Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209060 is a reply to message #209059] |
Tue, 28 May 2013 17:24   |
RicksGMC
Messages: 145
Registered: May 2012
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I ordered my first test kit from Blackstone, I figure since I'm getting the new engine back this week that I should get a baseline analysis.
Question to those of you that get these tests done, what testing interval do you suggest?
Rick
Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert
On May 28, 2013, at 5:09 PM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
> Thought maybe I should pull this out to its own subject.
> Blackstone sure is fast:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p49230-blackstone.html
>
> I suspect the elevated silicone is because I blocked the
> intake crossovers at the start of this oil change so used
> rtv on the gaskets.
>
> I don't know what the typical 1-quart you can't get out does
> to the test results. Looks like lead, aluminum, and copper
> are all high, but are they high enough I should just pull
> the engine, or keep trying to find the knock?
>
> Comments appreciated.
>
> thanks
> Karen
> 1973 23'
> 1975 26'
>
>
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Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209062 is a reply to message #209059] |
Tue, 28 May 2013 17:31 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Karen, To my way of thinking, copper and aluminum are the two metals that
SHOULD NOT be present in oil with few miles on it. Aluminum in an Olds
engine comes from two places. The back side of the rocker arm hold downs,
and the pistons. The copper comes from only one place, the bearing shells
next to the steel backing. None of these places are good to have high wear
present. It is fairly easy to check the rocker arm hold downs. The pistons
and cylinders can be checked with a lighted borescope through the sparkplug
holes. Bearings, well you know the drill here. Remove the engine,
disassemble and inspect. Not good news.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On May 28, 2013 3:10 PM, "KB" <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
> Thought maybe I should pull this out to its own subject.
> Blackstone sure is fast:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p49230-blackstone.html
>
> I suspect the elevated silicone is because I blocked the
> intake crossovers at the start of this oil change so used
> rtv on the gaskets.
>
> I don't know what the typical 1-quart you can't get out does
> to the test results. Looks like lead, aluminum, and copper
> are all high, but are they high enough I should just pull
> the engine, or keep trying to find the knock?
>
> Comments appreciated.
>
> thanks
> Karen
> 1973 23'
> 1975 26'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209079 is a reply to message #209059] |
Tue, 28 May 2013 21:48 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
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Karen,
Please tell us what type of oil you are using -- I see high molydenum.
And perhaps you should expand on your project of blocking the exhaust crossover -- what type of block off plates and gaskets did you install? was there a large build up of burned oil on the bottom of the intake? did you pull the valve covers? did you have the distributor out? add any new parts? anything special or different you may have done.
Maybe this will make you or someone on the forum think of something to check for the noise. I find a new issue is often related to something I did most recently.
Dennis
| KB wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 17:09 |
Thought maybe I should pull this out to its own subject.
Blackstone sure is fast:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p49230-blackstone.html
I suspect the elevated silicone is because I blocked the
intake crossovers at the start of this oil change so used
rtv on the gaskets.
I don't know what the typical 1-quart you can't get out does
to the test results. Looks like lead, aluminum, and copper
are all high, but are they high enough I should just pull
the engine, or keep trying to find the knock?
Comments appreciated.
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209118 is a reply to message #209059] |
Wed, 29 May 2013 08:30 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| KB wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 18:09 |
Thought maybe I should pull this out to its own subject.
Blackstone sure is fast:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p49230-blackstone.html
I suspect the elevated silicone is because I blocked the intake crossovers at the start of this oil change so used rtv on the gaskets.
I don't know what the typical 1-quart you can't get out does to the test results. Looks like lead, aluminum, and copper are all high, but are they high enough I should just pull the engine, or keep trying to find the knock?
Comments appreciated.
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen,
Silicon in an old engine is either from RTV or Coolant leakage and the later is not reported.
The metals are worrisome indeed....
I have never know an engine knock to get better with running. While it can be worthwhile to try to locate a knock that might be external, don't let it charm you into letting it go. As big a PITA as it is to get inside a GMC engine, I hate to tell you that I believe that this may be one of your better choices.
You could be lucky (like Kerry may be) and catch it before any expensive parts get hurt.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209165 is a reply to message #209059] |
Wed, 29 May 2013 15:51 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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> Please tell us what type of oil you are using -- I see high molydenum.
>
> And perhaps you should expand on your project of blocking the exhaust crossover -- what type of block off plates and gaskets did you install? was there a large build up of burned oil on the bottom of the intake? did you pull the valve covers? did you have the distributor out? add any new parts? anything special or different you may have done.
Oil was Royal Purple 10w-30 plus Rislone. As I understand it, moly is
a common additive in oil. I used Dick P's block-off plates/gaskets and followed
his instructions (and was really glad to see no coolant in the oil test).
Replaced left valve cover gasket at the same time to try and fix a leak.
This was all done at the beginning of that oil change (1756 miles ago)
which I did specifically because I had the manifold off (ie, was worried
about potential antifreeze contamination). There was some burned
crud, but not that bad since the engine had been rebuilt not long before.
