Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not (installing bolt on to upgrade engine)
| Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219198] |
Tue, 20 August 2013 00:45  |
jturbo
Messages: 76
Registered: August 2013
Location: Socal
Karma: 1
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This is another Engine Topic
Here I'm listing all that I know is availible and what has anyone done and did it do anything to make better power better fuel econ Etc. More longevity.
These are all questions and comments of what I assume may happen
Olds 455 / 403
1. Mondello Heads (Lowers weight maybe(Better fuel econ)(More performance)(Better Heat dissapation)
2. Roller rockers and lifters (better cam durability less maintenence)
3.Aluminum Intake (RPM or Edelbrock Which is better and why (Features Less weight)Blocked off crossover) (More Power)(Less Heat)
4. Water Pump (Flowkooler Less weight better modern pump) Or Stock pump)
5. Radiator (Stock one is fine or Aluminum)
6. Timing Chain (Whose is best upgrade (Edelbrock)(Cloyess) (Mondello)
7. Oil Pump (Is it needed or just a nice thing to do (High Cap)
8. EFI does it help in fuel economy or reliability? (Whose is best and does timing control matter)
9. Exhaust manifolds (Headers vs stock why change them or not)
10. Valve Covers (Stock or Aluminum) Is it just for looks or does it help cooling.
11. Glass Thermostat housing (a company online make a glass thermostat housing so you can see the coolant has anyone done this)
12. Coolant Filter (Since these engines are very old and we use a lot of coolant has anyone used a Coolant filter)
13. Oil filters (What is best (Napa,Bosch,Fleetguard,GM) (I ask about fleetguard as my brother works for PD and all the police vehicle use fleetguard and the mechanics say they get more out than most. But they also use dual filters on the heavy trucks.
14. Spark Plugs (Which are best for long durability and I have read the Spark chart (What are most people using)
15. Spark plug Wires (does it matter cheap or expensive)
And Yes I have read all the forums about this.
Just seeing what people are actually using and results etc.
1978 Royal 403
1977 Birchaven 455
1977 Kingsley 455
All under Upgrading and restoration
Rosemead California
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219873 is a reply to message #219198] |
Sun, 25 August 2013 12:14  |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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John ,
I see that no one has replied to your questions?
I will start and maybe someone else will comment too. Sometimes you have to stir them up to get answers. If anyone see something that can be added please do so.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:45 AM, john <tg16jturbo@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> This is another Engine Topic
>
> Here I'm listing all that I know is available and what has anyone done and did it do anything to make better power better fuel econ Etc. More longevity.
>
> These are all questions and comments of what I assume may happen
>
> Olds 455 / 403
Most all of these comment are both for the 403 and 455 engines
> 1. Mondello Heads (Lowers weight maybe(Better fuel econ)(More performance)(Better Heat dissipation)
The aluminum heads don't have a very good cost benefit ratio. By that I mean a good set of "J" heads are a better value. You can run a bit higher compression ratio with the aluminum heads as they cut detonation down. There are several guys have tried the Aluminum heads. The following picture album shows a complete installation of a set of aluminum heads.
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aluminum-heads-and-aluminum-intake/p26383-edelbrock-heads-and-aluminum-manifold-upgrade.html>
<http://www.mondellotwister.com/CylinderHeads.htm>
> 2. Roller rockers and lifters (better cam durability less maintenance)
Roller Rockers are a good addition and increase HP by reducing friction and heat at the valve tip. Don't believe that anyone is running a roller cam in their coach. It is really expensive for a roller cam and kit and the block mods that are required, not worth the cost. If you look at the entire photo album listed above it talk on how to install the roller rocker arms.
>
> 3.Aluminum Intake (RPM or Edelbrock Which is better and why (Features Less weight)Blocked off crossover) (More Power)(Less Heat)
The Gary Rockwell RPM manifold allows you to not have to add a dog house or raise the engine hatch. With original manifolds getting harder to get without being cracked it is a good replacement. The Edelbrock manifold will require that you raise the engine hatch in most applications. I run an Edelbrock set up with MPFI. My coach which is a Buskirk Stretch has the body set up 2" higher off the frame and I can run with a regular engine hatch.
>
> 4. Water Pump (Flowkooler Less weight better modern pump) Or Stock pump)
Have you read this: http://gmcmotorhome.info/watpump.html
Jim K also sells some really good water pumps at a fair price.
>
> 5. Radiator (Stock one is fine or Aluminum)
A good clean stock radiator is just fine. The Aluminum radiator works extremely well too. Other can comment on this.
>
> 6. Timing Chain (Whose is best upgrade (Edelbrock)(Cloyes) (Mondello)
Cloyes is probably the most used and the one that Mondello uses. Cloyes Street True Roller Speed Set (9-1100 series) the Cloyes part# of 9-1113 or the 9-3113 unit. The 9-3113 chain set is preferred. If required the unit in available in reduced center distance if you have had the block align honed during rebuild. Cloyes is 100% US made!
