Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Brake Problem
| Brake Problem [message #206186] |
Sat, 27 April 2013 23:19  |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Just got home from a five-day, 700 mile trip. Running in stop-and-go traffic, I hit the brakes hard enough to lock up at least one rear wheel at about 30mph. Thirty miles later I pulled off the freeway to stretch my legs and as I applied the brakes I felt a little "bump" in the pedal and then had to really step on the brakes as it felt like there was no vacuum assist (I have an electric vacuum pump). The red "Brake" light came on. I checked the fluid and both reservoirs seemed full. I had pedal pressure and was able to stop at a stop sign without excessive pressure so I drove the remaining 150 miles home - very carefully. I used the brakes as little as possible but every time I touched them they seemed normal. Coming off the freeway I was able to slow and stop normally although I gave myself a lot of room and a little help from second gear, just in case.
When I got home I checked the fluid again and both reservoirs were about where they had been. The vacuum pump seems to be working. The rear brakes were done by Applied GMC about 1,000 miles ago including replacement of at least one wheel cylinder. Front brakes seem OK but I don't know when or if they were replaced (60,000 miles on coach). Brake lines are all original.
What triggers the warning light to come on? What kind of problem should I be looking for?
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206192 is a reply to message #206186] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 02:35  |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
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one of the front brake pads could have powdered out. That is what it feels like when it happens on a dodge van.
get a flash light and look at the pads and see if one side is worn down to the metal, could be a sticky piston on the front
pad inside or out side on one of the front wheel calipers. Just my first idea. mickey :-) anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
On Apr 27, 2013, at 9:19 PM, Darryl Meyers wrote:
>
>
> Just got home from a five-day, 700 mile trip. Running in stop-and-go traffic, I hit the brakes hard enough to lock up at least one rear wheel at about 30mph. Thirty miles later I pulled off the freeway to stretch my legs and as I applied the brakes I felt a little "bump" in the pedal and then had to really step on the brakes as it felt like there was no vacuum assist (I have an electric vacuum pump). The red "Brake" light came on. I checked the fluid and both reservoirs seemed full. I had pedal pressure and was able to stop at a stop sign without excessive pressure so I drove the remaining 150 miles home - very carefully. I used the brakes as little as possible but every time I touched them they seemed normal. Coming off the freeway I was able to slow and stop normally although I gave myself a lot of room and a little help from second gear, just in case.
>
> When I got home I checked the fluid again and both reservoirs were about where they had been. The vacuum pump seems to be working. The rear brakes were done by Applied GMC about 1,000 miles ago including replacement of at least one wheel cylinder. Front brakes seem OK but I don't know when or if they were replaced (60,000 miles on coach). Brake lines are all original.
>
> What triggers the warning light to come on? What kind of problem should I be looking for?
> --
> Darryl Meyers
>
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> El Dorado Hills, CA
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206193 is a reply to message #206186] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 02:37 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
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spring popped off the rear wheel, inside should have a metal sound scratching sound at times. hard to hear from front.
Take the back brake drums off and see if a spring is off or broken on all four rear wheels you can spin it on jack and hear it as well.
mickey :-) anaheim ca. 77 palm beach. another idea.
On Apr 27, 2013, at 9:19 PM, Darryl Meyers wrote:
>
>
> Just got home from a five-day, 700 mile trip. Running in stop-and-go traffic, I hit the brakes hard enough to lock up at least one rear wheel at about 30mph. Thirty miles later I pulled off the freeway to stretch my legs and as I applied the brakes I felt a little "bump" in the pedal and then had to really step on the brakes as it felt like there was no vacuum assist (I have an electric vacuum pump). The red "Brake" light came on. I checked the fluid and both reservoirs seemed full. I had pedal pressure and was able to stop at a stop sign without excessive pressure so I drove the remaining 150 miles home - very carefully. I used the brakes as little as possible but every time I touched them they seemed normal. Coming off the freeway I was able to slow and stop normally although I gave myself a lot of room and a little help from second gear, just in case.
>
> When I got home I checked the fluid again and both reservoirs were about where they had been. The vacuum pump seems to be working. The rear brakes were done by Applied GMC about 1,000 miles ago including replacement of at least one wheel cylinder. Front brakes seem OK but I don't know when or if they were replaced (60,000 miles on coach). Brake lines are all original.
>
> What triggers the warning light to come on? What kind of problem should I be looking for?
> --
> Darryl Meyers
>
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> El Dorado Hills, CA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206199 is a reply to message #206186] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 08:40 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Daryl,
Below is a link to a photo that has the details the way the combination valve works out of the Maintenance Manual X-7525.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p37696-combination-valve-cros.html
"Something" caused a differential pressure across the valve and since subsequent to the event the brakes "seemed normal" my SWAG
from Texas is that there is a bit of air in the system somewhere.
I would:
1) inspect all the brake components
2) bleed the brakes as per MM X-7725 page 5-2 Figure 1-Brake Bleeding Sequence
However, If you haven't flushed the brake fluid in three years or less I'd do that.
The brake fluid with the highest boiling point wet or dry is ATE. They make two types as noted below:
ATE Super Blue Racing: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=21
ATE TYP 200: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=22
As you can see in the blurb ATE recommends changing it every three years and "The identical specifications of the fluid and color
difference make it easy to know when the old fluid is completely flushed out of the system."
