Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » 4x4 front end conversion
| 4x4 front end conversion [message #227415] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 16:38  |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
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I'm in the early stages of installing a 6.5 turbo diesel in my 1977 Royale and am looking at the possibility of using a 4L85e/transfer case and front drive from a later (late 90's, early 2000's). Other than probably having to extend the front step slightly for trans clearance, and considerable fabrication work to mount the power train, it looks like a doable project. It would fix the biggest problem with the swap in that the gearing could be made to really boost the mileage without killing the performance.
Anyone know of anyone that has taken on this challenge, in this direction that is?
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: 4x4 front end conversion [message #227416 is a reply to message #227415] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 16:49  |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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I don't have much to add, but will say that I'll be watching with great interest. I've often thought that a Cummins turbo-diesel pushing a 5-speed manual gearbox, using the FWD portion would be a great conversion (minus all those "little things" like engineering, measuring, etc.). It sure seems that it would be at least theoretically possible to drop any number of diesel / 4x4 drive trains into the space that's available (particularly if you count space that's currently not part of the engine compartment).
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: 4x4 front end conversion [message #227428 is a reply to message #227415] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 17:38 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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I'll be watching with great interest also. I've been noodling about this for a couple years. I asked a four wheel drive guy once if the front differential would hold up in a full time environment pulling a motorhome and he was iffy.
Personally I believe it will work fine but the engineering may be a challenge.
I'd probably opt for a manual trans.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: 4x4 front end conversion [message #227457 is a reply to message #227428] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 19:32 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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I'd look at using the 9.25" 14 bolt IFS unit up front. I'm sure it's quit a bit stronger than our stock units. Making the transfer case live may be an issue I'll have to do some more research on though. Being able to use the stock starter, no trans adapter,no modifying the oil pan,an overdrive that is built for the motor with great gearing seem like a great direction to go, IMHO.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227466 is a reply to message #227457] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 20:07 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Seems to me, the easy/smart thing to do to evaluate the possibility of
using a 4x4 drive train for FWD only would be to pull the rear drive shaft
from a truck and try it. Get the kinks worked out before going to all the
trouble of butchering a GMC.
JWID,
Ken H.
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Hal StClair <eaglefabrication1@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
> I'd look at using the 9.25" 14 bolt IFS unit up front. I'm sure it's quita bit stronger than our stock units. Making the transfer case live may be
> an issue I'll have to do some more research on though. Being able to use
> the stock starter, no trans adapter,no modifying the oil pan,an overdrive
> that is built for the motor with great gearing seem like a great direction
> to go, IMHO.
> Hal
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227470 is a reply to message #227466] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 20:17 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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Ford has already done exactly that with the handicap busses that were discussed here a while back. The bus was based on an F350 4x4 diesel chassis cab with a custom rear suspension and axle that permitted a lower floor. The bus was propelled by the front axle only.
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Oct 28, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Seems to me, the easy/smart thing to do to evaluate the possibility of
> using a 4x4 drive train for FWD only would be to pull the rear drive shaft
> from a truck and try it. Get the kinks worked out before going to all the
> trouble of butchering a GMC.
>
> JWID,
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Hal StClair <eaglefabrication1@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'd look at using the 9.25" 14 bolt IFS unit up front. I'm sure it's quita bit stronger than our stock units. Making the transfer case live may be
>> an issue I'll have to do some more research on though. Being able to use
>> the stock starter, no trans adapter,no modifying the oil pan,an overdrive
>> that is built for the motor with great gearing seem like a great direction
>> to go, IMHO.
>> Hal
>>
>>
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> GMCnet mailing list
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227478 is a reply to message #227466] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 20:57 |
Jim Rountree
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Karma: 0
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Hal
Several things to look at.
The case on the front axel is aluminum and is not as strong as a cast steel. gears may be the same as rear end units.
You will need to find a special transfer system that is just two gears and a chain heavy enough for full time service.
The front axel housing will need to pass under the oil pan as in the pickup application.
Axel length will need to be determined and may require new length.