<http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-1113/10002/-1?parentProductId=752317#moreDetails>
<http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3113/10002/-1?parentProductId=>
<http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1113/overview/make/oldsmobile>
<http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3113/overview/make/oldsmobile>
>
> 7. Oil Pump (Is it needed or just a nice thing to do (High Cap)
Dick Patterson puts High Capacity pumps in all the motor he buildsI also believe that Jim B's Koba motors come with HC pumps too. The more oil that you have moving about the more heat you can remove. Anyone with more comments here!
>
> 8. EFI does it help in fuel economy or reliability? (Whose is best and does timing control matter)
EFI can really wake up your engine and increase hp and mpg. As I said I have MPFI Accel Gen 6 system. Start up first turn and engine runs great and pulls hard on the hills.
<http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/products/Oldsmobile_Complete_MPFI_System-23-39.html>
< http://www.promracing.com/pro-m-efi-engine-management-systems/oldsmobile-complete-efi-systems/455-gmc-motorhome-complete-mass-air-sequential-port-efi- system.html>
The Howell TBI system works very well also and if you add EBL Flash addition you have a very tunable system
<http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/845>
<http://www.dynamicefi.com>
<http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/products/Oldsmobile_Complete_TBI_System_w_Distributor-11-12.html>
>
> 9. Exhaust manifolds (Headers vs stock why change them or not)
The real problem is that the cast manifolds are getting harder to find at a reasonable price. Headers will provide a performance increase.
>
> 10. Valve Covers (Stock or Aluminum) Is it just for looks or does it help cooling.
Bling is good!
>
> 11. Glass Thermostat housing (a company online make a glass thermostat housing so you can see the coolant has anyone done this)
Not important, you can't watch it going down the road. Oops, sorry Dan you have the clear engine hatch and I bet you would want one.
>
> 12. Coolant Filter (Since these engines are very old and we use a lot of coolant has anyone used a Coolant filter)
Coolant is NOT that expensive! I change mine about every 3 or 4 years. Emery is a Coolant expert having sold coolant for Dow Chemical. I know that he has a lot of good knowledge on the topic. Coolant filters are just something that you do not need to add.
>
> 13. Oil filters (What is best (Napa,Bosch,Fleetguard,GM) (I ask about fleetguard as my brother works for PD and all the police vehicle use fleetguard and the mechanics say they get more out than most. But they also use dual filters on the heavy trucks.
Everyone has there own choice. I use the WIX 51049, it adds a little more oil volumn and filter surface. I have also used the ACDelco PF 24
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-part-numbers/p50590-oil-filters-size-compa.html>
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-part-numbers/p50592-oil-filter-size-comparison.html>
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-part-numbers/p50593-oil-filter-size-comparison.html>
>
> 14. Spark Plugs (Which are best for long durability and I have read the Spark chart (What are most people using)
I run the E3 spark plugs in the coach, part# E3.52 as from box. I had run the original ACDelco #7 plug before AC changed the construction and are NOT the same! The old plug was supposedly good for 100K miles. I would suggest that any of the premium Platinum plugs are good and I would suggest a gap of .038 would works best and which is most come out of the box set as.
>
> 15. Spark plug Wires (does it matter cheap or expensive)
It is not cheap or expensive, the term you want is GOOD! I have run the Dick Pattterson wires ($$$.$$)on our other coach. I am presently running a set of NAPA premium plug wires, about $40 a set. Buy what you can afford.
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-part-numbers/p50588-spark-plug-wires.html>
>
> And Yes I have read all the forums about this.
>
> Just seeing what people are actually using and results etc.
>
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219894 is a reply to message #219881] |
Sun, 25 August 2013 17:31 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Neal,
You are correct! He would be the only one at this time that builds this type of motor. For what you get his price is pretty fair!
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
On Aug 25, 2013, at 2:41 PM, Neil Martin <nmartin@hfbllp.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have a roller cam motor. The selling point was to address the lack of zinc in modern oil formulations. Jim B's motors are, I believe, all roller cam motors.
> --
> Neil
> 76 Eleganza
> Los Angeles
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219900 is a reply to message #219873] |
Sun, 25 August 2013 18:20 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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I agree with most of what JR wrote, but I have a few additions and one question of my own.
Look for =>
| powerjon wrote on Sun, 25 August 2013 13:14 |
John ,
I see that no one has replied to your questions?
I will start and maybe someone else will comment too. Sometimes you have to stir them up to get answers. If anyone see something that can be added please do so.
JR Wright
On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:45 AM, john <tg16jturbo@mac.com> wrote:
>
> This is another Engine Topic
> Here I'm listing all that I know is available and what has anyone done and did it do anything to make better power better fuel econ Etc. More longevity.
>
> These are all questions and comments of what I assume may happen
> Olds 455 / 403
<snip>
> 7. Oil Pump (Is it needed or just a nice thing to do (High Cap)
Dick Patterson puts High Capacity pumps in all the motor he buildsI also believe that Jim B's Koba motors come with HC pumps too. The more oil that you have moving about the more heat you can remove. Anyone with more comments here!
=> It is important to note that Dick P also builds his engines with clearances on the high side. He is doing this for more flow. That makes more cooling (lube oil's first job) and better flushing (lube oil's third job). He is not trying to get more oil pressure.
