOB coaches that worked that way back in the day, and don't really see a downside to it.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229162 is a reply to message #229160] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 15:08 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I do not understand why you would engage the solenoid on the GM starter
with a Ford solenoid. It is just another resistance in the circuit. The
achilles heel in the GM starter solenoid is a small copper disc on the end
of the solenoid plunger that makes contact between the Positive battery
cable and the starter windings. Either the end of the cable stud, the disc
or the internal contactor on the windings is at fault. When they all get
arc damage from repeated use, the best way to mitigate the problem is NOT
BY RUNNING A WHOLE BUNCH MORE AMPERAGE THROUGH THERE!, but by replacing the
whole solenoid or take the old one apart and replace the failed parts. They
are consumable, just like brake linings. They have a finite life of just so
many starts. Just the way it is in the automotive world. You can use an
OLDS Diesel or GM Truck starter solenoid. They are somewhat more robust in
their design. JWID.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Chris Tyler <dtyler11@tampabay.rr.com>wrote:
>
>
> Mike Miller wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 12:55
> > Heres the rub: ...
>
>
> Two issues:
>
> 1. A 76 Glenbrook left the factory with only two batteries. The engine
> battery up front, and the house/genset battery in the rear. So, if it has
> three batteries something has been changed and any advise you get from the
> net should be evaluated for your application as your coach is (now) not the
> same as others.
>
> 2. You have just changed the system farther from stock and seem to have
> added even more unintended problems. Why did you use the boost switch as
> part of the hot start solution? I am fairly sure you didn't use a boost
> switch on your past applications. (As most of them didn't have one in the
> first place...)
>
> There is something to be said for keeping systems close to being stock...
> allowing for new (better?) technology. Believe it or not, the GM engineers
> actually knew something about automotive design.
>
> IIRC Aren't most hot start problems corrected by removing the accumulated
> corrosion (about 40 years worth) from the starting circuit? (IE: new
> battery cables, cleaning the grounds and MAYBE adding an extra ground from
> the starter to the battery. Yes, I remember the often recommended trick of
> the extra hot cable from the battery directly to the starter, but that
> requires a dual post battery. ... and I dislike side posts.)
> [/quote]
>
> Good points. I did know they had several configuations on the batteries
> but did not know the specific layout for this model.I modified the switch
> so I can crank with either the engine battery only [with the key] or with
> the boost switch if there is a problem. Wires to house battery in case the
> house battery is stone dead. Just find it redundant to have to turn the key
> AND hit the boost switch at the same time, as after all why else would you
> need to hit it?
>
> I do think part of the problem was ground/ corrosion related so replaced
> all with much heavier 000 welding cable.
>
>
> --
> 76 Glenbrook
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229181 is a reply to message #229162] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 18:37 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=James Hupy wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 15:08]I do not understand why you would engage the solenoid on the GM starter
with a Ford solenoid. It is just another resistance in the circuit. The
achilles heel in the GM starter solenoid is a small copper disc on the end
of the solenoid plunger that makes contact between the Positive battery
cable and the starter windings. Either the end of the cable stud, the disc
or the internal contactor on the windings is at fault. When they all get
arc damage from repeated use, the best way to mitigate the problem is NOT
BY RUNNING A WHOLE BUNCH MORE AMPERAGE THROUGH THERE!, but by replacing the
whole solenoid or take the old one apart and replace the failed parts. They
are consumable, just like brake linings. They have a finite life of just so
many starts. Just the way it is in the automotive world. You can use an
OLDS Diesel or GM Truck starter solenoid. They are somewhat more robust in
their design. JWID.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
I agree with you re: the GM Achilles Heel. Yes it does add another componant and two large connections, but the Ford solenoid seems to be more robust as well as now much easier to access if there is a problem. It esentially bypasses the switching fuction of the solenoid and leaves the electomechanical action of the GM unit to function. The actual difference in resistance is negligable.
As I said, the solenoid had been replaced [delco] and still looked good
I should also add that I think this coach has either a high comprerssion ratio and/or a lot of initial timing. I also know GM HEIs have advance mechanisms that like to freeze up so I will be checking that, the compression and the initial timing. But as of now, the problem is solved, it fires right up, hot or cold. Now weather that was solved by the larger cable and ground improvements, the remote solenoid mod, or the exorsism of gremlins I cannot be sure. But that issue is fixed.
I am sure that if I have a similar problem I wont have to crawl under a hot coach to try to jump it. I'm not advocating that everyone needs to run out and do this but it worked for me and I intend to keep it this way. I had to include the background to frame the problem, which is how to best isolate the rear battery, either through adding another isolator, changing to a multipole isolator or a battry combiner [the later which I have no experiance with]
Regarding the whole "leave it stock" thingee? Just look at how many coaches have how many other modifications of how many kinds. Its one of the things that attracted me to them, that there is a whole community of enthusiests who love to tinker and look for the unconventional solution as I do.
