Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ?
| Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 10:48  |
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batman
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2004
Location: Benbrook, TX
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I'm having my 455 rebuilt.
It has cylinder wall damage from a valve that broke off and got chewed up inside cylinder #3.
The block will be tested for cracks, but visually the other cylinders look good and the damaged cylinder looks like it can be bored without a sleeve.
Should I just have that one cylinder sleeved and bored to match the others.
Or should I have all the cylinders bored to match and avoid having the cylinder sleeved?
eugene
benbrook, tx
77 Eleganza II, Howell EFI + EBL
http://gmc.backyardwildlife.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217364 is a reply to message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 10:52  |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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It would probably be cheaper to sleeve it and have it bored/hone matched to the piston compared to boring/hone matching all 8 and buying new pistons. If it's really minor, you might get away with boring 0.005" and using 0.005" over rings if they're available for the 455.
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: emazz@swbell.net
> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 10:48:19 -0500
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ?
>
>
>
> I'm having my 455 rebuilt.
>
> It has cylinder wall damage from a valve that broke off and got chewed up inside cylinder #3.
>
> The block will be tested for cracks, but visually the other cylinders look good and the damaged cylinder looks like it can be bored without a sleeve.
>
> Should I just have that one cylinder sleeved and bored to match the others.
>
> Or should I have all the cylinders bored to match and avoid having the cylinder sleeved?
> --
> eugene
> benbrook, tx
> 77 Eleganza II
> http://gmc.backyardwildlife.com
> _______________________________________________
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217388 is a reply to message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 13:08 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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If it was me and I could get 8 smooth holes by boring up to .030, I'd do that. If the bad one didn't clean up at 030, I'd personally replace the block. I don't think I'd sleeve an engine when there's a replacement block available. Personal preference.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
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On Thu, 8/8/13, eugene <emazz@swbell.net> wrote:
Subject: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ?
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Thursday, August 8, 2013, 3:48 PM
I'm having my 455 rebuilt.
It has cylinder wall damage from a valve that broke off and
got chewed up inside cylinder #3.
The block will be tested for cracks, but visually the other
cylinders look good and the damaged cylinder looks like it
can be bored without a sleeve.
Should I just have that one cylinder sleeved and bored to
match the others.
Or should I have all the cylinders bored to match and avoid
having the cylinder sleeved?
--
eugene
benbrook, tx
77 Eleganza II
http://gmc.backyardwildlife.com
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217393 is a reply to message #217388] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 13:15 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I had to replace the 454 block in my former 23' jet boat; seller claimed it was winterized 8^(. The only one I could find locally needed two sleeves. Ran great for six seasons after the rebuild before I sold it. A boat engine has more load on it than even an RV engine does.
Nothing wrong with sleeves if installed properly. They actually make a more robust cylinder.
Is the 455 a thin-walled block? If not, it should be fine boring to 0.060" or maybe even 0.080".
> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 11:08:50 -0700
> From: jhbridges@ymail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ?
>
> If it was me and I could get 8 smooth holes by boring up to .030, I'd do that. If the bad one didn't clean up at 030, I'd personally replace the block. I don't think I'd sleeve an engine when there's a replacement block available. Personal preference.
>
> --johnny
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 8/8/13, eugene <emazz@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ?
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Thursday, August 8, 2013, 3:48 PM
>
>
>
> I'm having my 455 rebuilt.
>
> It has cylinder wall damage from a valve that broke off and
> got chewed up inside cylinder #3.
>
> The block will be tested for cracks, but visually the other
> cylinders look good and the damaged cylinder looks like it
> can be bored without a sleeve.
>
> Should I just have that one cylinder sleeved and bored to
> match the others.
>
> Or should I have all the cylinders bored to match and avoid
> having the cylinder sleeved?
> --
> eugene
> benbrook, tx
> 77 Eleganza II
> http://gmc.backyardwildlife.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217420 is a reply to message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 15:59 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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| batman wrote on Thu, 08 August 2013 10:48 |
...Should I just have that one cylinder sleeved and bored to match the others.