I didn't change the filter at that time, so there would have been
leftover oil in there. The distributor was out so we could pull the manifold,
but it all ran well until this last trip.
I thought this guy's page on diagnosis was interesting:
http://remanufactured.com/Engine_Diagnosis_101.htm
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209176 is a reply to message #209165] |
Wed, 29 May 2013 16:58 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Karen
One search for oil analysis stated Rislone would result in high copper readings.
Might be a question for Blackstone.
Dennis
| KB wrote on Wed, 29 May 2013 15:51 |
> Please tell us what type of oil you are using -- I see high molydenum.
>
> And perhaps you should expand on your project of blocking the exhaust crossover -- what type of block off plates and gaskets did you install? was there a large build up of burned oil on the bottom of the intake? did you pull the valve covers? did you have the distributor out? add any new parts? anything special or different you may have done.
Oil was Royal Purple 10w-30 plus Rislone. As I understand it, moly is
a common additive in oil. I used Dick P's block-off plates/gaskets and followed
his instructions (and was really glad to see no coolant in the oil test).
Replaced left valve cover gasket at the same time to try and fix a leak.
This was all done at the beginning of that oil change (1756 miles ago)
which I did specifically because I had the manifold off (ie, was worried
about potential antifreeze contamination). There was some burned
crud, but not that bad since the engine had been rebuilt not long before.
I didn't change the filter at that time, so there would have been
leftover oil in there. The distributor was out so we could pull the manifold,
but it all ran well until this last trip.
I thought this guy's page on diagnosis was interesting:
http://remanufactured.com/Engine_Diagnosis_101.htm
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209223 is a reply to message #209191] |
Wed, 29 May 2013 22:13 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Karen,
Here is one "how to read an oil analysis" that seems straight forward.
http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?ABC's%20of%20Oil%20Analysis
Anyway, knowing the oil you used, the additive Rislone and the work you did at the time suggests to me that the knock you hear may not be associated with any of the results of the oil analysis. The various high reading in your used oil have several potential sources.
I will be eager to see how you progress in your analysis.
Dennis
| KB wrote on Wed, 29 May 2013 18:03 |
> One search for oil analysis stated Rislone would result in high copper readings.
thanks, didn't even think to look at that. Good find.
I think the most worrying number is the aluminum, but
we'll see when I get a chance to dig into it more.
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #209227 is a reply to message #209059] |
Wed, 29 May 2013 23:40 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| KB wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 15:09 |
Thought maybe I should pull this out to its own subject.
Blackstone sure is fast:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p49230-blackstone.html
I suspect the elevated silicone is because I blocked the
intake crossovers at the start of this oil change so used
rtv on the gaskets.
I don't know what the typical 1-quart you can't get out does
to the test results. Looks like lead, aluminum, and copper
are all high, but are they high enough I should just pull
the engine, or keep trying to find the knock?
Comments appreciated.
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
|
Karen,
Someone said, perhaps earlier in the other discussion, that a loose flex plate to crank or flex plate to torque converter can knock and rattle. Unfortunately I don't know how to check the torque converter and the flex plate could only be checked with the trans down.
I don't know when these other problems display themselves, although I had a loose flywheel on my '50 Chevy as a kid and it hammered like crazy. Hard pull made it stop but decelleration was awful. It was not an automatic.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #211158 is a reply to message #209059] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 12:41 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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> Any progress Karen?
> --
only in the stuff it's not. It's not the torque converter bolts.
It's not the rocker arm hold downs. I did a compression test and
found all at 155-160 except number 7 which was at 139. Oil pressure
is still good, so it may (hopefully?) not be a rod bearing (or maybe
just not worn enough yet to affect oil pressure). Thought it could
maybe be ping (though why so suddenly could the knock sensor
not retard enough to control it?) Made some different EFI/EBL
bins to try with spark retarded in the problem knock areas.
Got a cheap bore scope from amazon which fits in the spark plug holes
and works fairly well for the money:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ROP3FO/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Saw a fair amount of crud inside. Tried a seafoam treatment,
which did approximately squat. Ordered some mercury marine
engine tune/cleaner which is hopefully more effective (though since
it's still sold in California, may not be). Also ordered
a leakdown tester for more definitive tests (should get here today).
I pulled the passenger side exhaust manifold and found
evidence of leaks at the bottom, so it could be exhaust leaks,
maybe worsened by the WOT part of the journey? The remflex gaskets
didn't appear to seal very well at the bottom, probably because the
head side is pretty corroded.
The hardest problem is that we live near the top of a big
scary hill, so driving it (which is the only way to get
it to make "the noise") is difficult. There's the risk
that we may not be able to get it back up the hill.
(so now we have coachnet towing insurance...)
We'll get there... eventually.
thanks,
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #211167 is a reply to message #211158] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 15:42 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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| KB wrote on Sat, 15 June 2013 10:41 |
> Any progress Karen?
