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| The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225389] |
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:33  |
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Dan Borlase
Messages: 743
Registered: May 2008
Location: Kelowna B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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Got back to Kelowna form the Coos Bay rally on Thursday night...
The good...the rally was simply the best...the Works (and co.) really know how to do it right, (under statement)
Hanging out with friends, doing the GMC coach thing, eating food fit for the gods, tech sections that create answerers with clarity...that IS as good as it gets,...loved it BIG TIME !!
The bad...had battery recharging issues which pointed to a dead battery and the PD9260 not working...went through the rally borrowing other peoples battery chargers to keep us functional...thank you to Jim Hupy,,,God loves you, and so do we...
The ugly...looks like we may have lost an eng....hope not. The story is that we were "eating" coolant for most of the trip...nothing showing on the ground (nothing)...therefor the only thing I can see is that we have developed a bleed into one or more of the cylinders, which would "burn" off the coolant.
I will pull both heads and have a look at things...god willing, we will need a set of head gaskets, intake gaskets and that is all. I will replace the water pump, thermostat and anything else that seems in trouble.
I have spoken to several good people interested in the stretch...I wont let it go down the road in less than functional working order...
If any of "my new friends" have a theory as to whether there is a coolant stealing fairy or gremlin...now would be a good time to speak up...
Dan...who has some work to do...
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225408 is a reply to message #225389] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:06  |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Dan,
Before you do that, drain the oil and have it analyzed. For $25 you could
find out that you do not need a new engine. Because of the tremendous
amount of coolant hoses on a GMC, the possibility for undetectable leaks is
tremendous. If you have a "black" light, coolant leaks leave nearly
phosphorous like visibility and are quite easy to find. I bought an
incredibly bright, strong black LED light on Ebay that even works in
daylight. This could save you quite a bit of grief.
Steve F.
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Dan Borlase <bord@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Got back to Kelowna form the Coos Bay rally on Thursday night...
>
> The good...the rally was simply the best...the Works (and co.) really know
> how to do it right, (under statement)
> Hanging out with friends, doing the GMC coach thing, eating food fit for
> the gods, tech sections that create answerers with clarity...that IS as
> good as it gets,...loved it BIG TIME !!
>
> The bad...had battery recharging issues which pointed to a dead battery
> and the PD9260 not working...went through the rally borrowing other peoples
> battery chargers to keep us functional...thank you to Jim Hupy,,,God loves
> you, and so do we...
>
> The ugly...looks like we may have lost an eng....hope not. The story is
> that we were "eating" coolant for most of the trip...nothing showing on the
> ground (nothing)...therefor the only thing I can see is that we have
> developed a bleed into one or more of the cylinders, which would "burn" off
> the coolant.
> I will pull both heads and have a look at things...god willing, we will
> need a set of head gaskets, intake gaskets and that is all. I will replace
> the water pump, thermostat and anything else that seems in trouble.
>
> I have spoken to several good people interested in the stretch...I wont
> let it go down the road in less than functional working order...
>
> If any of "my new friends" have a theory as to whether there is a coolant
> stealing fairy or gremlin...now would be a good time to speak up...
>
> Dan...who has some work to do...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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>
--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225410 is a reply to message #225389] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:38 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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I really wish it had been in the cards for us to attend the big rally on the west coast. Frankly, we're just not ready for that big a trip yet....we were lucky to make Branson and back... 
Having just gone down that road this year, I'll ditto the oil test as absolutely the first thing you do. If there is coolant present but no copper or other high metals, the engine might just be fine with nothing but new head gaskets. It is also the easiest way to determine if the coolant leak is actually going into the engine. If the test comes back negative, you've dodged a major bullet although you might still have some work to do finding the leak.
On the other hand, if you've got significant copper in the oil, you've got issues in the bottom end. For me, the copper was the telling fact that made me pull the engine and rebuild it. There isn't any reason for there to be copper in the oil but bearing wear which can happen pretty quick when coolant gets into the oil.
There are only a few possibilities for how coolant can get into the oil.
In no particular order:
- Intake gasket
- Head gasket
- Cracked head
- Oil cooler in radiator
- Cracked intake (never heard of one but it's possible)
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225411 is a reply to message #225389] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:42 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Oh, one more thing. I chased a lot of external leaks also. One that took forever to find was this TINY pinhole in the heater hose right at the rear of the intake. When the engine was running it evaporated and as soon as the engine cooled down, there was no pressure to push it out. The only reason I found it was because I had laid a paper shop towel there and noticed it was wet. I started looking and could feel it but still not see it until I got a mirror.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225430 is a reply to message #225426] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 11:17 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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this is the place I use $12.
