Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
| [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225372] |
Sat, 12 October 2013 19:24  |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I think the PO has the timing set too far advanced. When she's warm she's a bear to start.
How do you see the timing marks? What's the best method?
The dizzy will not rotate, it is completely stuck. Please tell me the 403 has a standard GM-type fiber gasket, not a Ford-type o-ring seal. I've soaked it with PB Blaster, and tried a crescent wrench, then hammering a crescent wrench on the shaft. Still not moved a hair.
The PO of my jetboat had an automotive dizzy installed in the 429 (huge no-no). Same deal, wouldn't budge. I had to cinch it to my garage rafters with a 5k ratchet strap in order to pull it to replace it with a marine dizzy. I could have hooked up my bass rig to the strap and played a bit. Even with the force on it, I still had to beat it with a hammer to get it to slowly slide out. The vac advance unit was shredded from all the hammering on it. I'm hoping for no repeat performance here.
Oh, and yes, I did loosen the hold down clamp. LOL
Thanks!
Jeff Marten
Colorado Springs, Co
1978 Royale
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225378 is a reply to message #225372] |
Sat, 12 October 2013 20:33  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Jeff Marten wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 20:24 |
I think the PO has the timing set too far advanced. When she's warm she's a bear to start.
How do you see the timing marks? What's the best method?
The dizzy will not rotate, it is completely stuck. Please tell me the 403 has a standard GM-type fiber gasket, not a Ford-type o-ring seal. I've soaked it with PB Blaster, and tried a crescent wrench, then hammering a crescent wrench on the shaft. Still not moved a hair.
The PO of my jetboat had an automotive dizzy installed in the 429 (huge no-no). Same deal, wouldn't budge. I had to cinch it to my garage rafters with a 5k ratchet strap in order to pull it to replace it with a marine dizzy. I could have hooked up my bass rig to the strap and played a bit. Even with the force on it, I still had to beat it with a hammer to get it to slowly slide out. The vac advance unit was shredded from all the hammering on it. I'm hoping for no repeat performance here.
Oh, and yes, I did loosen the hold down clamp. LOL
Thanks!
Jeff Marten
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Jeff,
I can't help you with the stuck part.
(Did you try heat?)
(Did you try MORE heat?) 
But as to the timing marks (timing saw and damper cut), they are just about impossible to see. They are on the forward left front of the engine - at the damper edge, and if you don't have a belly board across the engine bay - you don't even stand a chance.
They are not even easy to see if the engine is on a stand. But, if you lay down on the belly board and push the timing light between the hoses and sight just over the top of it, you can do it. You will be looking behind the belts.
Good Luck Guy
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225379 is a reply to message #225378] |
Sat, 12 October 2013 20:37 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Thanks Matt, I'll give that a shot.
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 20:33:52 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
>
>
>
> Jeff Marten wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 20:24
> > I think the PO has the timing set too far advanced. When she's warm she's a bear to start.
> >
> > How do you see the timing marks? What's the best method?
> >
> > The dizzy will not rotate, it is completely stuck. Please tell me the 403 has a standard GM-type fiber gasket, not a Ford-type o-ring seal. I've soaked it with PB Blaster, and tried a crescent wrench, then hammering a crescent wrench on the shaft. Still not moved a hair.
> > The PO of my jetboat had an automotive dizzy installed in the 429 (huge no-no). Same deal, wouldn't budge. I had to cinch it to my garage rafters with a 5k ratchet strap in order to pull it to replace it with a marine dizzy. I could have hooked up my bass rig to the strap and played a bit. Even with the force on it, I still had to beat it with a hammer to get it to slowly slide out. The vac advance unit was shredded from all the hammering on it. I'm hoping for no repeat performance here.
> >
> > Oh, and yes, I did loosen the hold down clamp. LOL
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Jeff Marten
>
> Jeff,
>
> I can't help you with the stuck part.
> (Did you try heat?)
> (Did you try MORE heat?) ;)
>
> But as to the timing marks (timing saw and damper cut), they are just about impossible to see. They are on the forward left front of the engine - at the damper edge, and if you don't have a belly board across the engine bay - you don't even stand a chance.
>
> They are not even easy to see if the engine is on a stand. But, if you lay down on the belly board and push the timing light between the hoses and sight just over the top of it, you can do it. You will be looking behind the belts.
