| Idler and Relay centering [message #220322] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 11:29  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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I've freed up both tie rod adjusters and it looks like I need to adjust both tie rods to bring arms slightly to drivers side. I have Lenzi adj drag link so I can then recenter box/ wheel. I've set a 2' wooden 1" square stock over the idler to act as an extended pointer arm to eye it up. Is this the best way or is there an actual measurement to take for straight? (I have the Jerry Work kit so I plan to do the front alignment but up till now one adjuster was rusted so to get zero tow I could only turn one side which slightly put the arms off center.) I plan to center this, then try caster/camber and then reset toe, but want to start with arms centered. My cams are on center so Dave said I have room to dial in some caster. My brain always cramps thinking which way to turn tie rod adjusters. Is there a trick to remember?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idler and Relay centering [message #220326 is a reply to message #220322] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 11:49  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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John, longer tie rods toe's out. Shorter, toe in. As a place to start, turn
the steering wheel full left, and put a piece of colored masking tape at
the 12:00 position on the rim of the steering wheel. Turn the steering
wheel to the right while counting the turns. Should be around 4 and 1/2
turns give or take. Turn the steering wheel back 1/2 of what you counted.
That should be very close to centered on the steering box. If both front
wheels are not straight ahead, and you do have an adjustable drag link,
lengthen or shorten that until both front wheels are straight ahead. If the
cross bar in your steering wheel is not horizontal, pull the steering wheel
off the splined shaft and center it up. Then you are prepared to start with
your alignment. I usually do toe adjustments first, then camber, then
caster. Be absolutely certain that the coach is at ride height before you
start, and after you finish. If you don't correct the ride height, don't
bother with alignment. JWID
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 9:29 AM, John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've freed up both tie rod adjusters and it looks like I need to adjust
> both tie rods to bring arms slightly to drivers side. I have Lenzi adj drag
> link so I can then recenter box/ wheel. I've set a 2' wooden 1" square
> stock over the idler to act as an extended pointer arm to eye it up. Is
> this the best way or is there an actual measurement to take for straight?
> (I have the Jerry Work kit so I plan to do the front alignment but up till
> now one adjuster was rusted so to get zero tow I could only turn one side
> which slightly put the arms off center.) I plan to center this, then try
> caster/camber and then reset toe, but want to start with arms centered. My
> cams are on center so Dave said I have room to dial in some caster. My
> brain always cramps thinking which way to turn tie rod adjusters. Is there
> a trick to remember?
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idler and Relay centering [message #220335 is a reply to message #220330] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:16 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Hmmm? I'll have to confirm what I said. Only been doing it for a couple of
decades. I know that the bottom of the column is clocked with a wide spline
where it attaches to the steering box. Same for the pitman arm. Could be
wrong. Hate to put any more false info over the gmc net.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Aug 29, 2013 10:09 AM, "Emery Stora" <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
> > . If the
> > cross bar in your steering wheel is not horizontal, pull the steering
> wheel
> > off the splined shaft and center it up.
>
> James -- I do not think it is possible to do that. If I recall, the
> steering wheel shaft has a wider spline in one place that prevents the
> steering wheel from fitting in any other position.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220340 is a reply to message #220322] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:47 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Emery I think the Pitman is that way as you have stated before, but the wheel to column on GM is movable even though the scribe should be at 12 and match the wheel scribe, otherwise the canceling cam/ box is not on center. But that is not what I am asking. Just wondering how to know the idler and relay are straight by the tie adjustment to get those straight. My rear is 3/4 high by auto so I let it adjust then blow off 2 seconds and it's right after recheck. Front height is correct middle of slot. I need to get rear adjustment links as I don't think I'll get it closer without.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idler and Relay centering [message #220344 is a reply to message #220335] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 13:06 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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James
You are correct in that the splines are all the same. I just checked a spare wheel that I had in the shop. I guess I was thinking of the wheel on my Jeep CJ7 which is keyed.
I have not had the wheel off the GMC for many years. The last time was at Jim Bounds shop when his worker did a front end wheel alignment and when I went to pick up the GMC the steering wheel was about 20 degrees off center.
He said he would just pull the wheel and center it. When he pulled the wheel he found that he could not rotate it. I was thinking it was the splines but now I believe that it was because of either the shaft for the horn or else the turn signal cam.
He had to go back down under and move the two tie rod ends to get the wheel centered.
I later installed an adjustable link for the pitman arm.
Emery Stora
On Aug 29, 2013, at 11:16 AM, James Hupy wrote:
> Hmmm? I'll have to confirm what I said. Only been doing it for a couple of
> decades. I know that the bottom of the column is clocked with a wide spline
> where it attaches to the steering box. Same for the pitman arm. Could be
> wrong. Hate to put any more false info over the gmc net.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 Gmc Royale 403
> On Aug 29, 2013 10:09 AM, "Emery Stora" <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>>
>>> . If the
>>> cross bar in your steering wheel is not horizontal, pull the steering
>> wheel
>>> off the splined shaft and center it up.
