| KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220787] |
Sun, 01 September 2013 18:49  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Someone, I think Emery correctly stated early on that constant pressure could cause leaks. That is true but there is more.
Do NOT NOT NOT, use the screw adjuster to crank down past where you normally hold the brake to hold on whatever slope you are on. To do so put much more than normal pressure on the hydraulics. Ask me how I know this.....
Rob Mueller made one just like V2.0 and was cranking the handle down tight when he noticed the pedal went down suddenly. Didn't think much about it but later he wanted me to drive his coach and see how good the brakes were. As I was leaving my house, I said, "NO BRAKES" as I was standing on the pedal.
Turns out we literally blew one of his braided stainless brake lines out of the fittings AND KILLED the master cylinder.
Rob's brakes have been on the coach for several years but the moral of this story is that you only have to move the pedal the the same point you'd be at if you were holding the brake with your foot. Any more is just excessive pressure and BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN. In Rob's case, a STOMP ON THE BRAKES PANIC STOP could have done the same thing....or not.
The good news is that the local Advance had a new brake line (not braided) and I had a brand new P30 MC. He also had a Hupy bleeder top and we're cobbling up the rest of the pressure bleeder and they should be good to go tomorrow.
DON'T PRESS IT DOWN MORE THAN YOU WOULD WITH YOUR FOOT UNLESS YOU WANT TO TEST YOUR COMPONENTS TO POSSIBLE FAILURE.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220791 is a reply to message #220787] |
Sun, 01 September 2013 19:13  |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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I think this shows why this is inherently not a good solution. The parking brake is mechanical (not hydraulic) for a reason. If your parking brake (or putting the transmission in park) will not hold your coach long enough for you to get out and set wheel chocks, get them fixed. Using something to hold the brake pedal down is (in my opinion) a band-aid, not a solution.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: [GMCnet] KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220793 is a reply to message #220791] |
Sun, 01 September 2013 19:27 |
kelvin
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
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On 9/1/2013 5:13 PM, David Orders wrote:
>
> I think this shows why this is inherently not a good solution. The parking brake is mechanical (not hydraulic) for a reason. If your parking brake (or putting the transmission in park) will not hold your coach long enough for you to get out and set wheel chocks, get them fixed.
If you use your transmission parking pawl to hold you on a steep hill
you quite likely will NOT get your trans out of PARK without breaking
off the pawl. I imagine mine is at least slightly rounded because there
was one instance where I did just that.
As of yet there IS no real solution for a parking brake other than a
hydraulic line lock if you have rear disk brakes.
Kerry and Rob have tested to failure. Thanks for going thru that for
us. ;-)
> Using something to hold the brake pedal down is (in my opinion) a band-aid, not a solution.
That's exactly what it is, David. Quick... come up with something
better for us, please. I'd love to have a cable operated parking brake
would hold me on a "damn steep" hill.
Until then this is an awesome band-aid. If my foot will hold me on that
hill, so will KISS, V1.0
I won't be building Kerry's KISS V2.0, however. :-)
Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220796 is a reply to message #220793] |
Sun, 01 September 2013 19:38 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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I haven't actually tried this, but I would bet with very little effort you could lower a wheel chock out the driver's window on a rope and swing it behind the front wheel while you were standing on the break pedal. For a little more sure placement you could mount one on a stick and place it directly behind the wheel.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220844 is a reply to message #220787] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 08:37 |
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There is a good solution and it is the stainless steel upgraded version of the original. I passed on that upgrade once because I thought it was too expensive. I ended up loosing a rear wheel due to that decision which was way more expensive. And then, being a believer, I did the upgrade to stainless. I love it!
Bill Brown - '77 Buckeye Cruiser
Coshocton OH
carguybill@sbcglobal.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220852 is a reply to message #220848] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 09:54 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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In 2010 when we were at a GMCWS Rally in Auburn, Ca., Chuck Algur was there
with his coach as well. He had just finished a prototype parking brake that
mounted on the outside plate of the reaction arm. It consisted of two wedge
shaped high durometer rubber blocks located in between the bogies so that
when they were pulled closer together they would wedge themselves into the
tires. The mechanism to apply them looked kind of like a scissors jack that
had a long, right hand/left hand threaded rod that was powered by a 12 volt
reversible direction motor. The ends of the threaded rod went through metal
plates that were attached to the previously mentioned rubber blocks.
Controlled by a dash switch, when it was applied the blocks moved
vertically, one towards the ground, and the other the opposite direction.