>
> Good Luck Guy
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
> Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225382 is a reply to message #225379] |
Sat, 12 October 2013 21:13 |
jim kanomata
Messages: 257
Registered: March 2007
Location: fremont,ca
Karma: 12
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The best thing to do is to take it out and remove the gear and pull th shaft out and wash it with solvent an use synthetic grease to lub.
Sometimes you might need to use some type of wire brush to remove the gummed up grease.
This happens as the rotor gets extremely hot under load.
Make sure the Plug gas is .038.
This is a common problem ,but most are not aware that it is happening to them.
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225384 is a reply to message #225382] |
Sat, 12 October 2013 21:26 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Thanks Jim
I'd love to pull it out! That'd mean it would rotate so I could adjust the timing. IF I can get it to rotate without breaking the dizzy shaft housing, I'll likely pull it just to clean and grease the dist bore.
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 21:13:08 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
>
>
>
> The best thing to do is to take it out and remove the gear and pull th shaft out and wash it with solvent an use synthetic grease to lub.
> Sometimes you might need to use some type of wire brush to remove the gummed up grease.
> This happens as the rotor gets extremely hot under load.
> Make sure the Plug gas is .038.
> This is a common problem ,but most are not aware that it is happening to them.
> --
> Applied/GMC, Fremont, CA
> 1-800-752-7502
> jimk@appliedgmc.com
> www.appliedgmc.com
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225394 is a reply to message #225372] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 01:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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The Distributor is stuck due to bi-metal (Aluminum distributor and steel engine) corrosion. Penetrating oil and heat are the only way other than brute force to loosen it up. That said, I know you would like it loose but I doubt it has moved and the static timing is probably still correct.
I would be putting a timing light on it first. Go to the bottom of the engine looking up and crank it over until you can see the timing mark on the balancer. Then paint the line white. I like to use white out to paint the stripe but white paint will also do. Now attach the timing light and look down at the mark from the top. You are going to have to position your head all the way to the front of the engine and look almost straight down. Make sure the vacuum advance is disconnected and plugged with the engine idling around 700 to 800 RPM.
Retarded timing engines start easier.
If it is not pinging under load then you really do not want to be changing the static timing. If you really believe it is timing related problem then check the mechanical advance (located below the rotor) to make sure it is not stuck. Then check vacuum advance to see that it also moves freely. Also check to make sure that someone has not changed / moved the vacuum line to manifold vacuum. That vacuum line should go to the TVS and on to the front of the carb.
An interesting observation that I made on my computer controlled Colorado is GM has it set to 4 BTC during cranking. It also goes to 4 BTC when I completely leave off of the gas. We can not get a GMC that low but the base (static) timing of 8 to 12 BTDC works fine.
If you have hot start problems and the two advances are not the problem, then I would be looking at battery cables or the starter and solenoid. Battery cable connections can look clean and still cause a problem. I would remove the cables and clean them thoroughly with a wire brush followed by sand paper. Also clean and sandpaper the battery cable connections between the boost solenoid and the starter. Verify that the engine starting battery ground is connected to a bolt on the engine block. IT SHOULD NEVER BE CONNECTED TO THE FRAME OR BODY. I like to use tooth / star washers and anti-oxidation grease on all battery connections when I reassemble them.
If the above does not fix your problems then remove the starter and check the contacts inside the solenoid. Also the commutator and brushes of the starter.
Good Luck
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225407 is a reply to message #225372] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:01 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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My experience on this supports Ken B's. As copper wire heats up,
resistance rises. Check and clean those battery cables at both ends. If
they have been replaced in the past, make sure the gauge is correct. Run
two additional ground cables; One from the neg battery terminal to the
frame, one from a starter mounting bolt to ground.
Steve F.
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Jeff Marten <jtmarten@msn.com> wrote:
> I think the PO has the timing set too far advanced. When she's warm she's
> a bear to start.
>
> How do you see the timing marks? What's the best method?
>
> The dizzy will not rotate, it is completely stuck. Please tell me the 403
> has a standard GM-type fiber gasket, not a Ford-type o-ring seal. I've
> soaked it with PB Blaster, and tried a crescent wrench, then hammering a
> crescent wrench on the shaft. Still not moved a hair.
> The PO of my jetboat had an automotive dizzy installed in the 429 (huge
> no-no). Same deal, wouldn't budge. I had to cinch it to my garage rafters
> with a 5k ratchet strap in order to pull it to replace it with a marine
> dizzy. I could have hooked up my bass rig to the strap and played a bit.
