Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » R-22 refrigerant
| R-22 refrigerant [message #215619] |
Thu, 25 July 2013 03:56  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Is there any reason not to put dye in an R-22 AC system?
My daughter's home Central AC quit and I'm headed over there with my AC gauges and a bottle of R-22 tomorrow. I'm not sure what I'll find, but if it is low on R-22 I would like to add some dye when I recharge the system.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215714 is a reply to message #215629] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 00:28  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I went over and looked at it today. It is not a low on refrigerant problem. The compressor will not start and trips it's internal thermal after a second or two of power. Voltage is 242 volts to the compressor. As far As I can tell the motor start capacitor is OK. I'll have to look at the capacitor some more or replace it.
The last thing I want to do is replace the compressor. This one is around $500 wholesale. If I do replace it I'll need to figure out how to save the existing R-22. I have often thought of making a recovery system with an old refrigerator compressor, an oil separator, and a used R-22 bottle.
Static pressure without the compressor running was 130 PSI. I do not know what the high and low side pressures were because I could not get the compressor to do anything other than hum for a second or two and trip the internal thermal.
I do not think I need the dye at this point.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215727 is a reply to message #215619] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 07:23 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Ken,
The prices on tracer dye are all over the spectrum. I found this stuff on
Ebay and have used it to find leaks in the trans lines, AC system, coolant,
and engine oil. I use an LED UV light and it shows up incredibly bright
fluorescent green wherever there is a leak or seep. Good price!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tracer-Products-TP-3405-1-Oz-Bottles-Dye-lite-All-in-one-Full-Spectrum-Oil-Dye-/330917945909?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=it em4d0c3f2235
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 1:56 AM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Is there any reason not to put dye in an R-22 AC system?
>
> My daughter's home Central AC quit and I'm headed over there with my AC
> gauges and a bottle of R-22 tomorrow. I'm not sure what I'll find, but if
> it is low on R-22 I would like to add some dye when I recharge the system.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215730 is a reply to message #215714] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 07:44 |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
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Ken,
I don't know what your experience level is. If you know all this already then good luck. Most R-22 residential A/C units come with a run capacitor only. When a start cap is present, it's usually part of a "hard start" kit. These are often added on when the compressor starts acting in the manner you describe. It sounds like it's tripping on high current. Get an AC ammeter for $10.99. http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-clamp-on-multimeter-95652.html
If the system doesn't have a start kit already, there's a fair chance that will fix your problem. Not all start kits are created equal. Definitely get one recommended by the manufacturer. Usually a three wire type.
You can do crude cap check using an ohm-meter. Make sure the cap is discharged by shorting out the terminals. Set the ohmmeter to the highest setting and check the resistance across the terminals. At first it will appear open circuit but as the cap charges up the resistance will go to infinity. Depending on rated capacitance, this will take half a minute or so.
I've been told that newer R-22 cylinders have a check valve to prevent re-use. Used cylinders for re-cycling R-22 are fairly cheap these days.
130 PSI translates to ambient temp of about 72 F. Probably OK there.
JP
>________________________________
> From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 1:28 AM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant
>
>
>
>
>I went over and looked at it today. It is not a low on refrigerant problem. The compressor will not start and trips it's internal thermal after a second or two of power. Voltage is 242 volts to the compressor. As far As I can tell the motor start capacitor is OK. I'll have to look at the capacitor some more or replace it.
>
>The last thing I want to do is replace the compressor. This one is around $500 wholesale. If I do replace it I'll need to figure out how to save the existing R-22. I have often thought of making a recovery system with an old refrigerator compressor, an oil separator, and a used R-22 bottle.
>
>Static pressure without the compressor running was 130 PSI. I do not know what the high and low side pressures were because I could not get the compressor to do anything other than hum for a second or two and trip the internal thermal.
>
>I do not think I need the dye at this point.