>>
>> James -- I do not think it is possible to do that. If I recall, the
>> steering wheel shaft has a wider spline in one place that prevents the
>> steering wheel from fitting in any other position.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Frederick, CO
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idler and Relay centering [message #220347 is a reply to message #220330] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 13:23 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Hi Emory, The only wide spline on the steering shaft is where the Lock spring mounts on the shaft and will only go one way. The steering wheel will mount in any spline but the horn button will not line up to the hole unless it is within ~3 splines. John R`s coach had the steering wheel 180* off to get it straight. The plastic receptical for the horn button was broke off and a wire soldered in to go to the horn button. This made the steering box 1/2 turn off center so they added an adjustable link to get the wheels straight. Complaint was play in steering column and would steer good one way, not so good the other way and would not stay in the road. After I repaired the steering column and put the steering wheel back in time I unhooked the adjustable arm and centered the box (steering wheel was now straight) and adjusted the arm to hook back up. Best I could do in the field at Bean Station.
I do not have near the experience as many here. I have found to get a coach to drive comfortably the weight balance and ride height must be within spec to start with. The idler arm and relay lever needs to be 90* from frame member with wheels straight with alignment to specs. Then set the box on center and hook up the drag link and replace with adjustable if necessary. Then pull the horn button and the nut holding the steering wheel and see if the steering shaft and steering wheel alignment marks line up. If not do what you have to to get the blue shaft in time. There are 6 positions that the top cv can go X 4 ways the blue shaft can go X the 2 ways the lower u-joint can go so bout 48 ways it can be out of time. To tell if the knuckle joint in the column is in time the top mark will be at 12 a clock and the clamp bolt on the lower end of the shaft will be on the pass side.
Yes I know that if everstuff is done correctly back to the box that the steering shaft and blue shaft timing may not seem like much (except for the turn signal cancelling cam) as you can rig the steering wheel to be straight anywhere, but in my opinion its kinda like where #1 is on the dist. It will work anywhere, but it is just not right.
| emerystora wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 13:07 |
On Aug 29, 2013, at 10:49 AM, James Hupy wrote:
> . If the
> cross bar in your steering wheel is not horizontal, pull the steering wheel
> off the splined shaft and center it up.
James -- I do not think it is possible to do that. If I recall, the steering wheel shaft has a wider spline in one place that prevents the steering wheel from fitting in any other position.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220349 is a reply to message #220340] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 13:45 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Sir, The way I do it. Park the coach with wheels straight forward. Do not jack it up. Unhook the drag link and one end of both tie rods. Put the idler arm and relay lever as close to 90* as possible with a square then turn the tie rods till they will drop fit, same on the drag link after box is centered. If you are starting from scratch or wheels have been disturbed set the toe as close as possible with wheels on the ground before hooking up tie rods.
| JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 13:47 |
Emery I think the Pitman is that way as you have stated before, but the wheel to column on GM is movable even though the scribe should be at 12 and match the wheel scribe, otherwise the canceling cam/ box is not on center. But that is not what I am asking. Just wondering how to know the idler and relay are straight by the tie adjustment to get those straight. My rear is 3/4 high by auto so I let it adjust then blow off 2 seconds and it's right after recheck. Front height is correct middle of slot. I need to get rear adjustment links as I don't think I'll get it closer without.
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220350 is a reply to message #220349] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 13:46 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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PS: ride height is checked at top of race track holes not the middle.
| C Boyd wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 14:45 |
Sir, The way I do it. Park the coach with wheels straight forward. Do not jack it up. Unhook the drag link and one end of both tie rods. Put the idler arm and relay lever as close to 90* as possible with a square then turn the tie rods till they will drop fit, same on the drag link after box is centered. If you are starting from scratch or wheels have been disturbed set the toe as close as possible with wheels on the ground before hooking up tie rods.
| JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 13:47 |
Emery I think the Pitman is that way as you have stated before, but the wheel to column on GM is movable even though the scribe should be at 12 and match the wheel scribe, otherwise the canceling cam/ box is not on center. But that is not what I am asking. Just wondering how to know the idler and relay are straight by the tie adjustment to get those straight. My rear is 3/4 high by auto so I let it adjust then blow off 2 seconds and it's right after recheck. Front height is correct middle of slot. I need to get rear adjustment links as I don't think I'll get it closer without.