Associated Laboratories
2103 Magnolia Avenue
Knoxville, TN 37917
865-524-3563
Might also check freeze plugs for leakage under the exhaust manifolds. The ones in the rear of the block are hard to check for leaks as they are behind the flex plate.
| Dan Borlase wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 11:45 |
...thanks for the input guys...would you believe four (4) gallons
of coolant over the trip !! I thought it odd that it was low when I checked it at Coos...but it has become chronic as we traveled home.
I agree that oil analyzing is the way to go...does anyone have an address??
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225433 is a reply to message #225389] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 11:53 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Dan,
while you're waiting for lab reports consider the following;
1.If you were losing that volume of coolant into a cylinder and burning it you should have been producing prodigious amounts of white steam out the tail pipe. If you're old enough to remember DDT sprayers- it looks like that. Additionally, you may have had a miss in one or two cylinders and rough running- especially at start up.
I have experienced the above while losing far less coolant than you describe. Not even enough to require adding in a 400 mile trip.
Pull the spark plugs and spin the engine- one or more cylinders may pump water out. If you don't pump water then do a compression test.
Autozone and Orielly's loan compression testers.
They also loan cooling system pressurizing pumps and gauges. Pump up the system and see if it holds pressure-If not look for the leaks.
2. If the coolant is flowing into the oil system/crank case then you should be seeing brownish, goopy, mud on the dipstick after the water and oil are emulsified. If have that-don't worry about #3- you've got coolant in there.
3. When you drain the oil to take your lab sample watch what comes out first. Oil floats on water- If you have any significant amount of coolant in the pan it will exit before the oil.
4. Pray that it's just a simple head gasket.
Good luck!
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225462 is a reply to message #225420] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 14:13 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Maybe, depends on how much material is removed. Dick Paterson made a presentation on engine building and he noted that the OEM head
gaskets were thin and no longer available. Unfortunately I did not write down the thickness of the OEM gaskets and the ones
available now and how much both of them crush.
If you only shave off as much off the heads to offset the effect of the thinner head gasket it seems to me that the manifold would
fit without machining.
IF
You use a turkey tray or a set of Dick's crossover block off gaskets. The 0.060 thick aftermarket gaskets could cause a problem.
Dick did note that he measures the intake valley and the manifold and makes sure the fit is correct on any engine he builds, if
necessary he machines the intake to fit.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of David H. Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 10:24 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly...
If you shave the heads, does the intake manifold have to be machined also?
--
"I've always been crazy, but it kept me from going insane"
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225463 is a reply to message #225431] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 14:13 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Four gallons is a lot. If its going into the pistons as someone already said it should show up in the exhaust. If its going into the oil pan the level should be rising on your dipstick and the oil should be a brownish emulsion.
If none of the above if is probably an external leak. (Hopefully). I would borrow or rent a cooling system test pump. I have a Stanton one. You hook it to the top of the radiation and pump it up. The gauge shows the pressure. If it falls over time you have a leak. You can then look over the surface of the radiator, the heater box, hoses, etc and usually find a leak that you might not see with the engine fan running.
I don't know if Autozone, O'Rielly or Advance have the pressure tester in their tool loaner program
You don't say where you live. If you are close to me you can use mine.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
On Oct 13, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Dan Borlase <bord@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Emery...the water exchange is not hooked up. Can't find any evidence of external leakage anywhere...on coolant odor either...
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225476 is a reply to message #225463] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 16:03 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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It might be a good idea to bypass around the cabin heater core and the water heater (if installed).
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
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> From: emerystora@me.com
> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 13:13:40 -0600
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly...
>
> Four gallons is a lot. If its going into the pistons as someone already said it should show up in the exhaust. If its going into the oil pan the level should be rising on your dipstick and the oil should be a brownish emulsion.
>
> If none of the above if is probably an external leak. (Hopefully). I would borrow or rent a cooling system test pump. I have a Stanton one. You hook it to the top of the radiation and pump it up. The gauge shows the pressure. If it falls over time you have a leak. You can then look over the surface of the radiator, the heater box, hoses, etc and usually find a leak that you might not see with the engine fan running.
>
> I don't know if Autozone, O'Rielly or Advance have the pressure tester in their tool loaner program
>
> You don't say where you live. If you are close to me you can use mine.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
>
> On Oct 13, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Dan Borlase <bord@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks Emery...the water exchange is not hooked up. Can't find any evidence of external leakage anywhere...on coolant odor either...