>--
>Ken Burton - N9KB
>76 Palm Beach
>Hebron, Indiana
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215761 is a reply to message #215619] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 10:48 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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We recently had a tech out (well, actually 3) to look at our AC as it had pooped out and I learned a lot. First - and I’d heard this before - R22 systems are sealed and there should never be the need to add R22 without finding the leak.
Our first tech was, in hindsight, clueless. He added 5# of R22 without looking for a leak. 2 weeks later our AC was flat again.
The second tech (who was on the right track, but I thought was clueless) identified a restriction at the evaporator coil. He quoted $1,300 to replace the coil and recharge with the new R stuff (134?).
The third tech agreed that there was a restriction, and likely caused by a poor initial installation. It seems that the line-set (pipes running between the compressor/condensor and the evaporator) were “soft-soldered” as if they were plumbing lines. In the AC world these should be brazed. The problem is that flux can enter the system and clog the metering valve - exactly what happened to our system. Furthermore if freon is added to the system too quickly it can mix up the oil and cause excess oil to migrate through the system (I’m not really clear on this one...)
He sucked all the R-22 into the compressor/condensor blew out the lines with nitrogen, cleaned the metering valve (that was also oil soaked), installed a filter/dryer, and gave me a bill.
We now have a nice cool house and a smaller checking account. I have no idea what you will find, but I thought the work these fellows did was interesting.
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
On Jul 25, 2013, at 1:56 AM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Is there any reason not to put dye in an R-22 AC system?
>
> My daughter's home Central AC quit and I'm headed over there with my AC gauges and a bottle of R-22 tomorrow. I'm not sure what I'll find, but if it is low on R-22 I would like to add some dye when I recharge the system.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: R-22 refrigerant [message #215767 is a reply to message #215619] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 11:08 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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You can disconnect the comp wires at the cap and meter Ohms of the comp . Also meter each lead to case. If you have a reading there she's shot. Best bet might be a new condensing unit at that point. Compresor replacement isn't always cost effective and a bad money gamble. Try www.surpluscityliquidators.com for a cheap dry 22 unit. Caution as some are China.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: R-22 refrigerant [message #215848 is a reply to message #215767] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 23:26 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Thanks John. I looked through that site. I already metered the start and run leads and they look OK. This one does not have a start capacitor but it does have a 2 part run and fan capacitor. That metered OK BUT it really is impossible to tell if it has changed value. So before I go about replacing the compressor or the entire condenser unit I'm thinking about throwing a new $20.00 capacitor at it.
I have a lot of experience on auto AC systems but not on house AC systems, so I have a lot of questions.
I'm thinking the compressor is jammed but I need to prove it to my self before I go about replacing it or the entire outside condenser/ compressor unit.
1. Can I remove the condenser unit and replace it with another brand of similar specs with out changing the A coil and the orifice?
2. Can I replace the condenser unit with a slightly larger one (21,800 BTU to 24,000 BTU) without changing anything at the furnace mounted A-coil?
3. Can I switch Condenser unit types from the current R-22 to the R410a type without making any changes at the A-coil?
I'm still working on how to cheaply recover the 5 pounds or so of R-22 from the existing system before I take anything apart.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215850 is a reply to message #215848] |
Fri, 26 July 2013 23:46 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I did it once to R-12: Connect a recovery tank to the suction line through
your gauge set. Put the tank in a big tub of ice and water (or,
preferably, dry ice and alcohol). A percentage of the Freon will migrate
to the cold tank, dependent upon the temperature difference.
Cheaper than building a pumped system for occasional use. Weigh the tank
before and after so you know how much you've recovered.
KenH
On Jul 26, 2013 9:27 PM, "Ken Burton" <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks John. I looked through that site. I already metered the start and
> run leads and they look OK. This one does not have a start capacitor but
> it does have a 2 part run and fan capacitor. That metered OK BUT it really
> is impossible to tell if it has changed value. So before I go about
> replacing the compressor or the entire condenser unit I'm thinking about
> throwing a new $20.00 capacitor at it.
>
> I have a lot of experience on auto AC systems but not on house AC systems,
> so I have a lot of questions.
