Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Lithium ion house batteries (Here's everything you could want to know)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220251 is a reply to message #220246] |
Wed, 28 August 2013 17:59   |
Mike Teets
Messages: 299
Registered: January 2004
Location: Dublin, OH
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Look at his cost page and assumptions before comparing to GMC usage... He
is full timing in a bus. He and his partner are technology consultants and
working out of their rig. Their power requirements were 800 aH of capacity
and 1000's of cycles including running their air on the inverter. He is
very careful to state that his goal was to test the technology rather than
have the cheapest solution. Even so, he is able to do this for a total
cost of ownership less than AGM batteries.
It is good for all of us when there are people in the world that will go
where it is not economically advantageous but advance technology.
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> Are you kidding us? Why?
> The cost is probably more that some of the people on this net have paid
> for their GMCs.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 28, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Glenn Giere wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > This is how friends did lithium ion in their bus.
> >
> > Http://www.technomadia.com/lithium
> >
> > Glenn
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
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Mike, GMCing since 2002
77 Palm Beach, 260, 403
Dublin, OH
http://teamteets.com/gmc/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220275 is a reply to message #220262] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 01:25 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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| ljdavick wrote on Wed, 28 August 2013 18:46 |
It looks as if we are at a pivotal time for the auto industry.
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As long as the taxpayer has to ante up significant money ($7,500 per Leaf, IIRC) to make it work, we're not at any pivotal point... the time will come, but we're not there yet. The batteries in the Leaf reportedly cost the manufacturer $18,000... should make for some interesting used car values down the road 5 or 6 years. It also means you have to save a LOT of gas money to save up for a new battery.
To me, the government forcing not-quite-mature technologies on the market probably hurt the development of the real ultimate solution. As long as there are "viable alternatives", even if those alternatives survive only in an artificial, highly subsidized environment, the entrepreneur doesn't have the same motivation to come up with the real solution. That is, an electric car that competes head to head with all other options and wins. It'll happen, but right now it's about politicians picking winners and losers (at our expense, of course).
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220276 is a reply to message #220246] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 01:58 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
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The cost per usable unit of power is quite low, they just have crazy
amounts of battery. I was thinking of 200 amps of battery for 50 usable,
they have 400 usable. I thought my idea was kinda crazy, but I wanted to be
able to run a 50 amp 12v DC air conditioner a bit when solar wasn't quite
up to it (evenings), they wanted hours.
The boost inverter is quite nifty, that is worth while for almost anyone.
Interesting, and not for everyone. Neither is having Jim Bounds rebuild
your coach for $100,000, but it is right for some people, and I'm glad
people do it.
Someone has to be the first penguin off the ice floe. I could see doing
this...someday.
On Aug 28, 2013 2:59 PM, "Emery Stora" <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> Are you kidding us? Why?
> The cost is probably more that some of the people on this net have paid
> for their GMCs.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 28, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Glenn Giere wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > This is how friends did lithium ion in their bus.
> >
> > Http://www.technomadia.com/lithium
> >
> > Glenn
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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1973 26' GM outfitted
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220280 is a reply to message #220275] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 03:06 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Mark,
I have to disagree with you. Nattering nay Sayers point to Solyndra as a sweetheart boon doggle but the same loan guarantees went to Tesla. I drove by their headquarters in Palo Alto yesterday and it looked like a beehive of activity. The factory here in Fremont is very busy too. These cars would sell just as we'll without the tax advantage, as they are competing with other luxury cars of high price.
Lets not forget that the automobile is subsidized with taxpayer highways, bridges, etc. we've subsidized many emerging industries
Dang. Sorry for the off topic rant.
I think used Leafs will make for interesting battery banks on many coaches.
Larry Davick
On Aug 28, 2013, at 11:25 PM, Mark <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>
> ljdavick wrote on Wed, 28 August 2013 18:46
>> It looks as if we are at a pivotal time for the auto industry.