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225480 is a reply to message #225474] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 16:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Dan, take your belts off and check the water pump. Also the lower radiator
hose clamp on the pump. If you don't have any water in the oil, do a
cylinder balance test. If you have water leaking into a cylinder, you
should have a really white insulator on the spark plug from that cylinder.
Hey, don't over eat, and take time to tell Judy how much you love her. You
can work on the Stretch tomorrow.
Jim n Judy Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Oct 13, 2013 1:52 PM, "Dan Borlase" <bord@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Emery...I see no discolored (brown) oil/water on the dipstick what
> so ever...I will do a pressure test and pull the plugs as well as drain the
> oil.
> We live in Kelowna B.C. Canada...borrowing tools is a generous thing but
> not practical, thank you for the offer.
>
> This is our Thanks Giving week end in Canada which means Family, Food and
> a thank full attitude...and although stuff happens, I choose to remain
> grateful...!
>
> Dan...keeping his head on straight...
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225487 is a reply to message #225474] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 17:39 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Dan Borlase wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:51 |
Thanks Emery...I see no discolored (brown) oil/water on the dipstick what so ever...I will do a pressure test and pull the plugs as well as drain the oil.
We live in Kelowna B.C. Canada...borrowing tools is a generous thing but not practical, thank you for the offer.
This is our Thanks Giving week end in Canada which means Family, Food and a thank full attitude...and although stuff happens, I choose to remain grateful...!
Dan...keeping his head on straight...
|
Dan,
Sit down and relax.
If you have gone through 4 Gallons (Imperial or US - no matter) and the lube oil does not look like a chocolate shake, then I would bet a significant amount that you do not have an internal problem. If you had actually leaked a gallon into the lube oil, you would not have made it home with the engine intact.
That said, we have more than a few examples of coolant leaks not being what we suspected. (¿Right Ken?!) A little tiny leak under pressure can piss out a lot of coolant in a relatively short period of time. The trick is always finding the ******g thing.
You don't have a cooling system pressure tester.
OK, want a cheap, sleazy but very effective alternative?
Get 2 short pieces of 1/4 pipe, one cap, one coupling and a 1/4 schrader. Take the valve out of the heater line and put the capped off piece in one side and the one with the schader in the other. It really doesn't matter which. NOTE: Don't clamp the hose on the threads as this may tear up the hose and it can also leak. (Sound like BTDT - Does it?)
(If you want to be fancy... get 2 coupling and a 30psi gage.)
Put pressure on the system and start looking and listening. The real advantage here is that the cold coolant (or water by now) will not evaporate as soon as it escapes. (If you have the gage, you even get to see it fall.) Without a tester, you can't exceed the radiator pressure cap, but that should still be enough to make it leak.
I know lots of cheap and dirty ways to do things, and a few right ways - too.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] The good ,bad and ugly... [message #225496 is a reply to message #225433] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 18:03 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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for me for my shuttles it is always a slightly loose hose that steams out at high pressure. Just tightening the hoses some times
can be it. If you get white gook at the top of your oil add pipe shows it is in the engine. Ideas for reason and thought.
Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach. It is always a happy event when it is something simple. Pray for simple. :-)
I have not read the whole thread so for give me if i am out of the box. :-(
On Oct 13, 2013, at 9:53 AM, gene barrow wrote:
>
>
> Dan,
> while you're waiting for lab reports consider the following;
> 1.If you were losing that volume of coolant into a cylinder and burning it you should have been producing prodigious amounts of white steam out the tail pipe. If you're old enough to remember DDT sprayers- it looks like that. Additionally, you may have had a miss in one or two cylinders and rough running- especially at start up.
> I have experienced the above while losing far less coolant than you describe. Not even enough to require adding in a 400 mile trip.
>
> Pull the spark plugs and spin the engine- one or more cylinders may pump water out. If you don't pump water then do a compression test.
> Autozone and Orielly's loan compression testers.
> They also loan cooling system pressurizing pumps and gauges. Pump up the system and see if it holds pressure-If not look for the leaks.
>
> 2. If the coolant is flowing into the oil system/crank case then you should be seeing brownish, goopy, mud on the dipstick after the water and oil are emulsified. If have that-don't worry about #3- you've got coolant in there.
>
> 3. When you drain the oil to take your lab sample watch what comes out first. Oil floats on water- If you have any significant amount of coolant in the pan it will exit before the oil.
>
> 4. Pray that it's just a simple head gasket.
>
> Good luck!
> --
> Gene Barrow
> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> 1976 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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