More difficult to describe than it really was. I don't know if that system
is still in place on the coach or not, but Dave DeGraffenreid now owns the
coach. Perhaps he can let us know. It would block both tires very
effectively. Much better than rusty cables do for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:39 AM, George Zhookoff <George.Zhookoff@haskell.com
> wrote:
>
>
> Kelvin Dietz wrote "As of yet there IS no real solution for a parking
> brake other than a
> hydraulic line lock if you have rear disk brakes.
> I'd love to have a cable operated parking brake
> would hold me on a "damn steep" hill."
>
> I have installed on my 78 EL II the Albert Branscombe parking brake system
> with the Chuck A's Brake Reaction Arm System, rear disk brakes. Not only
> can I stop so all loose stuff flys forward hugging the dash, I can set the
> parking brake to hold on the hill while I clean up the mess.
>
> George "with REAL brakes" Zhookoff
> 78b EL II
> Atlanta
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220885 is a reply to message #220787] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 13:36 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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New information after talking at length while we were repairing his brakes.
When Rob had the failure, he had NOT YET ENGAGED THE KISS Emergency Parking Brake. He was holding the pedal down very hard and felt it sink before the adjuster even got in contact with the brake pedal arm.
In other words, Rob had a brake system failure during a panic stop that just happened to be in my driveway. If he had been on the highway at speed and stomped on the brakes as hard, similar failures would have occurred with potentially much worse results.
All that said, I'm confident that with the KISS V2.0 screw adjuster, it would be possible to apply much more pressure than the system either needs or is used to causing failure of components.
While V2.0 is a bit more elegant it comes with some potential risks of over pressuring things. I'd be hard to do that with V1.0 (or a stick braced to the seat base...)
Again, I have never recommended this being used as a full time parking brake but rather as a stopgap measure so you can get out and secure the coach with chocks/rocks/whatever.
Again, use it or not...up to you. They are not for sale.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Mon, 02 September 2013 13:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220888 is a reply to message #220787] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 13:41 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Sun, 01 September 2013 16:49 |
Rob Mueller made one just like V2.0 and was cranking the handle down tight when he noticed the pedal went down suddenly.
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That would seem to conflict with the original post.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220891 is a reply to message #220888] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 14:16 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| Otterwan wrote on Mon, 02 September 2013 13:41 |
That would seem to conflict with the original post.
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Yes it does because it is new information since the original warning post. Rob and I had not really discussed what was going on when the failure occured. I ASSUMED he had contacted the brake pedal arm and was cranking down the screw. I made the original post in some haste because I didn't want anyone screwing something up. I had not thought about the possibility that someone would REALLY crank down on the adjuster. Regardless, I'm now convinced that with the adjuster screw it would be possible to over-tighten the brake pedal. All tools have some danger associated with them and it's prudent to understand all the bad things that can happen.
Rob is traveling up to Chuck Boyd's now. I expect he'll chime in when he has internet access.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: KISS emergency parking brake. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING [message #220999 is a reply to message #220787] |
Tue, 03 September 2013 09:05 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Cross post from the other thread for future forum readers:
| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 02 September 2013 23:19 |
G'day,
Point of clarification!
I did NOT blow the braided stainless steel line off the passenger side middle Caddy disk brake by screwing down the knob on Kerry's
tool; I did it by applying as much pressure as I could on the brake pedal with the engine running. I figgered I had to really stomp
on them to make sure the KISS parking brake would work correctly.
I reckon the hose failure was a good thing, had it failed in a panic stop it could have caused a disaster as I lost my brakes
completely.
However, that didn't make any sense as the fronts still should have worked. Since they didn't we R&R'd the master cylinder and took
it apart. When we removed the circlip that holds the piston in the piston wouldn't come out. Kerry cut off the protrusion that
contained the circlip as we thought the piston was getting stuck on the groove. After that was removed it still wouldn't come out.
We then removed the tank and discovered that both the check valves in the cast iron section were not installed correctly, they were
cocked. When we removed the check valve closest to the booster the rear piston came out, when we removed the check valve furthest
from the booster the front piston came out. Somehow they had shifted and were keeping the pistons from moving correctly.
This was interesting to me as John Sharpe had two P-3 master cylinders in Houston with plastic tanks that had failed and when we
disassembled them we found the same problem the check valves had shifted which kept the piston from moving properly.
Regards,
Rob M.
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