Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208155 is a reply to message #208150] |
Sat, 18 May 2013 07:14   |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
Thanks for your help. Yesterday I put my breaker bar on the 3/8 bolts with red loctite and was able to loosen them. Actually without too much effort considering that the loctite instructions said that heat or special tools were required. I'll get some fresh bolts and green loctite then follow your instructions below.
No one has mentioned that the upper ball joints need any special consideration so I'll use blue loctite and install per the MM instructions.
JP
>________________________________
> From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:59 AM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
>
>
>JP,
>G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with the
>MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use loctite
>green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30 ft
>lbs. No loctite necessary.
>Steve F.
>
>
>On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On replacing my lower ball joints (with MOOGs) I installed the 3/8" bolts
>> with Red loctite and torqued to 35 ft-lbs. The manual requires 25 ft-lbs
>> for the original 5/16 bolts. I torqued the top nut to 45 ft-lbs and staked
>> as the manual states. Now I read an old thread that claims one risks
>> damage if the top nut is torqued over 30 ft-lbs. It also states to torque
>> the 3/8" bolts to 60-65 ft-lbs. This seems a bit high for a grade 8 - 3/8"
>> bolt.
>>
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/gmcnet-archive/ball$20joint$20torque|sort:relevance/gmcnet-archive/yh79zDudG6Q/hyw9-00wVwQJ
>>
>>
>> Can anyone describe what damage occurs if the top nut is torqued beyond 30
>> ft-lbs?
>>
>> Should I break the 3/8" loctited bolts and replace using 60-65 ft-lbs
>> torque?
>>
>> Any special hints on installing the upper ball joints.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> JP
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Take care,
>Steve
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
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>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208253 is a reply to message #208155] |
Sun, 19 May 2013 08:17 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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No problem using loctite on the upper fasteners. Those supplied 5/16 bolts
will snap at 35 ft lbs of torque.
Steve
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 5:14 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for your help. Yesterday I put my breaker bar on the 3/8 bolts
> with red loctite and was able to loosen them. Actually without too much
> effort considering that the loctite instructions said that heat or special
> tools were required. I'll get some fresh bolts and green loctite then
> follow your instructions below.
>
> No one has mentioned that the upper ball joints need any special
> consideration so I'll use blue loctite and install per the MM instructions.
>
> JP
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> >To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:59 AM
> >Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
> >
> >
> >JP,
> >G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with the
> >MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use loctite
> >green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30 ft
> >lbs. No loctite necessary.
> >Steve F.
> >
> >
> >On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On replacing my lower ball joints (with MOOGs) I installed the 3/8"
> bolts
> >> with Red loctite and torqued to 35 ft-lbs. The manual requires 25
> ft-lbs
> >> for the original 5/16 bolts. I torqued the top nut to 45 ft-lbs and
> staked
> >> as the manual states. Now I read an old thread that claims one risks
> >> damage if the top nut is torqued over 30 ft-lbs. It also states to
> torque
> >> the 3/8" bolts to 60-65 ft-lbs. This seems a bit high for a grade 8 -
> 3/8"
> >> bolt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/gmcnet-archive/ball$20joint$20torque|sort:relevance/gmcnet-archive/yh79zDudG6Q/hyw9-00wVwQJ
> >>
> >>
> >> Can anyone describe what damage occurs if the top nut is torqued beyond
> 30
> >> ft-lbs?
> >>
> >> Should I break the 3/8" loctited bolts and replace using 60-65 ft-lbs
> >> torque?
> >>
> >> Any special hints on installing the upper ball joints.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> JP
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Take care,
> >Steve
> >_______________________________________________
> >GMCnet mailing list
> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208255 is a reply to message #208166] |
Sun, 19 May 2013 08:21 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I have seldom seen anything other than what you describe Rob. I don't know
what causes that gap, but I can imagine shock and stress have some play in
this. When you torque the 3/8 fasteners, notice that you literally crush
the tip around the ears of the ball joint. By the time you get to the 60
ft lbs reading, there is absolutely no way that ball joint could ever shift
in that socket. Loctite is the coupe de grasse! I probably used green
because I had it. With lock washers on the bolts, it was probably
overkill/belt and suspenders.
Steve
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Below I have provided links to various Locktite colors:
>
> Green:
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
>
> Blue:
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
>
> Red:
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
>
> Blue and red are meant for use before the nut / bolt are assembled and red
> is the "toughest."
>
> Green is meant to be used after the nut / bolt are assembled.
>
> Here's a link to a chart showing that Red is the highest strength Locktite.
