Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot
| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206227] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 12:50  |
UziYaH
Messages: 282
Registered: July 2007
Location: 10-O-C
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While various government agencies have deemed I have an unusual capacity to learn specific disciplines, it was also determined that I was a barely functioning idiot in others. So please bare with me.
My need to know is simple: My GMC motor home can tell me the potential of her (Rocinante's) batteries, at least as I am able to understand her meter. I 'assume' the colors indicate the 'potential' of her batteries. I again 'assume' this is translated as volts. I am having an issue with 'amps'. In my mind, I witness amps as the degree of which 'potential is being realized. Sounds like the begging of the Cosmos to me. I bet there are some real simple terms for all this.
I do have an analog meter that measures in increments other than 12V, like 10 to 50V. The rest I have to guess. The $1.00 hydrometer, made in China, I purchased from Wal-Mart, measures all my batteries the same, dead or alive.
I am in need of a digital device that can measure the potential in my marine battery, used for my C-PAP machine, in case of power failure. It has been used one time in four years, other than testing. I am using a Radio Shack 350W
inverter on a C-PAP machine requiring 1.7A. coupled with a 115 Amp Hour, 160 reserve capacity deep cycle battery.
Budget is a consideration. Might be cheaper to haul it to Wal-Mart for evaluation. I'd just like to be able to do it myself.
All data greatly appreciated. trickstermeister@gmail.com
Howard Nylander
Royale Class of '78' - 'Rocinante'
Greeneville, Tn.
http://www.youtube.com/user/uziyah
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Royale Class of "78" "Rocinate"
E-10-o-C
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206228 is a reply to message #206227] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 13:10  |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Howard,
The most accurate way to monitor you battery usage is with one of these:
http://www.solar-electric.com/tr20mosy.html
Or, something similar. It will tell you the voltage of your batteries, the charge rate in volts, amps, watts, etc, and the state of charge in amps down, or percentage. Not cheap, but the best way to monitor your house battery.
IIf something like this is way over budget, hopefully someone a bit more electrically savvy will help with a cheaper solution.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206235 is a reply to message #206228] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 14:03 |
UziYaH
Messages: 282
Registered: July 2007
Location: 10-O-C
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Thanks Carl. Looks like I can save a lot of money by hauling it to Wal-Mart. Trying to justify that expense with my wife, might be about as difficult as passing bill through Congress. I will keep your post on file for reference. Thanks for responding.
Howard Nylander
________________________________
From: Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot
Howard,
The most accurate way to monitor you battery usage is with one of these:
http://www.solar-electric.com/tr20mosy.html
Or, something similar. It will tell you the voltage of your batteries, the charge rate in volts, amps, watts, etc, and the state of charge in amps down, or percentage. Not cheap, but the best way to monitor your house battery.
IIf something like this is way over budget, hopefully someone a bit more electrically savvy will help with a cheaper solution.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
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Howard Nylander
Royale Class of "78" "Rocinate"
E-10-o-C
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206237 is a reply to message #206235] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 14:29 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Howard,
Don't trust the WalMart tester on the first test.
On 2 different vehicles (one of which was the GMC) it took several tests over a period of weeks to convince the machine operator that the battery was defective so I could get a replacement under the warranty.
To add insult to injury- Mal Wart doesn't service motorhomes- wouldn't even hook up the tester/charger until I removed the battery from the motorhome.
Each of the earlier tests indicated the battery was good. Final test- it failed and I got a replacement battery.
For battery dependent life support systems safest way is start off with a new, proven good battery.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206239 is a reply to message #206237] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 15:06 |
UziYaH
Messages: 282
Registered: July 2007
Location: 10-O-C
Karma: 0
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Gene, thanks for the 'heads up' information. Perhaps I'd be wise to have this battery checked by Interstate, and replaced if necessary. I had good luck running Interstate Batteries in my eighteen wheeler for many years.
I still thinking there must be a hand held, digital ohm type meter, that can let me know the condition of my batteries, at least as much as I am willing to suffer the pain of learning. Sure shudda stood in school. :-)
Howard Nylander
Royale Class of '78' - 'Rocinante'
Greeneville, Tn.
trickstermeister@gmail.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/uziyah
________________________________
From: gene barrow <barrowgene@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot
Howard,
Don't trust the WalMart tester on the first test.