Or should I have all the cylinders bored to match and avoid having the cylinder sleeved?
|
Eugene, I'll fess up and tell everyone what I did on my 403. I had one cylinder with a scratch in it from a broken ring that would not hone out. John Beaver gave me the choice of boring just that piston or doing them all. Eight pistons is considerably more expensive than one...
I asked John what he would do. He's been an full time engine builder for 30 years and is a new GMC owner. His reply was that given the low RPM of the motor in the coach (4000RPM at the MAX, he wouldn't be afraid of just boring the one piston the 20 over needed to clear the scratch and balancing the piston to match the others. So that's what we did.
I'm not concerned in the least. I don't want to invest the time to calculate how much larger surface area 20 over gives and what impact that may or may not have on power produced in the combustion chamber but am confident it's less that what would be the result of having +-5psi compression difference. In other words, no biggie.
Just what I did. Your mileage may vary.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217422 is a reply to message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 16:12 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I also wouldn't get my knickers in a twist over a ~1% increase in bore in one cylinder. To think that you can EVER get all eight cylinders in a big block - especially one with a really flat intake manifold - to better than 1% variance cylinder-to-cylinder is wishful thinking. If it was an 8,000 rpm turbo motor, maybe I'd be a lot more concerned... but unless funds are unlimited, pretty much everything we do is a compromise of some sort.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217439 is a reply to message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 18:21 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| batman wrote on Thu, 08 August 2013 11:48 |
I'm having my 455 rebuilt.
It has cylinder wall damage from a valve that broke off and got chewed up inside cylinder #3.
The block will be tested for cracks, but visually the other cylinders look good and the damaged cylinder looks like it can be bored without a sleeve.
Should I just have that one cylinder sleeved and bored to match the others.
Or should I have all the cylinders bored to match and avoid having the cylinder sleeved?
|
Eugene,
I had an I6 that had one piston that was 60 (actually 1.5mm) over. It had been one of the sweetest engines I had ever run, then a piston broke, I repaired it and it still was. There is a funny thing about engines, if it is a good running engine, and it takes a critical hit, when it is repaired, it will be a good running engine again. (No, I don't know why and measurements and calibration can't change that.
There is no reason that all the pistons/bores/cylinders have to match. The only thing that does matter is that they all weight the same. If they do not, you will have a shake that will haunt you forever.
If that bore can be cleaned by machining, go for it..
If it needs a sleeve, well then that may be better than scrapping the block. We don't run these engines as hard as they could be or else the cooling issues with a dry sleeve might be a problem. JimK might, but nobody else is likely to.
Please be aware that this is all opinions that are based on years of experience in engine work by an engineer that has done little else of note.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Re-bore or sleeve cylinders ? [message #217448 is a reply to message #217362] |
Thu, 08 August 2013 18:57 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Ever do a compression test or a cylinder leakage test? Most of the time you will find that those tests show more than a 1% difference between the cylinders. If you are on a tight budget, over bore that one cylinder (like Kerry did) enough to clean up the scratch. I'd do a quick hone job on all cylinders (careful...just enough to break the glaze) cut the top ring ridge, install new rings, making sure that you put the over size rings on the overbore piston and put the motor together. Until the rings break in to the shape of each cylinder, you are going to burn some oil.
I worked at a speed shop years ago, and this is what the master mechanic taught me about ring instillation.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4104-putting-rings-on-pistons.html
I think this approach to ring orientation is part of the reason that I have 170lbs + or - 5lbs and only burn about 1qt every 3K miles.
Maybe read this to when you get a chance. Not all would agree with this approach, but worked for me on a lot of motors.
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Weidner_Rebuilding_that_Motor.pdf
Keep in mind now....this all JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, *and* my relatively informed, off the cuff, back yard mechanic, gut level, eyeball it up and guestimate, way of doing things....that's all...
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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