>
>
> http://henkelna.com/us/content_data/175835_Threadlocking_Selector_Guide_032010.pdf
>
> Why Green I would think Red would be mo betta?
>
> Couple of other points:
>
> When I reworked The Blue Streak's lower control arms under your tutelage I
> noted that when I installed one ball joint there was a
> gap between the control arm and the "tabs" on the ball joint. I used a
> hammer to remove that gap as I had seen photos of ball joints
> with the tabs broken off and thought the gap might cause that.
>
> I used Red Locktite on the top locater nut along with the star washer; I'm
> a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Ferguson
>
> JP,
> G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with the
> MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use loctite
> green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30 ft
> lbs. No loctite necessary.
> Steve F.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208290 is a reply to message #208255] |
Sun, 19 May 2013 11:18 |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks guys for all your help. This is one area where road failure is an unpleasant option to say the least. One question is still bugging me though.
About the 60 ft-lbs torque on the 3/8 bolts. The reinforced A-frame is pretty stiff in this area. How do you know that your not deforming the ears (i.e. applying shear stress) vs. deforming the frame? I suspect that the frame is more malleable than the ears but don't know for sure. If I see a gap, I'll put my calipers on and try to measure any deformation when installing the new bolts.
Since the green loctite is applied post assembly and my a-frames are already installed I'll use the red.
JP
>________________________________
> From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:21 AM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
>
>
>I have seldom seen anything other than what you describe Rob. I don't know
>what causes that gap, but I can imagine shock and stress have some play in
>this. When you torque the 3/8 fasteners, notice that you literally crush
>the tip around the ears of the ball joint. By the time you get to the 60
>ft lbs reading, there is absolutely no way that ball joint could ever shift
>in that socket. Loctite is the coupe de grasse! I probably used green
>because I had it. With lock washers on the bolts, it was probably
>overkill/belt and suspenders.
>Steve
>
>
>On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Below I have provided links to various Locktite colors:
>>
>> Green:
>> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
>>
>> Blue:
>> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
>>
>> Red:
>> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
>>
>> Blue and red are meant for use before the nut / bolt are assembled and red
>> is the "toughest."
>>
>> Green is meant to be used after the nut / bolt are assembled.
>>
>> Here's a link to a chart showing that Red is the highest strength Locktite.
>>
>>
>> http://henkelna.com/us/content_data/175835_Threadlocking_Selector_Guide_032010.pdf
>>
>> Why Green I would think Red would be mo betta?
>>
>> Couple of other points:
>>
>> When I reworked The Blue Streak's lower control arms under your tutelage I
>> noted that when I installed one ball joint there was a
>> gap between the control arm and the "tabs" on the ball joint. I used a
>> hammer to remove that gap as I had seen photos of ball joints
>> with the tabs broken off and thought the gap might cause that.
>>
>> I used Red Locktite on the top locater nut along with the star washer; I'm
>> a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steven Ferguson
>>
>> JP,
>> G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with the
>> MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use loctite
>> green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30 ft
>> lbs. No loctite necessary.
>> Steve F.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Take care,
>Steve
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208309 is a reply to message #208290] |
Sun, 19 May 2013 14:05 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
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|
Jp,
Try to avoid the RED Locktite.
Majority of the time the BLUE does well.
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks guys for all your help. This is one area where road failure is an
> unpleasant option to say the least. One question is still bugging me
> though.
>
> About the 60 ft-lbs torque on the 3/8 bolts. The reinforced A-frame is
> pretty stiff in this area. How do you know that your not deforming the
> ears (i.e. applying shear stress) vs. deforming the frame? I suspect that
> the frame is more malleable than the ears but don't know for sure. If I
> see a gap, I'll put my calipers on and try to measure any deformation when
> installing the new bolts.
>
> Since the green loctite is applied post assembly and my a-frames are
> already installed I'll use the red.
>
>
> JP
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> >To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:21 AM
> >Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
> >
> >
> >I have seldom seen anything other than what you describe Rob. I don't
> know
> >what causes that gap, but I can imagine shock and stress have some play in
> >this. When you torque the 3/8 fasteners, notice that you literally crush
> >the tip around the ears of the ball joint. By the time you get to the 60
> >ft lbs reading, there is absolutely no way that ball joint could ever
> shift
> >in that socket. Loctite is the coupe de grasse! I probably used green
> >because I had it. With lock washers on the bolts, it was probably
> >overkill/belt and suspenders.