> Even with the force on it, I still had to beat it with a hammer to get it
> to slowly slide out. The vac advance unit was shredded from all the
> hammering on it. I'm hoping for no repeat performance here.
>
> Oh, and yes, I did loosen the hold down clamp. LOL
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff Marten
> Colorado Springs, Co
> 1978 Royale
>
>
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> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225425 is a reply to message #225422] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 10:35 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Mine (HEI) has two, one larger just under the top housing, and a smaller one about mid-way down the shaft housing. I tried the crescent wrench on the larger with no luck. Will clean up the dizzy/block surface with a small wire brush, and soak with carb cleaner, penetrating oil, or diesel/atf to try to break it free.
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:27:56 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
>
> Jeff,
>
> You may have already tried what I'm about to suggest below.
>
> I gave the dizzy shaft housing from the burned 455 I have to Dick at Branson. I vaguely remembered that there was a square "lump" in
> the shaft housing between the bottom of the cap mounting area and where the housing goes into the engine.
>
> I just lifted the engine hatch and looked at the dizzy shaft housing and verified I was correct. It might be possible to put a
> wrench on that "lump" and turn the housing.
>
> It seems to me that's what it's there for, why else put it there?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Marten
>
> Thanks Jim
> I'd love to pull it out! That'd mean it would rotate so I could adjust the timing. IF I can get it to rotate without breaking the
> dizzy shaft housing, I'll likely pull it just to clean and grease the dist bore.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225427 is a reply to message #225425] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 11:02 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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After you soak it in penentrating oil for awhile try the cresent wrench again but use a small hammer to try to turn it back and forth. Then soak it some more. If you can get a little bit of movement then the oil might be able to penetrate better.
Emery Stora
On Oct 13, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Jeff Marten wrote:
> Mine (HEI) has two, one larger just under the top housing, and a smaller one about mid-way down the shaft housing. I tried the crescent wrench on the larger with no luck. Will clean up the dizzy/block surface with a small wire brush, and soak with carb cleaner, penetrating oil, or diesel/atf to try to break it free.
>
>> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:27:56 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
>>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> You may have already tried what I'm about to suggest below.
>>
>> I gave the dizzy shaft housing from the burned 455 I have to Dick at Branson. I vaguely remembered that there was a square "lump" in
>> the shaft housing between the bottom of the cap mounting area and where the housing goes into the engine.
>>
>> I just lifted the engine hatch and looked at the dizzy shaft housing and verified I was correct. It might be possible to put a
>> wrench on that "lump" and turn the housing.
>>
>> It seems to me that's what it's there for, why else put it there?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Marten
>>
>> Thanks Jim
>> I'd love to pull it out! That'd mean it would rotate so I could adjust the timing. IF I can get it to rotate without breaking the
>> dizzy shaft housing, I'll likely pull it just to clean and grease the dist bore.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225432 is a reply to message #225427] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 11:28 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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If you are running a GM HEI distributor, there is a very strong likelihood
that your mechanical advance weights, springs, and rotor assembly are
rusted to the point of immobility. A quick test of this is to remove the
cap and coil assy., then grasp the rotor with thumb and forefinger and
attempt to turn it GENTLY counterclockwise when viewed from the top. It
should turn freely to the length of the advance travel, and when released,
should return to where you started. If it is at ALL DIFFICULT to turn, or
does not return home, the advance mechanism needs attention. I personally
use Tri-Flow. It drys leaving no sticky residue to attract the iron oxide
dust present in any distributor. If the advance is totally locked up, the
distributor needs to come out of the engine, the rolled pin through the
gear driven out, the shaft assembly pulled out and attended to. If there is
wear in the bushings and/or shaft, or excessive end play, send the whole
distributor to Dick Paterson, have him custom rebuild and tailor the
advance curve to fit the all up weight and gearing of your coach. When you
get it back, set the base timing where Dick tells you to. You will think
that you are driving a new coach.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Oct 13, 2013 9:02 AM, "Emery Stora" <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> After you soak it in penentrating oil for awhile try the cresent wrench
> again but use a small hammer to try to turn it back and forth. Then soak
> it some more. If you can get a little bit of movement then the oil might
> be able to penetrate better.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Oct 13, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Jeff Marten wrote:
>
> > Mine (HEI) has two, one larger just under the top housing, and a smaller
> one about mid-way down the shaft housing. I tried the crescent wrench on
> the larger with no luck. Will clean up the dizzy/block surface with a
> small wire brush, and soak with carb cleaner, penetrating oil, or
> diesel/atf to try to break it free.
