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Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222165]

Thu, 12 September 2013 18:42

Otterwan

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Onan is not putting out AC. Went to replace the rectifier and it already had the newer style BUT PO had drilled out the holder and as soon as I removed the bolt 3 wires fell off. So the only one I know for sure (assuming it was correct in the first place) is that the terminal to the left of + had the black wire on it. Is there a simple way to tell where the other three go?

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222168 is a reply to message #222165]

Thu, 12 September 2013 18:54

A Hamilto

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Otterwan wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 18:42

Onan is not putting out AC. Went to replace the rectifier and it already had the newer style BUT PO had drilled out the holder and as soon as I removed the bolt 3 wires fell off. So the only one I know for sure (assuming it was correct in the first place) is that the terminal to the left of + had the black wire on it. Is there a simple way to tell where the other three go?

Colors are bogus in the picture in the link, but helps correlate the wires to the schematic:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/onan-the-barbarian/p50838-onan-6kw-bell-assembly-wiring-illustration-and-schematic.html

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/10/medium/Onan_6kW_End_Bell_Wiring.jpg

Let us know if it helps. And let me know what the actual colors are (if there is more than one) and I will update the picture.

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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222172 is a reply to message #222165]

Thu, 12 September 2013 19:02

Otterwan

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One wire is black the other three are white. Two go into plastic sleeves with spade connectors inside. The third goes who knows where. The circuit breaker was bypassed by the OP as one terminal is broken off. Both wires are currently on the remaining terminal.

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222176 is a reply to message #222172]

Thu, 12 September 2013 19:13

A Hamilto

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Otterwan wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 19:02

One wire is black the other three are white. Two go into plastic sleeves with spade connectors inside. The third goes who knows where. The circuit breaker was bypassed by the OP as one terminal is broken off. Both wires are currently on the remaining terminal.

One "AC" from the bridge rectifier is X1 (goes to the compounding reactor). The "-" (minus) goes to F2 (Field 2). The "+" (plus) goes to F1 (Field 1) and the other "AC" goes to one of the brushes on the armature. I don't think it matters which "AC" goes to which, electrically. But the F1 and F2 look like they determine the current direction in F1 and F2 (current into F1 and out F2). Only one lead goes from the bridge rectifier to the brushes, and only one goes to the reactor. That leaves you a 50/50 chance of getting the F1 and F2 where they were originally.

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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222178 is a reply to message #222172]

Thu, 12 September 2013 19:24

Matt Colie

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Otterwan wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 20:02

One wire is black the other three are white. Two go into plastic sleeves with spade connectors inside. The third goes who knows where. The circuit breaker was bypassed by the OP as one terminal is broken off. Both wires are currently on the remaining terminal.

Otter,

There are two pairs of wires in two sets.

If you attack it with an ohmmeter, you should be able to find one pair of wires for each set.

One set is the AC. On of that set will ring to the main breaker. That set goes on the AC terminals (this maybe marked with sinusoid) and sometimes only one is marked. Those two terminals will be on opposite corners. Which is who makes no matter.

The other set go on the +/- terminals. Even if you get these backwards, it really won't matter but the power may be a little slow coming up the first time. (If it is real slow, then swap those two.

These are very simple machines. There ain't no rocket surgery here. They really are as simple as the posted diagrams.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222179 is a reply to message #222172]

Thu, 12 September 2013 19:25

A Hamilto

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Otterwan wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 19:02

One wire is black the other three are white. Two go into plastic sleeves with spade connectors inside. The third goes who knows where. The circuit breaker was bypassed by the OP as one terminal is broken off. Both wires are currently on the remaining terminal.

Staring at the diagram and correlating your description, I believe you said the black wire is one of the "AC" connectors. The white one that goes "who knows where" must be the other "AC". The spade connectors are probably F1 and F2, but I don't know how to tell which is which (or if it even matters?). But one goes to minus and one goes to plus.

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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222182 is a reply to message #222165]

Thu, 12 September 2013 19:43

Otterwan

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I'll pull the cover off tomorrow and see what I can figure out. You have all given me good input.

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222191 is a reply to message #222179]

Thu, 12 September 2013 20:30

Jim Miller

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On Sep 12, 2013, at 8:25 PM, A. wrote:

> The white one that goes "who knows where" must be the other "AC". The spade connectors are probably F1 and F2, but I don't know how to tell which is which (or if it even matters?).

The leads that go into the spade connector sleeves are the field windings - both are tan in color in every Onan I've seen - and how you connect them to the bridge absolutely DOES matter. If they are connected in reverse then the initial excitation will instantly cancel the remanent magnetic field in the assembly and you will get -0- output. You should read around 38 ohms between F1 and F2 using the Rx1 scale on a VOM. If you read anything significantly different than 38 ohms then you likely have a bad field.

The AC connections to the bridge can be in either orientation.

--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222196 is a reply to message #222191]

Thu, 12 September 2013 20:51

Otterwan

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Jim Miller wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 18:30

The leads that go into the spade connector sleeves are the field windings - both are tan in color in every Onan I've seen - and how you connect them to the bridge absolutely DOES matter.

So how do you tell which goes where? They work one way and not the other?

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222198 is a reply to message #222196]

Thu, 12 September 2013 20:57

Jim Miller

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On Sep 12, 2013, at 9:51 PM, David Orders wrote:

> So how do you tell which goes where? They work one way and not the other?

Did you see the schematic referenced earlier in this thread? As the machine was originally built: F1 goes to bridge +, F2 goes to bridge -

Yes, they will work one way but not the other.

While you have the bridge disconnected it would be an ideal time to check the resistance between F1 and F2 and see if you read ~38 ohms.