>
> I'm thinking the compressor is jammed but I need to prove it to my self
> before I go about replacing it or the entire outside condenser/ compressor
> unit.
>
> 1. Can I remove the condenser unit and replace it with another brand of
> similar specs with out changing the A coil and the orifice?
>
> 2. Can I replace the condenser unit with a slightly larger one (21,800
> BTU to 24,000 BTU) without changing anything at the furnace mounted A-coil?
>
> 3. Can I switch Condenser unit types from the current R-22 to the R410a
> type without making any changes at the A-coil?
>
> I'm still working on how to cheaply recover the 5 pounds or so of R-22
> from the existing system before I take anything apart.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215860 is a reply to message #215850] |
Sat, 27 July 2013 03:47 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Fri, 26 July 2013 23:46 |
Ken,
I did it once to R-12: Connect a recovery tank to the suction line through
your gauge set. Put the tank in a big tub of ice and water (or,
preferably, dry ice and alcohol). A percentage of the Freon will migrate
to the cold tank, dependent upon the temperature difference.
Cheaper than building a pumped system for occasional use. Weigh the tank
before and after so you know how much you've recovered.
KenH
|
What a neat idea. Thanks to both you and Emery.
Now I need to find a source for dry ice. I found a cheap source in near Indianapolis, Indiana for a new one. The problem I now have is they require a CFC card to purchase it. I'm putting out feelers locally now for anyone I know that has one. I hate to have to go take a test just to buy one. I took one years ago for automotive but it is a different test.
The automotive one turned out to be absolutely useless and I have not seen it in years.
Thanks again.
Ken
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215865 is a reply to message #215860] |
Sat, 27 July 2013 06:43 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I have bought dry ice from Wal-mart, the only draw back was they limited
the amount I could buy.
> Now I need to find a source for dry ice. I found a cheap source in near
> Indianapolis, Indiana for a new one. The problem I now have is they
> require a CFC card to purchase it. I'm putting out feelers locally now for
> anyone I know that has one. I hate to have to go take a test just to buy
> one. I took one years ago for automotive but it is a different test.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215866 is a reply to message #215862] |
Sat, 27 July 2013 06:50 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Duracool R-22a is around $200 and only available in 30 pound containers. There are several other propane based refrigerants out there there that are cheaper but only available in 30 pound containers. I need less than 5 pounds.
I'm trying to salvage the stuff I already have and reuse it rather than vent it off which is also illegal.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] R-22 refrigerant [message #215871 is a reply to message #215860] |
Sat, 27 July 2013 09:01 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Burton wrote on Sat, 27 July 2013 03:47 |
...The problem I now have is they require a CFC card to purchase it. ...
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Ken, you can get a CFC card online. I took the test quite a few years ago just so I could buy freon and it only took a couple hours.
Google "CFC online".
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: R-22 refrigerant [message #215938 is a reply to message #215619] |
Sun, 28 July 2013 00:31 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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You have gotten some usefull suggestions. Check the capacitor with an analog ohm meter it should move upscale on a high range then reverse the leads it should go negative then start going up again .if this checks out the capacitor is ok. You have made sure the capiacitor and compressor are not shorted right? I know you checked the contractor and connections ? Look on the compressor it should show the lra ( locked rotor amps) if it is drawing more then this it it probably has a shorted winding. If it is at locked rotor it could possibly be re started with a hard start kit this kit gets wired parallel to the run capacitor and is worth trying . If you can't get it un stuck you will need a new compressor or condenser unit.You sure don't want to save the R22 it the windings have a short as the acid in the system will ruin a new compressor in short order. If you need to replace the compressor you should install new refrigerant,a suction line dryer and liquid line dryer to clean the system. I would try to find R22 on eBay or craiglist. I used to add acid away to the system when I had a bad winding in the old compressor. I would use the same BTU rated compressor if you are not replacing the evap unit. Good luck hope you can get it unstuck a hard start kit will sometimes do wonders for many more years.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
[Updated on: Sun, 28 July 2013 00:36] Report message to a moderator |
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