Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Oil Temperature
| Oil Temperature [message #226315] |
Sun, 20 October 2013 18:56  |
Jerry Hartley
Messages: 17
Registered: May 2004
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Can anyone tell me the acceptable engine oil operating temperature for a CAD 500 GMC Birchaven using Mobil-1 synthetic oil?
Thank you
Jerry
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| Re: Oil Temperature [message #226389 is a reply to message #226315] |
Mon, 21 October 2013 10:29  |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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I'm not an expert at oil temps. Only one oil temp gauge ever. On my 507 with dual remote filters, then stock tank cooler then back. The dual remote has 2 ins and 2 outs. Pugged one out and temp sensor in the xtra "in". 235 degrees,,,lower to jmid 90's. Ac on. About 1500 to 1800 lbs trailer. mostly flat. i always thougt that was kinda high. But my opionion is worthless. Not enough data!! ,,,,,PL
500 Caddy, Hubler conversion
Manny tranny, galvanized frame
Not FI and still no dash!
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #226416 is a reply to message #226397] |
Mon, 21 October 2013 13:00 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Paul,
Any photos of what they look like / instructions on how to incorporate them?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Leavitt
A little more. 3.43 gears. I also have forged rods with whats called "spitters". These are small slots cut along the edge of the
rods bearing surface. Aimed at the bottom of the piston they are supposed to throw or spit oil on the bottom of the forged pistons.
My oil might run a little hot. But maybe the pistons run a hair cooler.,,,,,PL
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #226447 is a reply to message #226442] |
Mon, 21 October 2013 14:48 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Paul,
Good lateral pass, I'll chase it from here!
Thanks!,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul Leavitt
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 2:05 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature
Rob,,,I don't think I have any closeups of the spitter notch. They are "PEP" forged rods for the cad 500. The machinest called them
that when I gave him all the parts for ballancing. How they work is like to much clearance (side) on the rods. That would throw oil
in all directions.These knotches or slots are on the side of the rod facing the sister rod (not the crank cheek) and are aimed
strait up. Hope this helps. Might go to the cadillac power forum and do a PEP rod search.,,,,PL
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Oil Temperature [message #227496 is a reply to message #226315] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 22:05 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Jerry Hartley wrote on Sun, 20 October 2013 17:56 |
Can anyone tell me the acceptable engine oil operating temperature for a CAD 500 GMC Birchaven using Mobil-1 synthetic oil?
Thank you
Jerry
|
Jerry, you should never see sustained temperatures over 270 F. 230 F would be an acceptable sustained temperature.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Oil Temperature [message #227502 is a reply to message #227496] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 22:25 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 22:05 |
you should never see sustained temperatures over 270 F. 230 F would be an acceptable sustained temperature.
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I would agree with this (max 270F) for conventional oil. You can go a little higher with synthetic, as high as 300F briefly. Oil breakdown is a time-at-temperature phenomenon, ie it breaks down more rapidly at elevated temperatures. So keep in mind that every minute that you run at temps above, say 250-260, you are rapidly shortening the life of your oil.
Ideally you'd like to run all day at 230-250F. One of the downsides of higher numeric final drive ratios is that RPM is the single greatest factor in raising oil temps (with load and ambient temp close behind). The sustained temp needs to be above 212F to boil off water and gasoline that can get in the crankcase.
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
[Updated on: Mon, 28 October 2013 22:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Oil Temperature [message #227508 is a reply to message #227502] |
Mon, 28 October 2013 23:01 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 21:25 |
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 22:05 |
you should never see sustained temperatures over 270 F. 230 F would be an acceptable sustained temperature.
|
I would agree with this (max 270F) for conventional oil. You can go a little higher with synthetic, as high as 300F briefly. Oil breakdown is a time-at-temperature phenomenon, ie it breaks down more rapidly at elevated temperatures. So keep in mind that every minute that you run at temps above, say 250-260, you are rapidly shortening the life of your oil.
Ideally you'd like to run all day at 230-250F. One of the downsides of higher numeric final drive ratios is that RPM is the single greatest factor in raising oil temps (with load and ambient temp close behind). The sustained temp needs to be above 212F to boil off water and gasoline that can get in the crankcase.