> --
only in the stuff it's not. It's not the torque converter bolts.
It's not the rocker arm hold downs. I did a compression test and
found all at 155-160 except number 7 which was at 139. Oil pressure
is still good, so it may (hopefully?) not be a rod bearing (or maybe
just not worn enough yet to affect oil pressure). Thought it could
maybe be ping (though why so suddenly could the knock sensor
not retard enough to control it?) Made some different EFI/EBL
bins to try with spark retarded in the problem knock areas.
Got a cheap bore scope from amazon which fits in the spark plug holes
and works fairly well for the money:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ROP3FO/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Saw a fair amount of crud inside. Tried a seafoam treatment,
which did approximately squat. Ordered some mercury marine
engine tune/cleaner which is hopefully more effective (though since
it's still sold in California, may not be). Also ordered
a leakdown tester for more definitive tests (should get here today).
I pulled the passenger side exhaust manifold and found
evidence of leaks at the bottom, so it could be exhaust leaks,
maybe worsened by the WOT part of the journey? The remflex gaskets
didn't appear to seal very well at the bottom, probably because the
head side is pretty corroded.
The hardest problem is that we live near the top of a big
scary hill, so driving it (which is the only way to get
it to make "the noise") is difficult. There's the risk
that we may not be able to get it back up the hill.
(so now we have coachnet towing insurance...)
We'll get there... eventually.
thanks,
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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. The scary part was your first observation you said you found metal flakes in the oil and the oil filter. To me that crys out bearings? Number 7&8 rod bearings seem to go first. I hope that isn't the case so Karen I wish you luck and hope you find an easier fix.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #211172 is a reply to message #209059] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 17:10 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> The scary part was your first observation you said you found metal flakes in the oil and the oil filter. To me that crys out bearings? Number 7&8 rod bearings seem to go first. I hope that isn't the case so Karen I wish you luck and hope you find an easier fix.
yup, but... the oil pressure is still good (for now anyway)
and it went several hundred miles making the intermittent noise.
As I understand it, rod bearing failures usually get worse and
become constant a lot faster than that (keyword "usually"...)
So, trying to rule out everything I can think of before
pulling the engine (which I'm really not looking forward to...).
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #211196 is a reply to message #211172] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 20:51 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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| KB wrote on Sat, 15 June 2013 15:10 |
> The scary part was your first observation you said you found metal flakes in the oil and the oil filter. To me that crys out bearings? Number 7&8 rod bearings seem to go first. I hope that isn't the case so Karen I wish you luck and hope you find an easier fix.
yup, but... the oil pressure is still good (for now anyway)
and it went several hundred miles making the intermittent noise.
As I understand it, rod bearing failures usually get worse and
become constant a lot faster than that (keyword "usually"...)
So, trying to rule out everything I can think of before
pulling the engine (which I'm really not looking forward to...).
thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen,
I WAS going to mention the fact that a rod knock will sometimes not make any noise when the oil is cold and thick. I remember Dan G saying that, when he started the coach to drive it onto the lodal, after it had cooled down, the knock was gone.
But, If you had driven it several hundred miles and the knock didn't get any worse, it doesn't sound like a rod knock. As you stated, a rod knock is consistent and gets progressively worse. The exhaust leak you found just might be the culprit here. I'm guessing that is all it is.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
[Updated on: Sat, 15 June 2013 21:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] blackstone oil analysis results [message #211258 is a reply to message #211196] |
Sun, 16 June 2013 11:13 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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The knock in The Pig only made itself known when warm. It would take a short drive to get it to rear its ugly head.
And the sob that sold me the coach knew. Fool me once......
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
On Jun 15, 2013, at 6:51 PM, Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> KB wrote on Sat, 15 June 2013 15:10
>>> The scary part was your first observation you said you found metal flakes in the oil and the oil filter. To me that crys out bearings? Number 7&8 rod bearings seem to go first. I hope that isn't the case so Karen I wish you luck and hope you find an easier fix.
>>
>>
>> yup, but... the oil pressure is still good (for now anyway)
>> and it went several hundred miles making the intermittent noise.
>> As I understand it, rod bearing failures usually get worse and
>> become constant a lot faster than that (keyword "usually"...)
>>
>> So, trying to rule out everything I can think of before
>> pulling the engine (which I'm really not looking forward to...).
>>
>> thanks
>> Karen
>> 1973 23'
>> 1975 26'
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
> Karen,
>
> I WAS going to mention the fact that a rod knock will sometimes not make any noise when the oil is cold and thick. I remember Dan G saying that, when he started the coach to drive it onto the lodal, after it had cooled down, the knock was gone.
>
> But, If you had driven it several thousand miles and the knock didn't get any worse, it doesn't sound like a rod knock. As you stated, a rod knock is consistent and gets progressively worse. The exhaust leak you found just might be the culprit here. I'm guessing that is all it is.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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