On 2 different vehicles (one of which was the GMC) it took several tests over a period of weeks to convince the machine operator that the battery was defective so I could get a replacement under the warranty.
To add insult to injury- Mal Wart doesn't service motorhomes- wouldn't even hook up the tester/charger until I removed the battery from the motorhome.
Each of the earlier tests indicated the battery was good. Final test- it failed and I got a replacement battery.
For battery dependent life support systems safest way is start off with a new, proven good battery.
--
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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Howard Nylander
Royale Class of "78" "Rocinate"
E-10-o-C
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206240 is a reply to message #206227] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 15:13 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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| UziYaH wrote on Sun, 28 April 2013 12:50 |
...My need to know is simple: My GMC motor home can tell me the potential of her (Rocinante's) batteries, at least as I am able to understand her meter. I 'assume' the colors indicate the 'potential' of her batteries. I again 'assume' this is translated as volts. I am having an issue with 'amps'. In my mind, I witness amps as the degree of which 'potential is being realized. Sounds like the begging of the Cosmos to me. I bet there are some real simple terms for all this. ...
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A battery is analagous to a water storage tank that uses air pressure to push the water out.
Voltage = pressure,
amps = flow (like gallons per minute).
Charging the battery is like pumping water into the tank. As it fills, the voltage/pressure increases until it gets full, then the regulator/pressure switch turns off the flow. If you start drawing electricity/water out, the voltage/pressure is highest and it can squirt more amps/gallons per minute. When it gets closer to empty, the voltage/pressure drops and the amps/gallons per minute slows to a trickle, untii it stops altogether. Usually a water tank doesn't care if it gets emptied completely, but a battery drained too much will be damaged. Voltage is a way of telling how full the battery is just like pressure is an indication of how much water is in a pneumatic tank. As the battery approaches end of life, it is like having a smaller amount of air in the pneumatic water tank. If the air is completely gone, there is nothing to push the water out because water is effectively incompressible. Pressurizing a tank with no air in it just causes the tank to expand, and when you try to get water from it, the tank just contracts. Not much volume change compared to when it had air in it. Apply that to a battery, and call it dead.
The British use the word "flat" to describe a "dead" battery. Like a flat tire. Out of air.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206243 is a reply to message #206227] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 15:56 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Howard,
Mr. Hamilton gave an excellent and analogy to water of how volts and amps work in electrical systems, and is exactly the one I was about to type.
But, it sounds like you want to know if the battery itself is any good. There are sort of 3 different ways of testing batteries. What you want to assess is the storage capacity of the tank, rather than a short term measure of voltage (pressure) or amps, (rate of flow).
1.) is a hydrometer which reads the specific gravity or density of the electrolyte or water/acid mix in the battery. If your hygrometer reads the same on charged or dead batteries, there is something wrong with it. I think the last one I bought was about $5 and worked fairly well, until I gave it away. Differences between cells are at least as critical as the actual reading with a hydrometer.
2.) I'll call it the older traditional way for a car or truck is to put a known load on the battery, and then measure the voltage. A simple version is after the battery is charged, crank the engine for 15 seconds, than read the voltage (while still cranking) and it should be more than about 10.0 volts. In the 70's or 80's or so, Sun equipment made a VAT 20 battery tester that seemed like was in every good corner service station in the world. It put a known load on the battery (maybe 200 amps) to simulate cranking and then measured voltage all automatically.
3.) The more modern method is to use a battery conductance tester that essentially measures the internal resistance of the battery through electrical magic, that I don't really understand. Most car dealerships have a MidTronics 200 or some other version of the Midtronics, because the car manufacturers require that test before they will pay for a new battery under warranty. I drooled over these for years, but they are several hundred dollars. A couple of years ago, I found this one by Solar, which is a cheaper knock-off, and other than being hard to read in sunlight seems to work pretty well.
< http://www.amazon.com/BA5-100-1200-Cranking-Electronic-Battery/dp/B0017R5EQK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1367181305&sr=8-2&keywords=solar+batte ry+tester?>
This is the $40 one, I actually got the $60 one that does some charging tests and other things, but you don't necessarily need to spend the extra $20.