The use of a four speed is not the best choice in my opinion because the jump from 3rd to 4th is a move from direct to 70% and is a big jump. Most 5 and 6 speeds give you ratios between the top gear (70%)and direct drive for smaller jumps in this area which should give smoother down shifts while cruising over small hills. Also the 5&6 speeds are computer controlled and would allow better tailoring to our application. The intrusion into the cabin isle is no bigger but is slightly longer. this 24+ inches or so. The new designed 6L80E Chevy started in about 2007.The drag race people use it extensively and lots of mods are available to make bullet proof.
The engine may need to be raised some in the front to clear the axel.
For gas power the 8100 Chevy would be my choice since it has all the bells and whistles and can be found in junkyards and has a history of being mated to the 6 speed.
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB,
76 Royale RB
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227485 is a reply to message #227478] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 21:32 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Jim, I don't disagree that the 6L would be a nicer swap but there are other issues. The price is one of course (me being 'cheap') but I don't think they were offered with the 6.5. The 6.6L used the Allison with a different bolt pattern. They may have used it in some of the vans, I'm not sure. The diesel transmissions were programmed differently from the gassers with unique converters although a 454 trans would have the right pattern for the 6.5.
As for the front diff, GM went with an iron case in 2011 although there are a lot of 5-700 hp rigs running the aluminum center section.
I believe the OD on the 4L85e is a .75 OD and with the motor making max tq at around 1800 rpm, it would probably work pretty well-I'll admit, not as nice as a 6 speed as you suggest.
It'll more than likely need special front axles but the CV's will bolt up nicely.
Anyway, just tossing ideas around at this point. It's great to run it buy some people that think outside the 'box'.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227515 is a reply to message #227470] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 23:25 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Yup. I still think a future possibility for our coaches is the big front wheel drive dodge diesel van drivetrain. Get a few of those into the junkyard then maybe Karen will tackle it and document the whole thing!!
Larry Davick
> On Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17 PM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ford has already done exactly that with the handicap busses that were discussed here a while back. The bus was based on an F350 4x4 diesel chassis cab with a custom rear suspension and axle that permitted a lower floor. The bus was propelled by the front axle only.
>
>
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
>
>
>> On Oct 28, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me, the easy/smart thing to do to evaluate the possibility of
>> using a 4x4 drive train for FWD only would be to pull the rear drive shaft
>> from a truck and try it. Get the kinks worked out before going to all the
>> trouble of butchering a GMC.
>>
>> JWID,
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Hal StClair <eaglefabrication1@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd look at using the 9.25" 14 bolt IFS unit up front. I'm sure it's quita bit stronger than our stock units. Making the transfer case live may be
>>> an issue I'll have to do some more research on though. Being able to use
>>> the stock starter, no trans adapter,no modifying the oil pan,an overdrive
>>> that is built for the motor with great gearing seem like a great direction
>>> to go, IMHO.
>>> Hal
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227518 is a reply to message #227506] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 00:24 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| k2gkk wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 20:48 |
.. and he and his wife Puck have settled in some 40 miles north of Albuquerque. They were at Shawnee convention in March 2012. I don't think this is the same coach, though.
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Actually it is the same coach. I spent some time under it admiring the work it took to get the diesel in there... and looking for the oil leak that was bothering Marc.
The diesel conversion is only part of the amazing things in this coach.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227537 is a reply to message #227532] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 07:14 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Brother, you are thinking in the right direction but trust me as you will see-- all of those wheels have been turned:
I looked at using a 4wd truck chassis-- the driving position was totally in the wrong place. The modifications needed to put the wheels and the driver where they must be was so close to impossible that the mods to do it would be insane.
Then, I looked at an enginnered complete chassis and found the at that time LF-72 Workhorse airport shuttle bus chassis. It was a Duramax turbo diesel, Allison 1000 5 speed trans connected to a heavy duty German transfer case fed to a solid front axle. All air bag susupension, OBDII, ABS brakes, a 22,000 GVW "X" frame chassic with 1.95" rims, all wheel disc brakes that look like they came off the shuttle. Again, the driving position was @ 15" back. We brought the position up 8" (max possible) which made us modify the window compliment-- top deck driver platfor and all the interior back to the entry door.