> >Steve
> >
> >
> >On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Steve,
> >>
> >> Below I have provided links to various Locktite colors:
> >>
> >> Green:
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
> >>
> >> Blue:
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
> >>
> >> Red:
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
> >>
> >> Blue and red are meant for use before the nut / bolt are assembled and
> red
> >> is the "toughest."
> >>
> >> Green is meant to be used after the nut / bolt are assembled.
> >>
> >> Here's a link to a chart showing that Red is the highest strength
> Locktite.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://henkelna.com/us/content_data/175835_Threadlocking_Selector_Guide_032010.pdf
> >>
> >> Why Green I would think Red would be mo betta?
> >>
> >> Couple of other points:
> >>
> >> When I reworked The Blue Streak's lower control arms under your
> tutelage I
> >> noted that when I installed one ball joint there was a
> >> gap between the control arm and the "tabs" on the ball joint. I used a
> >> hammer to remove that gap as I had seen photos of ball joints
> >> with the tabs broken off and thought the gap might cause that.
> >>
> >> I used Red Locktite on the top locater nut along with the star washer;
> I'm
> >> a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Rob M.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Steven Ferguson
> >>
> >> JP,
> >> G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with
> the
> >> MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use
> loctite
> >> green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30
> ft
> >> lbs. No loctite necessary.
> >> Steve F.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Take care,
> >Steve
> >_______________________________________________
> >GMCnet mailing list
> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208375 is a reply to message #208313] |
Mon, 20 May 2013 08:24 |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
First it was red, then it was green & now it's blue. I'm glad there are only three primary colors. Simple things can get pretty complicated if one spends enough time thinking about them. My plan is to do it right the first time. LOL. Any of them should work but I'll use red. In the event that my "do it right" plan fails and I have to remove a lower ball joint my first strategy will be to use a breaker bar with an impact socket and one of three things will happen. 1. The nut will loosen or 2. the bolt will break or 3. the wrench on the nut will break. If number 3 occurs, plan B is the cutoff tool and cold chisel. No offense to Loctite recommendations (as if they care) but I tend to avoid torches so that is my last resort.
Once again I appreciate all the input from everybody. Without the internet & GMCnet this project would not be feasible for me.
JP
>________________________________
> From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 4:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
>
>
>Jim,
>
>Sorry but I'm going to disagree; below you will find Locktite's recommendations.
>
>Loctite® Threadlocker Blue 242® is designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners which require normal disassembly with
>standard hand tools. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads
>from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. Loctite® Threadlocker Blue 242® is particularly suited for
>applications on less active substrates such as stainless steel and plated surfaces, where disassembly is required for servicing.
>
>Loctite® Threadlocker Red 271™ is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when
>confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents
>loosening from shock and vibration. It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500°F (260°C).
>
>The only time the 3/8" bolts will need to be removed is when the ball joint needs to be replaced and at that point in time hitting
>it with 500°F doesn't matter, it’s SHOT!
>
>Regards,
>Rob M.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Kanomata
>
>Jp,
>Try to avoid the RED Locktite.
>Majority of the time the BLUE does well.
>
>Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208379 is a reply to message #208061] |
Mon, 20 May 2013 08:58 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
According to Dave Lenzi the big thing is a perfect dry fit on the lower pre final bolting. The contact patch circle has to match the new joint. The location of the ear holes has to be dimenionally correct. The arm needs to be massaged to match. He showed slides of shop presses and jigs to get those dimmenions right on. Other wise the joint can rock and walow and loading on ears from missfit can cause cracking.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208451 is a reply to message #208290] |
Tue, 21 May 2013 08:43 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
JP, I can tell just by watching while I apply the torque. The BJ is a
forging and it's not too likely to bend under that small amount of torque.
Trust me, you will not break one.
Steve F.
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks guys for all your help. This is one area where road failure is an
> unpleasant option to say the least. One question is still bugging me
> though.
>
> About the 60 ft-lbs torque on the 3/8 bolts. The reinforced A-frame is
> pretty stiff in this area. How do you know that your not deforming the
> ears (i.e. applying shear stress) vs. deforming the frame? I suspect that
> the frame is more malleable than the ears but don't know for sure. If I
> see a gap, I'll put my calipers on and try to measure any deformation when
> installing the new bolts.
>
> Since the green loctite is applied post assembly and my a-frames are
> already installed I'll use the red.