If you just want to test the motorhome and don't own about a dozen or more batteries like I do, I'm almost sure an Autozone or O'Reilly's will have some kind of battery tester (probably the conductance version) and will do it for you for free, in the hopes of being able to sell you a new battery, or at least gain your loyalty. The same reason they will read Check engine light codes on newer vehicles. The one by me seems quite honest and doesn't seem to want to sell you something you don't need, though.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206257 is a reply to message #206243] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 17:39 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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There is a fourth, very accurate way. That is to use a refractometer. You put one drop of battery acid. ( or antifreeze) on the slide and look through the scope and read the specific gravity of the battery acid. This is directly related to the charge. In the case of antifreeze it reads the freeze point.
For antifreeze I also have another instrument called a Darby cold cup. It uses a small CO2 cartridge to actually freeze the sample. This is a lab instrument and its accuracy is not needed for automotive use.
Emery Stora
On Apr 28, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Craig Lechowicz <craig.lechowicz@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Howard,
> Mr. Hamilton gave an excellent and analogy to water of how volts and amps work in electrical systems, and is exactly the one I was about to type.
>
> But, it sounds like you want to know if the battery itself is any good. There are sort of 3 different ways of testing batteries. What you want to assess is the storage capacity of the tank, rather than a short term measure of voltage (pressure) or amps, (rate of flow).
>
> 1.) is a hydrometer which reads the specific gravity or density of the electrolyte or water/acid mix in the battery. If your hygrometer reads the same on charged or dead batteries, there is something wrong with it. I think the last one I bought was about $5 and worked fairly well, until I gave it away. Differences between cells are at least as critical as the actual reading with a hydrometer.
>
> 2.) I'll call it the older traditional way for a car or truck is to put a known load on the battery, and then measure the voltage. A simple version is after the battery is charged, crank the engine for 15 seconds, than read the voltage (while still cranking) and it should be more than about 10.0 volts. In the 70's or 80's or so, Sun equipment made a VAT 20 battery tester that seemed like was in every good corner service station in the world. It put a known load on the battery (maybe 200 amps) to simulate cranking and then measured voltage all automatically.
>
> 3.) The more modern method is to use a battery conductance tester that essentially measures the internal resistance of the battery through electrical magic, that I don't really understand. Most car dealerships have a MidTronics 200 or some other version of the Midtronics, because the car manufacturers require that test before they will pay for a new battery under warranty. I drooled over these for years, but they are several hundred dollars. A couple of years ago, I found this one by Solar, which is a cheaper knock-off, and other than being hard to read in sunlight seems to work pretty well.
>
> < http://www.amazon.com/BA5-100-1200-Cranking-Electronic-Battery/dp/B0017R5EQK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1367181305&sr=8-2&keywords=solar+batte ry+tester?>
>
> This is the $40 one, I actually got the $60 one that does some charging tests and other things, but you don't necessarily need to spend the extra $20.
>
> If you just want to test the motorhome and don't own about a dozen or more batteries like I do, I'm almost sure an Autozone or O'Reilly's will have some kind of battery tester (probably the conductance version) and will do it for you for free, in the hopes of being able to sell you a new battery, or at least gain your loyalty. The same reason they will read Check engine light codes on newer vehicles. The one by me seems quite honest and doesn't seem to want to sell you something you don't need, though.
>
> --
> Craig Lechowicz
> '77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206268 is a reply to message #206259] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 20:42 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| UziYaH wrote on Sun, 28 April 2013 19:43 |
Thanks Emery,
It is not the function of a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity of acid within a battery? Inquiring minds need to know. :-)
Howard Nylander
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Howard,
You have gotten a great collection of really good answers.
But, there is a problem. Even the neat instrument you have ordered (which beats everything else by a whole lot) cannot actually give you a real indication of the true current (as in right now) capacity of the battery. But, if you can find a relatively new battery to compare the reading to, it can be valuable.
There is no easy answer (that I have ever found).
A good voltmeter gets you the battery terminal voltage that can indicated state of charge.
A hydrometer (a good one) or refractometer (much more expensive) can still only indicate the state of charge.