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220360 is a reply to message #220350] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 15:13 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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John, sure seems like you are going about this the right way to get your coach right. While you are at it... X7625 1976 maintenance manual supplement section 3a-2 explains how to check the intermediate rod (connects the tie rods to the relay lever and idler arm) paralleism with the front axle. Meaning it goes straight across instead of downhill or uphill when steering. Need to be on a level surface. Out of ~ 20 I have checked I have had to shim 3. Ride height affects this a lot so it must be correct and tire inflation same.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220379 is a reply to message #220322] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 17:39 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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At this point I got the idler and relay looking to be straight front to back and the set the toe to dead zero with the Work fixtures. Laser on the wall makes it easy to see which way turning the adjusters is going. I then got the wheel/ box back on center was about 30 deg off ( I believe I have in the past already sorted all the multiple wrongs on the intermediate shaft) with the drag link so the box input flat should be on center. I broke loose all 4 upper CA cam nuts. Have to stop here to get more SAE tools and jack from old house. Does the shock have to come off to get to the front cam to turn it? Plan is to get as much caster as possible without camber going negative. Then reset toe. Once I get it done and road tested happy, i'll then swap in the Jim K variable box. Only want to change one variable at a time. As far as center link height since I have a Lenzi relay and no binding, not going there now. It does appear level to the frame as well.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220397 is a reply to message #220379] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 19:27 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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John, I have not had to remove the shock to set cams. I would spray some lube stuff on the cams first, replacement bolts and cams are soft junk with course threads. Torque is 90lb. I usually start with the front 1/2 way and the rear all the way in then play with the front to try to balance. Strange but I can usually get about 1 more degree of caster on the driver side than the pass side. Don`t know if this is set in to compensate for the road crown or just a coincidence??? I also don`t know if it is best to leave it or back it up to make both sides the same? I have mine maxed on both sides with camber at 0 but have set others even.
30* off is a good find and should be worth your efforts. Made Matt Collie happy.
The tolerance on the parallelism is .125 and is adjusted by adding up to 2 washers under the idler arm. It would be hard to see the difference. The measurements insure the distance from the steering intermediate rod to the centerline of the lower control arms is the same on both sides. If it isn`t with one side low the toe can be set correctly but will be off when you turn the wheels due to the caster (off center ball joints). I have actually only seen 2 (in my case 10%) that this was out of tolerance.
| JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 18:39 |
At this point I got the idler and relay looking to be straight front to back and the set the toe to dead zero with the Work fixtures. Laser on the wall makes it easy to see which way turning the adjusters is going. I then got the wheel/ box back on center was about 30 deg off ( I believe I have in the past already sorted all the multiple wrongs on the intermediate shaft) with the drag link so the box input flat should be on center. I broke loose all 4 upper CA cam nuts. Have to stop here to get more SAE tools and jack from old house. Does the shock have to come off to get to the front cam to turn it? Plan is to get as much caster as possible without camber going negative. Then reset toe. Once I get it done and road tested happy, i'll then swap in the Jim K variable box. Only want to change one variable at a time. As far as center link height since I have a Lenzi relay and no binding, not going there now. It does appear level to the frame as well.
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220401 is a reply to message #220322] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 19:38 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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The box was centered but I made it 30 off by centering the relay/ idler. So not expecting improvement there. But now it's back on centre. I 'll start with your cam suggestions. By not having the idler relay straight I assume the same thing would happen as wrong height where your toe is correct on center but wrong inner:outer circles as you turn.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Idler and Relay centering [message #220405 is a reply to message #220401] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 20:02 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Leaving the steering box on center as it was and moving the tie rods and drag link to center the intermediate shaft and putting the relay lever and idler arm at 90* should make a big difference in the coach steering straight. I am not sure what difference in setting the parallel would make on the driving as all I have set has been in conjunction with other stuff also. The only one would be John Sharpe I think. All we did to his coach was adjust his idler with one washer. I never asked him if he could tell a difference in drivability. Maybe he will chime in. Book says it will cause tire wear.
| JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 20:38 |
The box was centered but I made it 30 off by centering the relay/ idler. So not expecting improvement there. But now it's back on centre. I 'll start with your cam suggestions. By not having the idler relay straight I assume the same thing would happen as wrong height where your toe is correct on center but wrong inner:outer circles as you turn.
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idler and Relay centering [message #220455 is a reply to message #220405] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 00:49 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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The idler and relay arms should be as close to parallel as possible in regards to how they hold the center link in relation to the frame xmember. If out of level you will have bump steer. Not sure if that was your reference to level or not Charles.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
On Aug 29, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Charles Boyd <covered-wagon@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Leaving the steering box on center as it was and moving the tie rods and drag link to center the intermediate shaft and putting the relay lever and idler arm at 90* should make a big difference in the coach steering straight. I am not sure what difference in setting the parallel would make on the driving as all I have set has been in conjunction with other stuff also. The only one would be John Sharpe I think. All we did to his coach was adjust his idler with one washer. I never asked him if he could tell a difference in drivability. Maybe he will chime in. Book says it will cause tire wear.
>
>
> JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 20:38
>> The box was centered but I made it 30 off by centering the relay/ idler. So not expecting improvement there. But now it's back on centre. I 'll start with your cam suggestions. By not having the idler relay straight I assume the same thing would happen as wrong height where your toe is correct on center but wrong inner:outer circles as you turn.
>
>
> --
> C. Boyd
> 76 Crestmont
> East Tennessee
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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