| Engines [message #218671] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 20:47  |
jturbo
Messages: 76
Registered: August 2013
Location: Socal
Karma: 1
|
Member |
|
|
Just inquiring about Engines compatibility etc.
Since supposedly we can bolt the following engines into our vehicles.
Has anyone done this to improve mileage etc.
Olds Diesel 350
Olds 307
olds 350
And if not why?
Do any modern engines work in these vehicles?
If not why??
IT would be nice to put in a GM 5.3 or 6.0 with Active fuel management
1978 Royal 403
1977 Birchaven 455
1977 Kingsley 455
All under Upgrading and restoration
Rosemead California
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218674 is a reply to message #218671] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 20:59  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I think the 3 engines you list would be short lived and dangerously underpowered to move 11K# on any % grade or at altitude
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218675 is a reply to message #218671] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 21:00 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim Bounds has a Olds 350 in one of his coaches. Designed as a stripped down flatland runner if I recall correctly.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218679 is a reply to message #218671] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 21:19 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| jturbo wrote on Fri, 16 August 2013 21:47 |
Just inquiring about Engines compatibility etc.
Since supposedly we can bolt the following engines into our vehicles.
Has anyone done this to improve mileage etc.
Olds Diesel 350
Olds 307
olds 350
And if not why?
Do any modern engines work in these vehicles?
If not why??
IT would be nice to put in a GM 5.3 or 6.0 with Active fuel management
|
John,
I have been an engine professional all my life since obtaining my initial degrees and license. Before that I was just an "Engine Guy" without certification.....
First things first.
The Olds 350 Diesel was the epitome of a Detroit inspired disaster. It was not a "ground up" diesel, but a conversion of a gasoline engine. If you buy the beer, in about three, I will finish going on about what was wrong with that engine.
Let's get back to the other BOC engines that can bolt in without "Linze Level" engineering.
The Olds 350 might make it, but it would take an absolutely first class build to make it survive. Example: Many of the Travco Dodges were shipped with the LA block engines (318/360). They did work, but were notable short of power and typically required majors early. This is simple because the engine was being loaded at too high a power for too much of the time. Very simply, if the rings and valves are not top shelf, they won't last. If you were to go this way, you have to start thinking about a 4.11 or 4.56 final drive that would sacrifice some bearing wear for power cylinder longevity but it might be a good trade.
With the newer materials and manufacturing, this could be done. but if you didn't start out with enough basic displacement, you just aren't make the torque (therefore horsepower) to get the coach over the hill.
A poor old Olds 307 wouldn't stand a chance.
Could it be done? I have no Doubt. It would take a Detroit engineering level program to do it.
This is all based on many years of experience in engine labs.
We are going to a museum tomorrow that I have avoided for many years as much of it is about the day a lost some friends. (Nov1075)
Matt - who is going to bed now.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218689 is a reply to message #218679] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 22:05 |
GMC Cruse
Messages: 606
Registered: June 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 16 August 2013 22:19 |
abs.
We are going to a museum tomorrow that I have avoided for many years as much of it is about the day a lost some friends. (Nov1075)
Matt - who is going to bed now.
|
Must be Whitefish Point since you are in the UP. I have fond memories of going there and Paradise every summer as a kid.
Mike K.
'75 PB
Southeast Michigan
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218695 is a reply to message #218671] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 23:52 |
Cadillackeeper
Messages: 464
Registered: October 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Easiest most powerful economic choice is the Cad.Why in the world in this day and age would someone try to reinvent stuff.
Its 455 B O P or the 403 or the only other choice 472/500 Proper GM
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Engines [message #218729 is a reply to message #218695] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 09:04 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Anthony,
I have a Caddy 500 sitting in my workshop in Sydney that has a 10.5 to 1 CR that will be run on AutoGas (60%LPG 40&Butane) and
premium gas when AutoGas is not available.
The cam Jerry Potter recommended is designed to produce torque at low rpm, however, I doubt it will do that this 8.1 cu. Liter
Vortec will do:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/500/2009_Kodiak_8_1.pdf
Note the torque is 410 ft lb @ 1200 rpm.
Dave Lenzi has a 8.1 in his coach and I have had the good fortune of driving it, you touch the gas pedal and it's GONE! Plus he gets
around 12 mpg.
It is NOT an economical engine swap but I reckon it's the best out there for our GMC's.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: anthony ezzo
Easiest most powerful economic choice is the Cad.Why in the world in this day and age would someone try to reinvent stuff.
Its 455 B O P or the 403 or the only other choice 472/500 Proper GM
--
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Engines [message #218788 is a reply to message #218782] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 17:56 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| larry.whisler wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 15:18 |
What about the 425 ci that olds produced in 66-67 with a
10.25-1 compression ratio used with EFI and ignition control management?
Less cubic inch displacement for better fuel mileage and
a higher compression ratio for more horsepower.
Would require higher octane fuel but that additional cost
would be offset by better fuel mileage.
larry
|
Generally, high compression and heavy weight vehicles do NOT mix. Too much heat generated in the combustion chambers. It might be possible with Aluminum heads.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218802 is a reply to message #218671] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 18:54 |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This subject comes up every now and then and when it does I always am curious to know about people that have installed a 454. What were the major hurdles that had to be overcome? Would they do it again?
I seen some pics on the photo site of some one who installed a 454. Seems the major modification is the oil pan. Besides having to modify the oil pan, which is beyond my current know-how, what else needs to be modified that would be to costly to make it a viable engine swap? Engine mount? Trans adapter?
The 454 is appealing because you can buy a brand spank'n new on from GM performance.
Jon
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218819 is a reply to message #218802] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 20:27 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Jon Payne wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 18:54 |
...