The entire body of both a 23' and 26' coach were both plopped up on this chassis complete with a full ground effects package. Cost on the modestly outfitted 23' conversion topped $250,000 and the detailed and awesome 26' coach cost over $400,000 to complete and it's still not done to the actors satisfaction which he plans to finish.
As you can see, there is no real way to do projects like these on a low budget and have them a viable, reliable, maintainable travel vehicle. The ending floorplans were not that user friendly, they worked but similar to the "Spruce Goose" it was not practical.
It's fun to squeeze these creative juices into a glass just be sure you don;t choke on trying to drink the concoction! I did, you have to go there to find where "too far" is, I've been there, have the shirt and won't do it again.
Jim Bounds
-------------------------
On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:55 AM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
No Allison in vans with diesels. Stadard HD 4spd. Diesels are detuned, derated from PU's. Allisons won't fit under the floor pans.,,,,,,PL
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| Re: 4x4 front end conversion [message #227544 is a reply to message #227415] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 08:20 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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couple things to add:
first, here is a picture of what has been done(not mine, but he lives close):
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/goshen-indiana-2011-fall-convention/p40502-how-do-you-like-me-now.html
06 1 ton duramax 4x4 pickup front clip. everything else drive line is custom. but it has a driveshaft to the rear, and is powered by the middle axle. the 4wd still is in place and works. there was major customization to steering controls, to make it safe and drivable, and I do not want to guess the time and money involved. It was a 3 year project with a very motivated individual.
Secondly, the dodge promaster cargo vans mentioned. They are out now, but I do not believe they would work at all powering our coaches. Vans are a Unibody construction, and fairly light weight. payload is under 5000 pounds total. complete GVW is 9300 pounds. I do not see that v-6 being able to move our coaches well at all, and the diesel they are offering is not the same one they are offering in the 1/2 ton truck. it is a 4 cylinder diesel. Their 1/2 ton truck is coming with a v-6 diesel. I would not know if there could be a swap between the two, but I would believe that 4 cylinder diesel for the front wheel drive van would not pull our coaches along either.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion [message #227546 is a reply to message #227537] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 08:32 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Jim,
I was particularly happy to read:
"It's fun to squeeze these creative juices into a glass just be sure you don't choke on trying to drink the concoction! I did, you
have to go there to find where "too far" is, I've been there, have the shirt and won't do it again."
You need the stress of building one off creations such as the Dura Max coaches like the proverbial "hole in the head!"
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:14 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion
Brother, you are thinking in the right direction but trust me as you will see-- all of those wheels have been turned:
I looked at using a 4wd truck chassis-- the driving position was totally in the wrong place. The modifications needed to put the
wheels and the driver where they must be was so close to impossible that the mods to do it would be insane.
Then, I looked at an enginnered complete chassis and found the at that time LF-72 Workhorse airport shuttle bus chassis. It was a
Duramax turbo diesel, Allison 1000 5 speed trans connected to a heavy duty German transfer case fed to a solid front axle. All air
bag susupension, OBDII, ABS brakes, a 22,000 GVW "X" frame chassic with 1.95" rims, all wheel disc brakes that look like they came
off the shuttle. Again, the driving position was @ 15" back. We brought the position up 8" (max possible) which made us modify the
window compliment-- top deck driver platfor and all the interior back to the entry door.
The entire body of both a 23' and 26' coach were both plopped up on this chassis complete with a full ground effects package. Cost
on the modestly outfitted 23' conversion topped $250,000 and the detailed and awesome 26' coach cost over $400,000 to complete and
it's still not done to the actors satisfaction which he plans to finish.
As you can see, there is no real way to do projects like these on a low budget and have them a viable, reliable, maintainable travel
vehicle. The ending floorplans were not that user friendly, they worked but similar to the "Spruce Goose" it was not practical.
It's fun to squeeze these creative juices into a glass just be sure you don;t choke on trying to drink the concoction! I did, you
have to go there to find where "too far" is, I've been there, have the shirt and won't do it again.
Jim Bounds
-------------------------
On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:55 AM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
No Allison in vans with diesels. Stadard HD 4spd. Diesels are detuned, derated from PU's. Allisons won't fit under the floor
pans.,,,,,,PL
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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