>
> As long as the taxpayer has to ante up significant money ($7,500 per Leaf, IIRC) to make it work, we're not at any pivotal point... the time will come, but we're not there yet. The batteries in the Leaf reportedly cost the manufacturer $18,000... should make for some interesting used car values down the road 5 or 6 years. It also means you have to save a LOT of gas money to save up for a new battery.
>
> To me, the government forcing not-quite-mature technologies on the market probably hurt the development of the real ultimate solution. As long as there are "viable alternatives", even if those alternatives survive only in an artificial, highly subsidized environment, the entrepreneur doesn't have the same motivation to come up with the real solution. That is, an electric car that competes head to head with all other options and wins. It'll happen, but right now it's about politicians picking winners and losers (at our expense, of course).
>
>
>
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220312 is a reply to message #220280] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 10:27 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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| ljdavick wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 03:06 |
...Lets not forget that the automobile is subsidized with taxpayer highways, bridges, etc. we've subsidized many emerging industries...
|
Wording has it backwards (automobiles subsidize highways, bridges, etc, through gas taxes), but I see something that hadn't occurred to me before. If electric cars become prevalent, the Gov't will have to find a way to tax the electricity that people use to charge them in order to continue to pay for road and bridge maintenance.
The cost of that electricity will have to go up, reducing the savings that make electric cars so favorable.
Right now, electrics aren't paying their fair share. Freeloaders, so to speak.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220320 is a reply to message #220280] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 11:10 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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| ljdavick wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 01:06 |
Mark,
I have to disagree with you. Nattering nay Sayers point to Solyndra as a sweetheart boon doggle but the same loan guarantees went to Tesla. I drove by their headquarters in Palo Alto yesterday and it looked like a beehive of activity. The factory here in Fremont is very busy too. These cars would sell just as we'll without the tax advantage, as they are competing with other luxury cars of high price.
|
There are three elements to this - first the big gov't loan (which Tesla happily paid back), and then there's the tax breaks buyers of a Tesla or other zero-emission car gets - $7500 federal, plus a host of state and local incentives. Granted, that's not as big a deal with a pricey car like the Tesla, but it's certainly creating a playing field that's anything but level.
Even odder is the fact that Tesla's main source of actual profit is by "trading emissions credit" with other carbon-fueled car makers. Tesla's sales of emissions credit was $85 million in the first quarter of 2013 alone, without which they would have lost money.
But take away that $7500 tax break and the buyers of a Nissan Leaf are into it for about $35,000 - for a VERY modest little car. Compare that to the $15,000 or so you can buy a Honda Fit for, and consider the Fit can go about 180,000 miles on the gas you could buy with the price difference (not to mention the fact that the Leaf is wearing out that hideously expensive battery, which has to be factored in), and there's not any kind of economic case for buying the Leaf. Even factoring in the various gov't kickbacks still leaves the Leaf on the wrong side of the equation, though not quite as badly.
And FWIW, I don't consider myself a naysayer, but a pragmatist. I really do look forward to the day that all-electric vehicles can replace carbon-fueled vehicles for our day-to-day driving. That will happen when the battery technology matures to the point where the cost of the electric car drops dramatically - which is not unlike the Personal Computer market. What we have now is kind of the equivalent of the gov't deciding in the late 70's that they would subsidize Radio Shack TRS-1 computers for everyone who was interested in a computer. That might have kept Apple or Microsoft from ever starting up, and (IMHO) would have slowed down the pace of development, not accelerated it.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220321 is a reply to message #220312] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 11:16 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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| A Hamilto wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 08:27 |
| ljdavick wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 03:06 |
...Lets not forget that the automobile is subsidized with taxpayer highways, bridges, etc. we've subsidized many emerging industries...
|
Wording has it backwards (automobiles subsidize highways, bridges, etc, through gas taxes), but I see something that hadn't occurred to me before. If electric cars become prevalent, the Gov't will have to find a way to tax the electricity that people use to charge them in order to continue to pay for road and bridge maintenance.
The cost of that electricity will have to go up, reducing the savings that make electric cars so favorable.