The 454 is appealing because you can buy a brand spank'n new on from GM performance.
Jon
|
Went down this discussion route a few months ago because I have a fairly new 454 in an 1 ton truck not being used. The consensus is that the 454 is not the engine that the Olds or Caddy is. Yeah you can get all sorts of speed parts fairly cheap because there are so many of them out there. However that's not what you want for a motor home that is rarely going to see 4000 rpm. And, while you can get a brand new crate engine, you can buy a high dollar Olds rebuilt for the same money and end up with a better package.
Tranny adapter, mounts, oil pans, making all the accessories fit and the hoses/wiring to them... Can be done but non trivial.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Engines [message #218834 is a reply to message #218819] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 22:09 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
What it boils down to is that nothing but the 455/403 Olds or the Cad 500
(what you could have bought in a Toronado or El Dorado attached to a 425 is
enough of an improvement to be worth the effort. The only reason is to save
money (a built olds or cad is powerful enough for most), and you can buy a
lot of gas for what a more fuel efficient set up would run you to figure
out.
I keep thinking that with $4+ gallon gas someone will figure out a cost
effective diesel and modern transmission conversion for these. If it cost
$20k and got 16mpg it would eventually pay for its self (assuming you were
going to drop $10k for engine/transmission/final drive upgrades and
replacement, so you are only paying an extra $10k), but your milage isn't
going to be much better no matter what, and no way to do it that will hit
that price.
If gas goes to $8 a gallon, someone may figure out something, but $4 is bad
enough.
Hot rod that old v8, Manny trany, the right final drive, and be happy.
On Aug 17, 2013 6:27 PM, "Kerry Pinkerton" <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jon Payne wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 18:54
> > ...
> >
> > The 454 is appealing because you can buy a brand spank'n new on from GM
> performance.
> >
> > Jon
>
>
> Went down this discussion route a few months ago because I have a fairly
> new 454 in an 1 ton truck not being used. The consensus is that the 454 is
> not the engine that the Olds or Caddy is. Yeah you can get all sorts of
> speed parts fairly cheap because there are so many of them out there.
> However that's not what you want for a motor home that is rarely going to
> see 4000 rpm. And, while you can get a brand new crate engine, you can buy
> a high dollar Olds rebuilt for the same money and end up with a better
> package.
>
> Tranny adapter, mounts, oil pans, making all the accessories fit and the
> hoses/wiring to them... Can be done but non trivial.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
1973 26' GM outfitted
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Engines [message #218986 is a reply to message #218671] |
Sun, 18 August 2013 19:38 |
Cadillackeeper
Messages: 464
Registered: October 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Different bell house on the early 425 transmissions,I know I have the 67 trans kinda bolted to my 500 now.Anyways,As you all know I am a Caddy guy.But my UAV will always stay a 455.Thats partially the reason I wanted a GMC besides the Eldo connection.All parts stores have on their shelves water pumps,fuel pumps and all kinds
of little Olds stuff.Caddy stuff not so.I do know you can take the arm off an Olds fuel pump and use the Cad arm but still.I would hate to be in the middle of Montana on a Sunday night in the rain in something other than whats Proven and easily repairable on the side of the road.It would not be so with some computer controlled late model disposable engine.I hear about Gas almost every day in my car from people everywhere.I get about 12 normally.If I abuse it 7MPG.I can always make it to the gas station.The guy in the brand new Nissan/Toyota has to first pay thousands of dollars for the car,then big full coverage insurance,interest if financed.Then gas!!! Then he has to pull his wallet again when the "Service Engine Now"light comes on and the Tech says
you need the sensor changed and its only $600.How about the New Camaro?Its auto tranny is a sealed unit and is non serviceable and its only $7500.Being on the bleeding edge of technology is cool and novel but mostly never better in my opinion.When gas gets to $10 I will still be driving and all the folks with the late model cars won't be able to afford paying for their disposable smart high gas milage car/ins/maint and GAS.Go with what works and has worked for the last 45 years.No reason to try to change things up in this area. Sorry for the Rant!!!
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Engines [message #218989 is a reply to message #218834] |
Sun, 18 August 2013 19:44 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Ronald Pottol wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 23:09 |
What it boils down to is that nothing but the 455/403 Olds or the Cad 500 (what you could have bought in a Toronado or El Dorado attached to a 425 is enough of an improvement to be worth the effort. The only reason is to save money (a built olds or cad is powerful enough for most), and you can buy a lot of gas for what a more fuel efficient set up would run you to figure
out.
I keep thinking that with $4+ gallon gas someone will figure out a cost effective diesel and modern transmission conversion for these. If it cost $20k and got 16mpg it would eventually pay for its self (assuming you were going to drop $10k for engine/transmission/final drive upgrades and replacement, so you are only paying an extra $10k), but your mileage isn't going to be much better no matter what, and no way to do it that will hit
that price.
If gas goes to $8 a gallon, someone may figure out something, but $4 is bad enough.
Hot rod that old v8, Manny trany, the right final drive, and be happy.
|
Problem.....
Current fuel cost is 3.55$/gal Current mileage is 10MPG (just for the case).
You hope to go to a 16MPG diesel. Current diesel cost is 3.96$/gal
Gas is 0.355/mile
Diesel is 0.2475/mile
Gives you a difference of 0.1075$/mile
If you can do the desired conversion for 10,000$us,
You will amortize the investment in 93023 miles.
This is assuming you did it without borrowing any funds.
As an engineer, I spent a large portion of my time trying to prove to management that the ROI was there and it was a good plan.
Matt - still watching iron boats go by.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
|
|
|
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