I don't doubt for a second that Gene Knows what he is talking about, BTW.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: starter wiring [message #229192 is a reply to message #229161] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 19:40 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Chris Tyler wrote on Sun, 10 November 2013 12:54 |
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Back to how I wired the boost switch, there were several SOB coaches that worked that way back in the day, and don't really see a downside to it.
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I'll explain how the stock '75 and up GM coaches boost system was wired and a little on why. You'll need to figure out how the 3rd battery on yours was added and how it effects your systems.
GM noted that the separate generator starting batteries in the early coaches was often dead when owners wanted to start the gen-set. (From lack of generator use.) So they eliminated the third battery by moving the house battery to the rear so it could be used for double duty. As the house battery was charged both when driving and when plugged in, it would be more likely to have some charge when the gen-set needed to be started.
Fine so far, but to maintain the boost feature a large cable was needed from the house battery to the boost switch up front.
This worked but it isn't that good a practice to have a large gauge cable connected directly to the battery without any over current protection. So they added a second solenoid in the back. (If the cable is shorted somewhere between the the operator will know it when he presses the boost switch and the solenoids will loose power. One reason for a momentary boost switch.)
Now they needed to get the charging current from the engine alternator to the batteries in the rear. So, why not use the big cable that is already there? A circuit breaker jumping the rear solenoid was all that was needed to provide a path for the charging current going into and the house power coming out of the battery.
One last thing is on a GM upfitted coach from 1975 on. There is also a connection lug mounted on the wall behind the converter in the hallway cabinets. This is a common connection from the rear solenoid, the front solenoid and the house fuse panel/converter. The cable from that point forward has been a problem on some coaches.
I suspect your PO has connected an additional battery in parallel with one of the two battery banks. While it does work, it is very hard to get balanced for any kind of battery life.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229194 is a reply to message #229173] |
Sun, 10 November 2013 19:54 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""The PO had recurrent hot start/no start issues- one of the reasons I got the long deal on my 76 Glenbrook. It has headers, and despite a heat shield it did give me a problem on the way home
Having had similar issues with musclecars and heat soaked solenoids I put a remote Ford type starter solenoid up front and ran 3/0 welding cable, putting a jumper on the GM solenoid. It has worked well for me on other vehicles, eliminating heat soak issues plus providing an easy way to bump the engine over for valve adjustment, ect.""
Chris, unlike big block Chevy's, the Olds does not have a hot start problem. I suspect your centrifugal advance is stuck in the advanced position.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: starter wiring [message #229237 is a reply to message #229145] |
Mon, 11 November 2013 00:22 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I am convinced that 90% of the no start problems are bad electrical connections. The other 10% are bad bushings, batteries, or bad starters, neutral safety switches, and ignition switches.
The connections to be checked and polished up are:
1. The battery cable to the engine block.
2. The battery cable connection on boost solenoid.
3. The cable connections on the boost solenoid and the starter.
4. The internal connections of the solenoid. (One round copper ring and two copper studs.
5. the battery cable connections on the battery.
I had a problem with the battery cables this spring. I cleaned the connections thoroughly with a battery brush and it did not fix the problems. I only found the problem because I touched one of the cable connections immediately after cranking and it was warm. Where there is heat there is a bad connection. I ended up removing the cables and sanding off some of the already cleaned lead material and reinstalling it.
When cleaning connections I suggest that the connectors be sanded or wire brushed until they are shiny. Then I suggest installing a stainless tooth washer between the connections and coat the connections with anti-oxidation grease available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
On item 4 above if you do not want to clean the solenoid connections, simply replace the solenoid.
This starter system was used on millions of GM vehicles and only a few have the hard to start problems described. Fix what is broken or worn. Do not try a work around.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] starter wiring [message #229448 is a reply to message #229194] |
Tue, 12 November 2013 08:29 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Chris, unlike big block Chevy's, the Olds does not have a hot start problem. I suspect your centrifugal advance is stuck in the advanced position.
[/quote]
Have had that problem before on other cars, but it at least TRIED to turn [whoomp whoomp whoomp!] I checked and althogh it was a bit rusty it was free.
Also my monza runs a a locked out distributor to eliminate idle surge with a roots supercharger and intial advance of 28 degrees. On that I spin the motor over with the ignition off then switch it on, which is also what I can do now on the GMC.
In any case, hot start issue is solved.
76 Glenbrook
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