Right now, electrics aren't paying their fair share. Freeloaders, so to speak.
|
Good point. One of the other stinky wrinkles in the whole electric car concept is that there simply isn't enough electricity production to supply them if a significant percentage of us start driving them. Many of the western states (California chief among them) haven't added electric generation capacity in decades, and are teetering on the brink of brownouts or blackouts in the summer. Add in a few million extra electric cars (which use a HUGE amount of power compared to your "other appliances") and the situation will go from seriously inconvenient to dire.
But I'll say it again - I really LIKE the concept of the electric car, and look forward to it coming to fruition eventually. Heck, I even had plans for converting my 1970 Opel GT to a hybrid back in the late 70s...
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220323 is a reply to message #220321] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 11:32 |
Kudzu
Messages: 377
Registered: November 2011
Location: Marshville, NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I read a few years ago that if California converted to all electric
cars, they'd have to build *65* nuclear power plants to supply all that
additional electricity.
Dan in NC
1976 Eleganza II
On 8/29/2013 12:16 PM, Mark wrote:
> Good point. One of the other stinky wrinkles in the whole electric car
> concept is that there simply isn't enough electricity production to
> supply them if a significant percentage of us start driving them. Many
> of the western states (California chief among them) haven't added
> electric generation capacity in decades, and are teetering on the
> brink of brownouts or blackouts in the summer. Add in a few million
> extra electric cars (which use a HUGE amount of power compared to your
> "other appliances") and the situation will go from seriously
> inconvenient to dire. But I'll say it again - I really LIKE the
> concept of the electric car, and look forward to it coming to fruition
> eventually. Heck, I even had plans for converting my 1970 Opel GT to a
> hybrid back in the late 70s...
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1976 Eleganza II
1996 Chevy Impala SS
1999 Kawasaki Vulcan Nomad
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220324 is a reply to message #220321] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 11:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Well heck, Let's extrapolate this out into the day when many, many good
enviromental citizens get rid of their fossil fuel powered vehicles and
either ride public (tax supported holes in the ground that are never filled
up with money) transportation devices or electric vehicles. Where do all
them watts come from. Let's see, huge solar arrays on the top of every
apartment building (single family homes are such a waste) that charge
battery inverter banks to charge personal transportation vehicles is one
way. Cost more to build and wears out quicker than it can pay for itself,
but what the heck it is only money, and the government can print much more
of it any time it wants to, right? Let's see maybe we could just plug them
in to free curb side charging stations powered by wind, solar, hydro,
nuclear, fossil fuels and then build the delivery systems to get the power
to the curb side charging stations. We already dammed up all the good hydro
sites in the 30's and 40's. Heck, try to envision a large scale hydro
project like the TVA or the BPA today. Just think how long it would take to
obtain the permits to build such a thing. Easy, nope, do-able if we are
forced into it.
Just thinking forward here to the future. Glad I am in my 70's. Won't have
to listen to the hue and cry and gnashing of teeth that this will create.
(VERY BIG GRIN) BUT WORTH THINKING ABOUT ONCE IN A WHILE.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Mark <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>
> A Hamilto wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 08:27
> > ljdavick wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 03:06
> > > ...Lets not forget that the automobile is subsidized with taxpayer
> highways, bridges, etc. we've subsidized many emerging industries...
> > Wording has it backwards (automobiles subsidize highways, bridges, etc,
> through gas taxes), but I see something that hadn't occurred to me before.
> If electric cars become prevalent, the Gov't will have to find a way to
> tax the electricity that people use to charge them in order to continue to
> pay for road and bridge maintenance.
> >
> > The cost of that electricity will have to go up, reducing the savings
> that make electric cars so favorable.
> >
> > Right now, electrics aren't paying their fair share. Freeloaders, so to
> speak.
>
> Good point. One of the other stinky wrinkles in the whole electric car
> concept is that there simply isn't enough electricity production to supply
> them if a significant percentage of us start driving them. Many of the
> western states (California chief among them) haven't added electric
> generation capacity in decades, and are teetering on the brink of brownouts
> or blackouts in the summer. Add in a few million extra electric cars
> (which use a HUGE amount of power compared to your "other appliances") and
> the situation will go from seriously inconvenient to dire.