> >
> >> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> >> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:27:56 -0500
> >> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
> >>
> >> Jeff,
> >>
> >> You may have already tried what I'm about to suggest below.
> >>
> >> I gave the dizzy shaft housing from the burned 455 I have to Dick at
> Branson. I vaguely remembered that there was a square "lump" in
> >> the shaft housing between the bottom of the cap mounting area and where
> the housing goes into the engine.
> >>
> >> I just lifted the engine hatch and looked at the dizzy shaft housing
> and verified I was correct. It might be possible to put a
> >> wrench on that "lump" and turn the housing.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that's what it's there for, why else put it there?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Rob M.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jeff Marten
> >>
> >> Thanks Jim
> >> I'd love to pull it out! That'd mean it would rotate so I could adjust
> the timing. IF I can get it to rotate without breaking the
> >> dizzy shaft housing, I'll likely pull it just to clean and grease the
> dist bore.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing [message #225461 is a reply to message #225432] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 14:07 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Advance plate was very sticky. Once advanced (with some effort), it slowly returned, but not all the way. I sprayed it down with carb cleaner and it moves freely now. I think it'll require additional cleaning because it starts much easier now warm, but did have a labored crank a few times. I'm betting it'll run much better now as well.
Will the plate need to be lubricated after cleaning it? What is the best lubricant, a dry film lube? 3-n-1 oil?
I'll still work on freeing up the dist this week too
Thanks for all the responses!!!
> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 09:28:21 -0700
> From: jamesh1296@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
>
> If you are running a GM HEI distributor, there is a very strong likelihood
> that your mechanical advance weights, springs, and rotor assembly are
> rusted to the point of immobility. A quick test of this is to remove the
> cap and coil assy., then grasp the rotor with thumb and forefinger and
> attempt to turn it GENTLY counterclockwise when viewed from the top. It
> should turn freely to the length of the advance travel, and when released,
> should return to where you started. If it is at ALL DIFFICULT to turn, or
> does not return home, the advance mechanism needs attention. I personally
> use Tri-Flow. It drys leaving no sticky residue to attract the iron oxide
> dust present in any distributor. If the advance is totally locked up, the
> distributor needs to come out of the engine, the rolled pin through the
> gear driven out, the shaft assembly pulled out and attended to. If there is
> wear in the bushings and/or shaft, or excessive end play, send the whole
> distributor to Dick Paterson, have him custom rebuild and tailor the
> advance curve to fit the all up weight and gearing of your coach. When you
> get it back, set the base timing where Dick tells you to. You will think
> that you are driving a new coach.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 Gmc Royale 403
> On Oct 13, 2013 9:02 AM, "Emery Stora" <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > After you soak it in penentrating oil for awhile try the cresent wrench
> > again but use a small hammer to try to turn it back and forth. Then soak
> > it some more. If you can get a little bit of movement then the oil might
> > be able to penetrate better.
> >
> > Emery Stora
> >
> > On Oct 13, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Jeff Marten wrote:
> >
> > > Mine (HEI) has two, one larger just under the top housing, and a smaller
> > one about mid-way down the shaft housing. I tried the crescent wrench on
> > the larger with no luck. Will clean up the dizzy/block surface with a
> > small wire brush, and soak with carb cleaner, penetrating oil, or
> > diesel/atf to try to break it free.
> > >
> > >> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> > >> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > >> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:27:56 -0500
> > >> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Distributor/Timing
> > >>
> > >> Jeff,
> > >>
> > >> You may have already tried what I'm about to suggest below.
> > >>
> > >> I gave the dizzy shaft housing from the burned 455 I have to Dick at
> > Branson. I vaguely remembered that there was a square "lump" in
> > >> the shaft housing between the bottom of the cap mounting area and where
> > the housing goes into the engine.
> > >>
> > >> I just lifted the engine hatch and looked at the dizzy shaft housing
> > and verified I was correct. It might be possible to put a
> > >> wrench on that "lump" and turn the housing.
> > >>
> > >> It seems to me that's what it's there for, why else put it there?
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Rob M.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Jeff Marten
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Jim
> > >> I'd love to pull it out! That'd mean it would rotate so I could adjust
> > the timing. IF I can get it to rotate without breaking the
> > >> dizzy shaft housing, I'll likely pull it just to clean and grease the
> > dist bore.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> GMCnet mailing list
> > >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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