>
>
> JP
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> >To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:21 AM
> >Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
> >
> >
> >I have seldom seen anything other than what you describe Rob. I don't
> know
> >what causes that gap, but I can imagine shock and stress have some play in
> >this. When you torque the 3/8 fasteners, notice that you literally crush
> >the tip around the ears of the ball joint. By the time you get to the 60
> >ft lbs reading, there is absolutely no way that ball joint could ever
> shift
> >in that socket. Loctite is the coupe de grasse! I probably used green
> >because I had it. With lock washers on the bolts, it was probably
> >overkill/belt and suspenders.
> >Steve
> >
> >
> >On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Steve,
> >>
> >> Below I have provided links to various Locktite colors:
> >>
> >> Green:
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
> >>
> >> Blue:
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
> >>
> >> Red:
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
> >>
> >> Blue and red are meant for use before the nut / bolt are assembled and
> red
> >> is the "toughest."
> >>
> >> Green is meant to be used after the nut / bolt are assembled.
> >>
> >> Here's a link to a chart showing that Red is the highest strength
> Locktite.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://henkelna.com/us/content_data/175835_Threadlocking_Selector_Guide_032010.pdf
> >>
> >> Why Green I would think Red would be mo betta?
> >>
> >> Couple of other points:
> >>
> >> When I reworked The Blue Streak's lower control arms under your
> tutelage I
> >> noted that when I installed one ball joint there was a
> >> gap between the control arm and the "tabs" on the ball joint. I used a
> >> hammer to remove that gap as I had seen photos of ball joints
> >> with the tabs broken off and thought the gap might cause that.
> >>
> >> I used Red Locktite on the top locater nut along with the star washer;
> I'm
> >> a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Rob M.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Steven Ferguson
> >>
> >> JP,
> >> G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with
> the
> >> MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use
> loctite
> >> green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30
> ft
> >> lbs. No loctite necessary.
> >> Steve F.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Take care,
> >Steve
> >_______________________________________________
> >GMCnet mailing list
> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208454 is a reply to message #208451] |
Tue, 21 May 2013 09:14 |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
Thanks, your experience is invaluable. From my own observation I thought that would be your answer but I lack expertise. After a year learning solid mechanics of rigid bodies and applying Newtons laws in every conceivable way I was told that there is no such thing as a truly "rigid body". With that in mind I asked the question.
JP
>________________________________
> From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:43 AM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
>
>
>JP, I can tell just by watching while I apply the torque. The BJ is a
>forging and it's not too likely to bend under that small amount of torque.
>Trust me, you will not break one.
>Steve F.
>
>
>On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks guys for all your help. This is one area where road failure is an
>> unpleasant option to say the least. One question is still bugging me
>> though.
>>
>> About the 60 ft-lbs torque on the 3/8 bolts. The reinforced A-frame is
>> pretty stiff in this area. How do you know that your not deforming the
>> ears (i.e. applying shear stress) vs. deforming the frame? I suspect that
>> the frame is more malleable than the ears but don't know for sure. If I
>> see a gap, I'll put my calipers on and try to measure any deformation when
>> installing the new bolts.
>>
>> Since the green loctite is applied post assembly and my a-frames are
>> already installed I'll use the red.
>>
>>
>> JP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
>> >To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:21 AM
>> >Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
>> >
>> >
>> >I have seldom seen anything other than what you describe Rob. I don't
>> know
>> >what causes that gap, but I can imagine shock and stress have some play in
>> >this. When you torque the 3/8 fasteners, notice that you literally crush
>> >the tip around the ears of the ball joint. By the time you get to the 60
>> >ft lbs reading, there is absolutely no way that ball joint could ever
>> shift
>> >in that socket. Loctite is the coupe de grasse! I probably used green
>> >because I had it. With lock washers on the bolts, it was probably
>> >overkill/belt and suspenders.
>> >Steve
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> Steve,
>> >>
>> >> Below I have provided links to various Locktite colors:
>> >>
>> >> Green:
>> >>
>> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
>> >>
>> >> Blue:
>> >>
>> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
>> >>
>> >> Red:
>> >>
>> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
>> >>
>> >> Blue and red are meant for use before the nut / bolt are assembled and
>> red
>> >> is the "toughest."
>> >>
>> >> Green is meant to be used after the nut / bolt are assembled.
>> >>
>> >> Here's a link to a chart showing that Red is the highest strength
>> Locktite.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://henkelna.com/us/content_data/175835_Threadlocking_Selector_Guide_032010.pdf
>> >>
>> >> Why Green I would think Red would be mo betta?
>> >>
>> >> Couple of other points:
>> >>
>> >> When I reworked The Blue Streak's lower control arms under your
>> tutelage I
>> >> noted that when I installed one ball joint there was a
>> >> gap between the control arm and the "tabs" on the ball joint. I used a
>> >> hammer to remove that gap as I had seen photos of ball joints
>> >> with the tabs broken off and thought the gap might cause that.