>
> But I'll say it again - I really LIKE the concept of the electric car, and
> look forward to it coming to fruition eventually. Heck, I even had plans
> for converting my 1970 Opel GT to a hybrid back in the late 70s...
>
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220352 is a reply to message #220324] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 14:18 |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Whenever a shortage (real or contrived) of crude oil drives up the price then the cost of alternative energy becomes competitive. It's never very long though before the price of crude comes back down to the point that renders alternative energy more expensive. Free market forces at work I suppose. After 40 yrs of various oil crises we've finally gotten to the point where photovoltaics & wind are becoming competitive with generated power. There's still too much untapped energy in the ground for electric vehicles to gain much market share. Not to mention the problems associated with manufacture and charging of batteries.
JP
>________________________________
> From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:35 PM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries
>
>
>Well heck, Let's extrapolate this out into the day when many, many good
>enviromental citizens get rid of their fossil fuel powered vehicles and
>either ride public (tax supported holes in the ground that are never filled
>up with money) transportation devices or electric vehicles. Where do all
>them watts come from. Let's see, huge solar arrays on the top of every
>apartment building (single family homes are such a waste) that charge
>battery inverter banks to charge personal transportation vehicles is one
>way. Cost more to build and wears out quicker than it can pay for itself,
>but what the heck it is only money, and the government can print much more
>of it any time it wants to, right? Let's see maybe we could just plug them
>in to free curb side charging stations powered by wind, solar, hydro,
>nuclear, fossil fuels and then build the delivery systems to get the power
>to the curb side charging stations. We already dammed up all the good hydro
>sites in the 30's and 40's. Heck, try to envision a large scale hydro
>project like the TVA or the BPA today. Just think how long it would take to
>obtain the permits to build such a thing. Easy, nope, do-able if we are
>forced into it.
>Just thinking forward here to the future. Glad I am in my 70's. Won't have
>to listen to the hue and cry and gnashing of teeth that this will create.
>(VERY BIG GRIN) BUT WORTH THINKING ABOUT ONCE IN A WHILE.
>Jim Hupy
>Salem, OR
>78 GMC Royale 403
>
>
>On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Mark <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A Hamilto wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 08:27
>> > ljdavick wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 03:06
>> > > ...Lets not forget that the automobile is subsidized with taxpayer
>> highways, bridges, etc. we've subsidized many emerging industries...
>> > Wording has it backwards (automobiles subsidize highways, bridges, etc,
>> through gas taxes), but I see something that hadn't occurred to me before.
>> If electric cars become prevalent, the Gov't will have to find a way to
>> tax the electricity that people use to charge them in order to continue to
>> pay for road and bridge maintenance.
>> >
>> > The cost of that electricity will have to go up, reducing the savings
>> that make electric cars so favorable.
>> >
>> > Right now, electrics aren't paying their fair share. Freeloaders, so to
>> speak.
>>
>> Good point. One of the other stinky wrinkles in the whole electric car
>> concept is that there simply isn't enough electricity production to supply
>> them if a significant percentage of us start driving them. Many of the
>> western states (California chief among them) haven't added electric
>> generation capacity in decades, and are teetering on the brink of brownouts
>> or blackouts in the summer. Add in a few million extra electric cars
>> (which use a HUGE amount of power compared to your "other appliances") and
>> the situation will go from seriously inconvenient to dire.
>>
>> But I'll say it again - I really LIKE the concept of the electric car, and
>> look forward to it coming to fruition eventually. Heck, I even had plans
>> for converting my 1970 Opel GT to a hybrid back in the late 70s...
>>
>> --
>> Mark Hickey
>> Mesa, AZ
>> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
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>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220355 is a reply to message #220312] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 14:33 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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The tax credit on hybrids went away in 2010. It put a lot of early prius' on the road. Now they are one their own and the credit has moved to all-electric and plugin hybrids.