Neither of these alone can give you any idea of the actual condition of the battery as far as its capacity to provide power.
The real internal resistance instruments can tell you much more, and with some experience, I am sure that you can make it meaningful. If you track the result over time, you will see changes that can indicate when a battery will no longer serve you well.
Let us know how well you do.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206270 is a reply to message #206268] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 21:07 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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There is a device called a load meter. It puts a high resistance load on the battery and you measure the battery voltage berfore and after the load. It gives a good indication of the battery condition and capacity. I have a 40 year old one but it still works great. Too bad I am not near you.
Emery Stora
On Apr 28, 2013, at 7:42 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
>
> UziYaH wrote on Sun, 28 April 2013 19:43
>> Thanks Emery,
>>
>> It is not the function of a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity of acid within a battery? Inquiring minds need to know. :-)
>>
>> Howard Nylander
>
> Howard,
>
> You have gotten a great collection of really good answers.
>
> But, there is a problem. Even the neat instrument you have ordered (which beats everything else by a whole lot) cannot actually give you a real indication of the true current (as in right now) capacity of the battery. But, if you can find a relatively new battery to compare the reading to, it can be valuable.
>
> There is no easy answer (that I have ever found).
> A good voltmeter gets you the battery terminal voltage that can indicated state of charge.
> A hydrometer (a good one) or refractometer (much more expensive) can still only indicate the state of charge.
> Neither of these alone can give you any idea of the actual condition of the battery as far as its capacity to provide power.
>
> The real internal resistance instruments can tell you much more, and with some experience, I am sure that you can make it meaningful. If you track the result over time, you will see changes that can indicate when a battery will no longer serve you well.
>
> Let us know how well you do.
>
> Matt
>
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206277 is a reply to message #206227] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 22:08 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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Can't help much more on the battery issue, but I found that my CPAP machine (a Remstar Auto) has a 12 volt power cord available so it can be run on a battery. The 120 volt plug has a converter that drops the voltage to 12 volts DC that actually runs the CPAP machine. Using such a cord would help take care of the inefficiencies of the inverter, and you should easily be able to run the machine overnight on the battery.
When we had a power failure due to storms a few years ago, I simply took my pillow and CPAP machine out to the GMC, plugged it into a 12 volt outlet, and slept like a baby overnight.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206286 is a reply to message #206273] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 22:48 |
UziYaH
Messages: 282
Registered: July 2007
Location: 10-O-C
Karma: 0
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Wow!, brother Rob, that was simple. :-) The problem is, that the C-PAP machine has to be on my face to work, ...and if it stops while I sleep, ...bad things happen, like heart attack and stroke of ten years ago.
I've gotten great response, from this inquire, which I sincerely appreciate, and have decided to have my deep cycle battery 'load tested' and go from there, using my new tools to monitor all my batteries.
Mega thanks to you and all who have shared. :-)
Howard Nylander
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Howard Nylander
Royale Class of "78" "Rocinate"
E-10-o-C
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| Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot [message #206287 is a reply to message #206277] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 23:00 |
UziYaH
Messages: 282
Registered: July 2007
Location: 10-O-C
Karma: 0
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Yes George, ...I almost did that last night when we had a long power failure due to a storm. Kind of wish I had. I love sleeping in our coach. While my wife and I don't travel much anymore, we do love the security of having our GMC motor-home sitting in our driveway as a back up when things go knackers. :-) Thanks for sharing.
Howard Nylander
Royale Class of '78' - 'Rocinante'
Greeneville, Tn.
________________________________
From: George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Barely Functioning Idiot
Can't help much more on the battery issue, but I found that my CPAP machine (a Remstar Auto) has a 12 volt power cord available so it can be run on a battery. The 120 volt plug has a converter that drops the voltage to 12 volts DC that actually runs the CPAP machine. Using such a cord would help take care of the inefficiencies of the inverter, and you should easily be able to run the machine overnight on the battery.
When we had a power failure due to storms a few years ago, I simply took my pillow and CPAP machine out to the GMC, plugged it into a 12 volt outlet, and slept like a baby overnight.
--
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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Howard Nylander
Royale Class of "78" "Rocinate"
E-10-o-C
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