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I agree that synthetics can sustain higher temps, but the root cause of any oil temp that high would show problems somewhere in the thermal management system.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #227574 is a reply to message #227508] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 11:04 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
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Am I incorrect in thinking that higher RPM at lighter engine loading might likely be a "wash" or even possibly an improvement regarding oil temperature rise?
Mac in OKC
Money Pit - '76 ex-PB
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 28, 2013, at 23:01, "Bob de Kruyff" <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM> wrote:
>
>
>
> mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 21:25
>> Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 22:05
>>> you should never see sustained temperatures over 270 F. 230 F would be an acceptable sustained temperature.
>>
>>
>> I would agree with this (max 270F) for conventional oil. You can go a little higher with synthetic, as high as 300F briefly. Oil breakdown is a time-at-temperature phenomenon, ie it breaks down more rapidly at elevated temperatures. So keep in mind that every minute that you run at temps above, say 250-260, you are rapidly shortening the life of your oil.
>> Ideally you'd like to run all day at 230-250F. One of the downsides of higher numeric final drive ratios is that RPM is the single greatest factor in raising oil temps (with load and ambient temp close behind). The sustained temp needs to be above 212F to boil off water and gasoline that can get in the crankcase.
>
> I agree that synthetics can sustain higher temps, but the root cause of any oil temp that high would show problems somewhere in the thermal management system.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #227585 is a reply to message #227574] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 11:46 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Mac, heat gain in oil or coolant can be described as thermal cycles or
pulses per second or minute. If a finite amount of air/fuel is burned in a
unit of time, the more units that are burned per second or minute has the
gross effect of heating the coolant/oil more. However, throttle opening
plays a huge part in this equation. If the load is consistently the same,
numerically, this problem can be expressed as a mathematical formula to
determine radiator and oil pan requirements. However, if the gearing
changes to lessen the torque requirements with regard to load, throttle
opening is greatly reduced, the amount of air/fuel required is less, and
heat soak is reduced. Simple, no? Something to armchair quarterback about
during the long winter for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403 w/3:70 - 1 final drive that gets better fuel milage with
more RPM's because of it.
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:04 AM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
> Am I incorrect in thinking that higher RPM at lighter engine loading might
> likely be a "wash" or even possibly an improvement regarding oil
> temperature rise?
>
> Mac in OKC
> Money Pit - '76 ex-PB
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 23:01, "Bob de Kruyff" <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 21:25
> >> Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 22:05
> >>> you should never see sustained temperatures over 270 F. 230 F would be
> an acceptable sustained temperature.
> >>
> >>
> >> I would agree with this (max 270F) for conventional oil. You can go a
> little higher with synthetic, as high as 300F briefly. Oil breakdown is a
> time-at-temperature phenomenon, ie it breaks down more rapidly at elevated
> temperatures. So keep in mind that every minute that you run at temps
> above, say 250-260, you are rapidly shortening the life of your oil.
> >> Ideally you'd like to run all day at 230-250F. One of the downsides of
> higher numeric final drive ratios is that RPM is the single greatest factor
> in raising oil temps (with load and ambient temp close behind). The
> sustained temp needs to be above 212F to boil off water and gasoline that
> can get in the crankcase.
> >
> > I agree that synthetics can sustain higher temps, but the root cause of
> any oil temp that high would show problems somewhere in the thermal
> management system.
> > --
> > Bob de Kruyff
> > 78 Eleganza
> > Chandler, AZ
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #227592 is a reply to message #227585] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 12:08 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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I also suspect (intuition here) that as long as the engine's reserve cooling capacity for oil and coolant is sufficient, those oil and coolant temperatures will remain in a safe range. In any event, assuming that I can resurrect or replace my engine and move to a 3.70 (3.73?) final drive, there will be less strain on the engine AND the cooling. Tech sessions at conventions have also claimed improvements in fuel consumption.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 09:46:27 -0700
> From: jamesh1296@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature
>
> Mac, heat gain in oil or coolant can be described as thermal cycles or
> pulses per second or minute. If a finite amount of air/fuel is burned in a
> unit of time, the more units that are burned per second or minute has the
> gross effect of heating the coolant/oil more. However, throttle opening
> plays a huge part in this equation. If the load is consistently the same,
> numerically, this problem can be expressed as a mathematical formula to
> determine radiator and oil pan requirements. However, if the gearing
> changes to lessen the torque requirements with regard to load, throttle
> opening is greatly reduced, the amount of air/fuel required is less, and
> heat soak is reduced. Simple, no? Something to armchair quarterback about
> during the long winter for sure.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403 w/3:70 - 1 final drive that gets better fuel milage with
> more RPM's because of it.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:04 AM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Am I incorrect in thinking that higher RPM at lighter engine loading might
> > likely be a "wash" or even possibly an improvement regarding oil
> > temperature rise?