>
> 13. Oil filters (What is best (Napa,Bosch,Fleetguard,GM) (I ask about fleetguard as my brother works for PD and all the police vehicle use fleetguard and the mechanics say they get more out than most. But they also use dual filters on the heavy trucks.
Everyone has there own choice. I use the WIX 51049, it adds a little more oil volumn and filter surface. I have also used the ACDelco PF 24
=> The actual cross is a WIX 51258. In an installation with a functional cooler (GMC does have) the extra filter volume won't get you very much. Any regular filter can trap all the expected wear and combustion by-products that should appear. We just don't like Fram around. (Some by them to use the gasket and toss the filter.)
>
> 14. Spark Plugs (Which are best for long durability and I have read the Spark chart (What are most people using)
I run the E3 spark plugs in the coach, part# E3.52 as from box. I had run the original ACDelco #7 plug before AC changed the construction and are NOT the same! The old plug was supposedly good for 100K miles. I would suggest that any of the premium Platinum plugs are good and I would suggest a gap of .038 would works best and which is most come out of the box set as.
=> Question for JR...
Can you set the gap on E3.52? I have been running (not HEI) a 0.060 and the engine seems to like it a lot. It did not like 0.040. To those who care: Pertonix, Delta Mk10B, standard coil.
>
> 15. Spark plug Wires (does it matter cheap or expensive)
It is not cheap or expensive, the term you want is GOOD! I have run the Dick Patterson wires ($$$.$$)on our other coach. I am presently running a set of NAPA premium plug wires, about $40 a set. Buy what you can afford.
=> If you like to abuse the poor sparking plugs as I do, you may want to go to 8.8 wires. The Accel set that I put on when I went of CD ignition have been good for 25k miles and show no signs of problems. (A water mist at night is not a light show, but we did have some wet trouble when Mary drove through a Really Big Deep Puddle, but the cap is original...)
>
> And Yes I have read all the forums about this.
=> That was a very good start.
>
> Just seeing what people are actually using and results etc.
=> Also a good idea. (Learning from other people's mistakes is much less expensive.)
|
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219917 is a reply to message #219902] |
Sun, 25 August 2013 21:17 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| powerjon wrote on Sun, 25 August 2013 19:28 |
Matt,
No, you run them out of the Box.
Here is the link to their site:
http://www.e3sparkplugs.com
As an ex engine guy take a look at their data and see if it makes sense to you.
JR
|
JR,
It took a while to digest the technical part of the site. Whoever wrote it knows the right terms to use to keep us engineers listening, but the site is short on real data. There has been analytical equipment available for a decade that could make a much better show. (And some of the traces on graphs are mislabeled.)
The whole part about blowing the flame kernal into the center of the charge has been an ongoing discussion for a very long time, but other than the plasma ignition system developed by NASA (that needed a huge amount of power, nobody has done it.
The higher energy ignition is what HEI and everything newer is all about.
Please let us all know how those plugs do for you. There is nothing that says that they did not hit a good thing.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219983 is a reply to message #219973] |
Mon, 26 August 2013 10:46 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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| Jim Bounds wrote on Mon, 26 August 2013 06:45 |
More I feel than just the selling point, it seems to be a fact that lower ZDDP levels are in our future in our oil supply and it is something that effects the logevity of our motors.
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For those who want the advantages of high-zinc (ZDDP) oil, but also want the advantages of synthetic (or synthetic blend) oil, there seems to be a new option...
http://www.hemmings.com/classicoil
Hemmings Motor News is selling high zinc and phosphorus ZDDP oil by the six-pack. $53.95 for a six-pack of SAE 10W30 or 20W50 synthetic blend, or $69.95 for 15W50 full synthetic. That includes shipping, so it doesn't sound too bad. Kind of the best of both worlds, I guess...
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not [message #219986 is a reply to message #219983] |
Mon, 26 August 2013 11:03 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Amazon carries reasonably priced ZDDP Plus in single and several multi-pack variations. Roughly $10 per bottle single, price break for multi packs. I'm going this route; will work nicely in the GMC, my '64 Falcon vert, and the '68 Ford 429 in the jetboat. The 3-pack is $26.50.
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: mark@habcycles.com
> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 10:46:58 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engines Current Upgrades available and worth it or not
>
>
>
> Jim Bounds wrote on Mon, 26 August 2013 06:45
> > More I feel than just the selling point, it seems to be a fact that lower ZDDP levels are in our future in our oil supply and it is something that effects the logevity of our motors.
>
> For those who want the advantages of high-zinc (ZDDP) oil, but also want the advantages of synthetic (or synthetic blend) oil, there seems to be a new option...
>
> http://www.hemmings.com/classicoil
>
> Hemmings Motor News is selling high zinc and phosphorus ZDDP oil by the six-pack. $53.95 for a six-pack of SAE 10W30 or 20W50 synthetic blend, or $69.95 for 15W50 full synthetic. That includes shipping, so it doesn't sound too bad. Kind of the best of both worlds, I guess...
>
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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