>> >>
>> >> I used Red Locktite on the top locater nut along with the star washer;
>> I'm
>> >> a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Rob M.
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Steven Ferguson
>> >>
>> >> JP,
>> >> G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware with
>> the
>> >> MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use
>> loctite
>> >> green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to 25-30
>> ft
>> >> lbs. No loctite necessary.
>> >> Steve F.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> GMCnet mailing list
>> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Take care,
>> >Steve
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >GMCnet mailing list
>> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Take care,
>Steve
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque [message #208536 is a reply to message #208454] |
Wed, 22 May 2013 07:24 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks. Nice to be able to help someone once in a while.
Steve
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Thanks, your experience is invaluable. From my own observation I thought
> that would be your answer but I lack expertise. After a year learning
> solid mechanics of rigid bodies and applying Newtons laws in every
> conceivable way I was told that there is no such thing as a truly "rigid
> body". With that in mind I asked the question.
>
> JP
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> >To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:43 AM
> >Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
> >
> >
> >JP, I can tell just by watching while I apply the torque. The BJ is a
> >forging and it's not too likely to bend under that small amount of torque.
> >Trust me, you will not break one.
> >Steve F.
> >
> >
> >On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks guys for all your help. This is one area where road failure is
> an
> >> unpleasant option to say the least. One question is still bugging me
> >> though.
> >>
> >> About the 60 ft-lbs torque on the 3/8 bolts. The reinforced A-frame is
> >> pretty stiff in this area. How do you know that your not deforming the
> >> ears (i.e. applying shear stress) vs. deforming the frame? I suspect
> that
> >> the frame is more malleable than the ears but don't know for sure. If I
> >> see a gap, I'll put my calipers on and try to measure any deformation
> when
> >> installing the new bolts.
> >>
> >> Since the green loctite is applied post assembly and my a-frames are
> >> already installed I'll use the red.
> >>
> >>
> >> JP
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >________________________________
> >> > From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> >> >To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >> >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:21 AM
> >> >Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ball Joint Torque
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I have seldom seen anything other than what you describe Rob. I don't
> >> know
> >> >what causes that gap, but I can imagine shock and stress have some
> play in
> >> >this. When you torque the 3/8 fasteners, notice that you literally
> crush
> >> >the tip around the ears of the ball joint. By the time you get to the
> 60
> >> >ft lbs reading, there is absolutely no way that ball joint could ever
> >> shift
> >> >in that socket. Loctite is the coupe de grasse! I probably used green
> >> >because I had it. With lock washers on the bolts, it was probably
> >> >overkill/belt and suspenders.
> >> >Steve
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Steve,
> >> >>
> >> >> Below I have provided links to various Locktite colors:
> >> >>
> >> >> Green:
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> Blue:
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> Red:
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> Blue and red are meant for use before the nut / bolt are assembled
> and
> >> red
> >> >> is the "toughest."
> >> >>
> >> >> Green is meant to be used after the nut / bolt are assembled.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here's a link to a chart showing that Red is the highest strength
> >> Locktite.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> http://henkelna.com/us/content_data/175835_Threadlocking_Selector_Guide_032010.pdf
> >> >>
> >> >> Why Green I would think Red would be mo betta?
> >> >>
> >> >> Couple of other points:
> >> >>
> >> >> When I reworked The Blue Streak's lower control arms under your
> >> tutelage I
> >> >> noted that when I installed one ball joint there was a
> >> >> gap between the control arm and the "tabs" on the ball joint. I used
> a
> >> >> hammer to remove that gap as I had seen photos of ball joints
> >> >> with the tabs broken off and thought the gap might cause that.
> >> >>
> >> >> I used Red Locktite on the top locater nut along with the star
> washer;
> >> I'm
> >> >> a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Rob M.
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Steven Ferguson
> >> >>
> >> >> JP,
> >> >> G8, 3/8 x 24 hardware used to replace the 5/16 supplied hardware
> with
> >> the
> >> >> MOOG ball joints should be tightened to 60 ft lbs of torque. Use
> >> loctite
> >> >> green. 30 ft lbs is not enough. Tighten the top locater bolt to
> 25-30
> >> ft
> >> >> lbs. No loctite necessary.
> >> >> Steve F.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Take care,
> >> >Steve
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >GMCnet mailing list
> >> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Take care,
> >Steve
> >_______________________________________________
> >GMCnet mailing list
> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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