Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter
| [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213705] |
Mon, 08 July 2013 12:48  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I just went to reassemble the oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter. I took the seal out of the oil filter I removed and put it
in the groove in the oil cooler adapter as per conventional practice. I noted that the seal completely fills the groove in the oil
cooler adapter and extends above the metal by about 0.050. AFAIK this is not right.
I measured the groove for an O-ring and the dimensions are:
OD = 2.804
ID = 2.442
CS = 0.181
D = 0.120
Anybody know how to calculate the correct size O-ring to go into this groove?
Regards,
Rob M.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213719 is a reply to message #213705] |
Mon, 08 July 2013 14:37  |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Rob:
That amount of protrusion is about correct. You will see the same amount with the ring on the oil filter. (Maybe even more) Its a very pliable ring and the crush helps to seal the two surfaces.
The engine portion is the stock oil filter mount and the top of the oil cooler adaptor emulates the oil filter.
Just a reminder that when you tighten the big bolt, you do the same as a filter: "Slightly Snug and then 1/4 turn". THAT'S ALL
Have a great day
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213728 is a reply to message #213705] |
Mon, 08 July 2013 17:56 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Richard:
If you torque that big bolt to 55 ft lbs it will possibly break the flange of the oil filter mount. I did this last winter. (I'll upload a picture this evening). Should have used better judgement when my gut was telling me to stop far before the torque wrench hit 55. Because the Gasget is so thick it needs to be installed in the same way as an oil filter. Just enough to compress the sealing ring. You will probably find that much more than a dozen or so foot Lbs are all that is necisary. ( This will help avoid the extension coming out when removing the filter) I'm sorry I do not have a number here, but I have cracked that unit by being too forceful!! We are not trying to hold a wheel on here. Simply trying to seal the connection.
General instructions for filters is to just contact the Gasget and then 2/3 or so turns more. When I say slightly snug then only 1/4, I suspect it's about the same result. Just what I used to do regularly. Kept the leaks away and allowed for removal of the filter.
If the extension comes out with the filter, it's Ok because it's also a good time to change the Gasget again anyway.
Best regards
John
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213729 is a reply to message #213728] |
Mon, 08 July 2013 18:16 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Senior Member |
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Okay, John, thanks. I just torqued that puppy up last week when I was installing SS cooler lines. I'm _really_ hoping I'm not going to find a crack when I go out there now to back it off. Wish me luck!
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213734 is a reply to message #213705] |
Mon, 08 July 2013 19:39 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Recommendation: Don't fix what ain't Broke.
If you have no problem now I would leave it. The next time you change that Gasget, is the time to re- evaluate what I'm suggesting.
Lets face it. It's Just What I Did. ( JWID)
Have good trips!!!
John
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213748 is a reply to message #213705] |
Mon, 08 July 2013 21:27 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
In answer to your question...no. But if you are using the rubber ring from a Wix filter, it will be WAY too thick. The recommendation I have always heard (and it worked for me) is to use the rubber ring from a standard Fram filter, and throw the filter away. If you look at the Fram filter ring, and compare it to the Wix ring, you will see why. If you use a Fram ring, I believe it will be safe to torque the big nut on the adapter to the 55 Ft Lbs as specified in the MM.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213761 is a reply to message #213705] |
Tue, 09 July 2013 01:37 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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I posted the Oil Filter and Cooler Line Work I did last year as promised. I have not entered any descriptions, but will in he next while.
Here is a link to the Folder
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6408-oil-filter-and-cooler.html
I wanted to make sure the cooler lines hugged the block to keep them away from the new headers. I bent them and rotated the cooler adaptor. When I torqued the Oil Cooler adapter to the Oil Filter Base to 55 Ft Lbs, it cracked the base flange. There is nothing worse than hearing that Crick sound as the aluminum cracked. I should have listened to my gut as I was tightening it and stopped at a much lower torque. Thanks to Dick Patterson I was able to get a replacement. (Whew!!!) If you look at the flat surface of the oil filter base flange and how thin it is, you can see why it might crack. The Oil cooler adaptor Gasget is a square profile that crushes to seal. Softer ones don't need much torque. (Same as a filter)
By the way My Cooler Adapter does not leak.
Just What I Did.
Best Regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213783 is a reply to message #213705] |
Tue, 09 July 2013 10:09 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Hi All:
I like good discussions!! In that spirit, I would like to post a PM discussion that also came to me. (I'm keeping the originator nameless to ptotect his identity  ) The anwer I gave him is also part of this discussion and bears repeating.