Hybrids are fantastic technology. I think it was worth my tax dollars to help it get critical mass.
I have a 06 Hybrid that i bought used (no tax credit) and it is proving to be the cheapest car i ever owned. (80,000 trouble free miles)
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220358 is a reply to message #220262] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 15:05 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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... OR tow a little teardrop trailer with a big genny on it...
| ljdavick wrote on Wed, 28 August 2013 18:46 |
It's interesting to think how far we might go with batteries. One efficiency of batteries is that you only consume what you use. With the Onan the motor pumps away always willing to generate 6k, even if you're just making coffee.
My Leaf owning buddy thinks RV owner's will be great consumers of used Leafs (leaves?) just for the battery bank and charger.
While visiting a Tesla showroom the salesman said you could conceivably drive across country if you stopped at RV parks to recharge.
It looks as if we are at a pivotal time for the auto industry.
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-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: Lithium ion house batteries [message #220395 is a reply to message #220230] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 19:23 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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I am an engineer.
I have been an engineer most of my life.
I love novel power systems.
I have owned five diesel cars.
I have even owned a Wankel motor car.
I happen to like wind power. I have owned three wind powered vehicles. They were boats, but vehicles none the less.
I have a big collection of solar power collectors, both thermal and electric.
What you may not be aware of is that everything I do is evaluated on a spreadsheet even before personal computers were available. If I had access to one, I used it. If it did not, that is what spreadsheet means - people did do that on paper once upon a time.
Solar is still a ways from being cost effective everywhere. The PV panels are just too expensive to be competitive with fossil or hydro.
Wind might be in a workable thing, but Ontario Hydro is proving if it can be right now. It isn't looking good. The biggest issue is the reliability of the machines. Not only are they a maintenance headache, but you have to climb up there to deal with it and then bring in a GIANT crane if you need something too big to haul up by hand. If you traverse one of the large wind farms, you may notice that some are still even if the other are moving. They are probably broken. What you also may not know is that the managers have to take grid power to spin the turbine up if the wind is near eight knots. If they wait for the wind to get to be enough to spin them up, they cannot even get the blades started until they have twelve knots and they have missed the possible marginal generation from the ten to twelve window - if it should happen.
The place where environmental energy still wins is where it is an alternative to carrying or transporting fossil fuels. Any long passage cruiser can tell you all about this in great detail.
The problem with both wind and solar is that they are weather dependent. The one thing you can count on from weather is that it is undependable. This makes efficient energy storage a primary goal. I'm waiting.
Matt - actually an optimist
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Lithium ion house batteries [message #220438 is a reply to message #220230] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 22:37 |
Cadillackeeper
Messages: 464
Registered: October 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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The wildest thing to me is that there was more Electric cars on the road in 1900 than there is now!!I am a Huge Tesla fan,No not the car...The cool stuff is like the busses overseas with the gyros.They spin it at 6:00 AM and drive all day till 5:00 PM.No emissions,or Batteries.Real cool what they are doing though.I could get 2 68 GTO's
and a nice 70 Challenger for $100000.And they are repairable and don't say "Non User Serviceable"Nicky's Idea of wireless transmission is not dead yet!!
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lithium ion house batteries [message #220445 is a reply to message #220275] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 23:11 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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| habbyguy wrote on Wed, 28 August 2013 23:25 |
As long as the taxpayer has to ante up significant money ($7,500 per Leaf, IIRC) to make it work, we're not at any pivotal point... the time will come, but we're not there yet.
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Is that kind of like the tax break a small business can ge if they buy a 6000 lbs + gas hog, and get the big write off? Sure sold a lot of Hummer type Guzzelers for companies we had to bail out anyway.
I did enjoy the fact that Tesla sedan broke the roof crushing machine at the auto safety crash tests.
Back to batteries, I have LiFePo4s in Ruth's Ariens electric riding lawnmower. Now she come in tired before it gets tired. Twice the power and close to half the weight as the lead. And it starts every time. I hav thought about them for the GMC.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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