> >
> > Mac in OKC
> > Money Pit - '76 ex-PB
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #227601 is a reply to message #227592] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 13:31 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I also suspect (intuition here) that as long as the engine's reserve cooling capacity for oil and coolant is sufficient, those oil and coolant temperatures will remain in a safe range. In any event, assuming that I can resurrect or replace my engine and move to a 3.70 (3.73?) final drive, there will be less strain on the engine AND the cooling. Tech sessions at conventions have also claimed improvements in fuel consumption.""
The whole issue of oil temperature and any other temperature for that matter gets very complicated. It's a total system and anyone issue can throw it all out of balance. Adding coolers in front of each other can fix one issue and make another worse. Certainly engine load is a biggy, but then the transmission temperature gets into the picture as well. With all of the things we tend to do to our GMC's, I wouldn't make any guesses of what is better or worse in trying to control temperatures.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #227654 is a reply to message #227585] |
Tue, 29 October 2013 20:25 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 11:46 |
Mac, heat gain in oil or coolant can be described as thermal cycles or
pulses per second or minute. If a finite amount of air/fuel is burned in a
unit of time, the more units that are burned per second or minute has the
gross effect of heating the coolant/oil more. However, throttle opening
plays a huge part in this equation. If the load is consistently the same,
numerically, this problem can be expressed as a mathematical formula to
determine radiator and oil pan requirements. However, if the gearing
changes to lessen the torque requirements with regard to load, throttle
opening is greatly reduced, the amount of air/fuel required is less, and
heat soak is reduced. Simple, no? Something to armchair quarterback about
during the long winter for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403 w/3:70 - 1 final drive that gets better fuel milage with
more RPM's because of it.
|
| On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:04 AM |
D C _Mac_ Macdonald wrote:
> Am I incorrect in thinking that higher RPM at lighter engine loading might
> likely be a "wash" or even possibly an improvement regarding oil
> temperature rise?
|
When the gear ratio is numerically increased the engine will run at a higer rpm but lower load for a given amount of work. At this higher rpm, but lower load, the engine will produce more net waste heat at steady-state due to the increased frictional losses. This results in higher oil temps (the rpm effect outweighs the load effect for a given engine output). Also keep in mind that the amount of heat rejeted to the oil or coolant in a given cycle or "pulse" is affected by the ignition timing and air fuel ratio, which vary with speed and load (and level of tune).
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil Temperature [message #227699 is a reply to message #227574] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 06:33 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| k2gkk wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 12:04 |
Am I incorrect in thinking that higher RPM at lighter engine loading might likely be a "wash" or even possibly an improvement regarding oil temperature rise?
Mac in OKC
Money Pit - '76 ex-PB
|
Mac,
I have only run a very few fully instrumented vehicles, but I have years of experience with engines on test stands and have done many total heat balances.
Heat rejection though all means is substantially related to the indicated horsepower (horsepower at the piston crown), this number does vary some from the output horsepower, but not by very much. As a vehicle being driven under any specific conditions (regardless of crankshaft speed) will require the same horsepower and hence will have the same amount of heat to reject. Stirring things faster may cause the heat rejection to appear to improve, but in actual fact, it is not.
The thing to worry yourself about with dino oil is that when an oil molecule get heated to 305°F, it ceases to be a lubricant ever again. There is no time/temperature issue here. Just the event. Synthetic lube oils can take a higher temperature (I don't know what that is), but I do know that the same story is true.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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