I think the meat of that discussion is useful to all. (All in the name of it's educational value (Right Larry?)(We were both Tech Ed teachers) Thanks for the responses!!!
He wrote:
| Quote: |
John – You wrote:
“Recommendation: Don't fix what ain't Broke...”
Here is what I sent to XXXXXXX yesterday by PM:
“You could substitute a seal of round cross-section but why fix something that isn’t broken?”
Great minds thinking alike? Two minds in the same rut? I dunno which but the advice is good. I found round cross-section O-rings that fit the groove but never installed one, the original square cross-section O-ring design has served well for a long time.
BTW, you recommended oiling the seal but as there is no relative motion between the adapter and the base it does not seem necessary. On the filter it makes sense as there is relative motion when tightening it, the adapter is keyed in place and cannot turn. I am interested in your reason(s) if you care to share. I don’t recall whether I have lubed the ones that I have installed on mine and other coaches, really can’t hurt anything I suppose and I may have done it from habit.
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I answered him as follows:
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Great Minds do think alike!!
That Oil filter adaptor was designed for a square cross section Gasget because it emulates a spin on oil filter. The filter mount is flat because it is not any different from a non-Oil cooler model. If it was designed for a round cross section O-Ring, there would be round grooves to lock the O-Ring in Place. That doesn't mean that a round cross section would not seal. A round O-Ring with the right dimentions, and enough crush would seal as well.
A Square cross section Ring that is thicker than the one put in by the factory would not need the torque and crush to create the seal.
Your right that the adaptor does not move. however, a slight film of oil will keep the gasget from bonding to the surfaces, thus allowing for easier removal and changing. It can really be stickey. The heat does break down the neoprene, and changing the gasget is a good idea every few years or once a decade at least. However, if it is not leaking, then playing with it can only create a situation where a leak can start. Hence why fix something that is not broken.
For the same reasons, the oil on the spin on filter is not for spinning it on, it is to help spin it off after the filter has been there a while. A filter put on dry can almost be impossible to remove once that gasget sticks to the filter mount. Anytime I've run into a dry filter gasget, I use my belt type remover that will literally crush the filter and lock on. Usually it will eventually come off. If not, I've even had to chisel the remaining base off because of such sticking. ( not very many times however) Seems to me a good reason to put a little oil on the adaptor gasget too, but if not, no real problem right??
Does this make sense?
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John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213789 is a reply to message #213705] |
Tue, 09 July 2013 10:53 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Larry:
Good Points and I think that the dry gasket does help stop the extrusion (squeezing out) and distortion of the gasket. However I think the reason there is so much extrusion and distortion is from over tightening the joint. I say this the same way that Valve cover gaskets, Oil Pan gaskets, and transmission gaskets will squeeze out from the joint interface and leak when over torqued.
When you see the flat surface of the oil filter mount, you can see there is no way the gasket is bound, or limited from moving.
The limiting ridges are only in the oil filter adaptor. Therefore over torquing can only cause gasket extrusion.
In this picture you can see that the gasket is held in place by the ridges in the oil cooler adaptor. (cracked oil filter mount at 4:00 position from over torquing.
Many modern valve train gaskets are softer more flexible materials and now come with spacers built into the bolt holes so that over torquing will not extrude the material, and only allow for the designed crush. This helps keep leaks and other problems to a minimum. In the same manner, a home made silicone (tube) gasket should be put on very loose to allow for vulcanizing and then small amounts of torque to finish. (End rails of the intake manifold have no torque on them, just the silicone filling the space.
The only reason I recommend a film of oil is simply to avoid bonding of the gasket to the surfaces. (makes changing it easier)
This also applies to the spin on oil filter. The oil is NOT to help get the oil filter on.(That's easy to over tighten just by hand. The Oil is to help get the spin-on filter OFF. (because of the bonding issues)
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Seal between oil filter adapter and oil cooler adapter [message #213803 is a reply to message #213705] |
Tue, 09 July 2013 12:38 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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OK, So why do I sound so out of line here??
I'm in the shop, thinking this out. ( working on a macerator installation)
The thicker Wix Gasket has allowed me to install the oil filter adaptor quite successfully with less torque because it requires less torque for the required crush. (My experience taking over) However: with a thinner gasket the oil cooler and extension actually must bottom out on the oil filter mount. (But where?) Therefore once the joining parts are tight the space taken up by the gasket is appropriate for the proper crush. Hmmmm?
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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What do you figure hand tight plus 1/4 turn on the big bolt equates to in ft/lbs?
The Fram Filter was all that Canadian Tire had in stock and I needed something to put there while I was working on the engine. I now have the right size gasget O-Ring for the Cooler adaptor. 