--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222199 is a reply to message #222196]

Thu, 12 September 2013 21:14

A Hamilto

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Otterwan wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 20:51

Jim Miller wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 18:30

The leads that go into the spade connector sleeves are the field windings - both are tan in color in every Onan I've seen - and how you connect them to the bridge absolutely DOES matter.

So how do you tell which goes where? They work one way and not the other?

Your best hope is that the wires from the F1 and F2 positions are sort of oriented like they were when everything fell apart. The drawing shows the plus at the top of the bridge rectifier connector. The minus is on the bottom of the connector. If the wires are sort of in place, that would help.

Otherwise, it would appear you need to hook them up and run the Onan and see if you got it right. If no AC power, shut it down and switch the plus and minus and try again.

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222202 is a reply to message #222199]

Thu, 12 September 2013 21:26

Mr ERFisher

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look here for pictures
http://gmcmotorhome.info/generator.html#bridge

gene

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 7:14 PM, A. <markbb1@netzero.com> wrote:

>
>
> Otterwan wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 20:51
> > Jim Miller wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 18:30
> > > The leads that go into the spade connector sleeves are the field
> windings - both are tan in color in every Onan I've seen - and how you
> connect them to the bridge absolutely DOES matter.
> >
> >
> > So how do you tell which goes where? They work one way and not the other?
> Your best hope is that the wires from the F1 and F2 positions are sort of
> oriented like they were when everything fell apart. The drawing shows the
> plus at the top of the bridge rectifier connector. The minus is on the
> bottom of the connector. If the wires are sort of in place, that would
> help.
>
> Otherwise, it would appear you need to hook them up and run the Onan and
> see if you got it right. If no AC power, shut it down and switch the plus
> and minus and try again.
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
�Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222204 is a reply to message #222165]

Thu, 12 September 2013 21:44

JohnL455

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Give the faston connectors s slight squeeze so they grip the diode legs. Don 't squeeze near the tips or you won't get them started. The rest if the info seams right from what I can remember -- ACs are on opposite diagonals and check polarity on remaining 2 leads.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222205 is a reply to message #222199]

Thu, 12 September 2013 21:45

Jim Miller

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On Sep 12, 2013, at 10:14 PM, A. wrote:

> Your best hope is that the wires from the F1 and F2 positions are sort of oriented like they were when everything fell apart.

I do not understand the reason for speculating. Why not just look at the labels on the wires? "F1" and "F2" is printed on the wire insulation right next to the spade connector.

--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222207 is a reply to message #222205]

Thu, 12 September 2013 21:52

A Hamilto

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Jim Miller wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 21:45

On Sep 12, 2013, at 10:14 PM, A. wrote:

> Your best hope is that the wires from the F1 and F2 positions are sort of oriented like they were when everything fell apart.

I do not understand the reason for speculating. Why not just look at the labels on the wires? "F1" and "F2" is printed on the wire insulation right next to the spade connector.

--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

Sweet! David is home free.

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222210 is a reply to message #222205]

Thu, 12 September 2013 22:08

Otterwan

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Jim Miller wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 19:45

I do not understand the reason for speculating. Why not just look at the labels on the wires? "F1" and "F2" is printed on the wire insulation right next to the spade connector.

--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

Sweet! I sure hope that's true. I'll check tomorrow and let you know.

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222716 is a reply to message #222210]

Mon, 16 September 2013 15:17

Otterwan

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With rectifier installed correctly, still no AC. I checked the resistance between F1 and F2 and it is right around 3M ohms (should be 37 to 39). I removed the plastic sleeves and checked at the wires comes right off the field coil. Still 3M ohms. I cut the connectors off, stripped to bare shiny wire. Still 3M ohms. So I guess the field coil is bad.

So I guess that's it. I do have a donor Onan, but I have no idea what sort of shape it is in.

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

[Updated on: Mon, 16 September 2013 15:22]

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222720 is a reply to message #222716]

Mon, 16 September 2013 16:01

Matt Colie

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Otterwan wrote on Mon, 16 September 2013 16:17

With rectifier installed correctly, still no AC. I checked the resistance between F1 and F2 and it is right around 3M ohms (should be 37 to 39). I removed the plastic sleeves and checked at the wires comes right off the field coil. Still 3M ohms. I cut the connectors off, stripped to bare shiny wire. Still 3M ohms. So I guess the field coil is bad.

So I guess that's it. I do have a donor Onan, but I have no idea what sort of shape it is in.

David,

If it runs with or with the jumper in place, it is worth saving. Before you do anything rash, contact Jim Miller (about eight lines up) and see if he is ready to take on rewinding Onan fields. I know he has repaired at least one successfully. He may be ready to take on others. Or, he could give you specific instructions.

There may be a need for NH parts, but a good one is well worth keeping.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222721 is a reply to message #222716]

Mon, 16 September 2013 16:00

Jim Miller

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On Sep 16, 2013, at 4:17 PM, David Orders wrote:

> With rectifier installed correctly, still no AC. I checked the resistance between F1 and F2 and it is right around 3 ohms (should be 37 to 39). I removed the plastic sleeves and checked at the wires comes right off the field coil. Still 3 ohms. I cut the connectors off, stripped to bare shiny wire. Still 3 ohms. So I guess the field coil is bad.

What meter scale are you checking with? You should be using Rx1. It is very, very unlikely that 3 ohms is the correct reading.

--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan rectifier wiring help [message #222722 is a reply to message #222720]

Mon, 16 September 2013 16:09

Otterwan

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It runs great, doesn't even leak oil! The donor hasn't run in at least 10 years and is still in the coach. Has anyone had any luck swapping coils? General opinion seems to be that they are rather fragile. Even if the donor one is good I wonder would it survive the transplant?

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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