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl Meyers
Just got home from a five-day, 700 mile trip. Running in stop-and-go traffic, I hit the brakes hard enough to lock up at least one
rear wheel at about 30mph. Thirty miles later I pulled off the freeway to stretch my legs and as I applied the brakes I felt a
little "bump" in the pedal and then had to really step on the brakes as it felt like there was no vacuum assist (I have an electric
vacuum pump). The red "Brake" light came on. I checked the fluid and both reservoirs seemed full. I had pedal pressure and was
able to stop at a stop sign without excessive pressure so I drove the remaining 150 miles home - very carefully. I used the brakes
as little as possible but every time I touched them they seemed normal. Coming off the freeway I was able to slow and stop normally
although I gave myself a lot of room and a little help from second gear, just in case.
When I got home I checked the fluid again and both reservoirs were about where they had been. The vacuum pump seems to be working.
The rear brakes were done by Applied GMC about 1,000 miles ago including replacement of at least one wheel cylinder. Front brakes
seem OK but I don't know when or if they were replaced (60,000 miles on coach). Brake lines are all original.
What triggers the warning light to come on? What kind of problem should I be looking for?
--
Darry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206205 is a reply to message #206203] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 09:22 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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It is also possible, if there's a bit of moisture in the fluid, to get a bit of boiling in a heavy (read hot) stop. Stop n go can get them wondrous hot. I'm with Matt - inspect closely, if there's no problem seen and the situation hasn't recurred, carry on.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem
Darryl wrote on Sun, 28 April 2013 00:19
> Just got home from a five-day, 700 mile trip. Running in stop-and-go traffic, I hit the brakes hard enough to lock up at least one rear wheel at about 30mph.
> <full description snipped>
> What triggers the warning light to come on? What kind of problem should I be looking for?
Darryl,
The only thing that is supposed to activate the "Brake" light in the cluster is the differential switch in the proportioning valve. For that to come on and then go off means the situation must have been minor and temporary. Were it a major failure it is supposed to stay on.
You say both sides of the master are full, but that does not mean you don't have a leak starting somewhere. I would start looking thing over vary carefully. Have you ever replaced the rubber brake lines. As they fail, they can cause some very strange things to happen.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206217 is a reply to message #206205] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 11:18 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Matt
The "Brake" warning light did stay on. Very intimidating driving with it staring me in the face. I made sure I had lots of room ahead and tried to stay in the right-hand lane so I usually had an escape route. On the few times I touched the brakes they seemed fine - I would have stopped at the first sign of a soft or ineffective peddle.
Darryl
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: Brake Problem [message #206233 is a reply to message #206186] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 13:27 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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OK, I just spent a couple of hours reading the Maintenance Manual. No quick fixes so it looks like my plans to replace the rubber brake lines sometime this summer just got a much higher priority. Like next week.
It looks to me like the hardest part of this is going to be bleeding the brakes. Last time I did that was on a 64 MGB in about 1966. It looks like I'm going to need a pressure bleeder (Harbor Freight?) and the Maintenance Manual refers to a special tool (J-23709) that should be "attached to the combination valve to hold the push rod in and allow the pressure in the line to
flow through the valve". I haven't looked at the combination valve that closely yet but I'm guessing I should be able to figure out a substitute.
If I've got to bleed the lines I may as well replace the master cylinder and the combination valve as well. Looks like about $400 in parts plus the fluid and some new tools (every project seems to require at least one new tool). If JimK doesn't have my credit card number memorized he probably will now.
Darryl
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: Brake Problem [message #206265 is a reply to message #206233] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 20:10 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Darryl wrote on Sun, 28 April 2013 14:27 |
OK, I just spent a couple of hours reading the Maintenance Manual. No quick fixes so it looks like my plans to replace the rubber brake lines sometime this summer just got a much higher priority. Like next week.
It looks to me like the hardest part of this is going to be bleeding the brakes. Last time I did that was on a 64 MGB in about 1966. It looks like I'm going to need a pressure bleeder (Harbor Freight?) and the Maintenance Manual refers to a special tool (J-23709) that should be "attached to the combination valve to hold the push rod in and allow the pressure in the line to
flow through the valve". I haven't looked at the combination valve that closely yet but I'm guessing I should be able to figure out a substitute.
If I've got to bleed the lines I may as well replace the master cylinder and the combination valve as well. Looks like about $400 in parts plus the fluid and some new tools (every project seems to require at least one new tool). If JimK doesn't have my credit card number memorized he probably will now.
Darryl
|
Darryl,
Your plan is good and I highly recommend it, but as everybody that knows me knows about me that I am absolutely paranoid about brakes, lifejackets and parachutes. (But, I have managed to get old this way...)
Before you do anything else, get the coach in the air and all the wheels off. Then soak the flare nuts and bleed screws with the penetrant of choice. Remember to put some inside the bleed screws.
Of course you will need some new tools, but HF won't have the power bleeder you need. They have a cheezy vacuum bleeder, but you can make a much better one with any kind of a little sucky pump, a pickle jar (used and cleaned), some small tubing (bent and soldered or epoxied into the lid) and hose that fits the tubing and the bleeder screws.
You won't need much of anything to push in the pin on the proportioning (combination) valve. It takes very little force and only moves about 0.030~0.040". I used a tiny bar clamp.
One tool I highly recommend these days is a Visegrip 7LW. This is a genuine ViseGrip that has jaws just to grip a hex. I carry the 4, 7 & 10 in my coach kit. It can hold any hex in its size range and you can reef on it all you are worth and you won't (can't) blow the shoulders off..... (Because it doesn't need or use them.) (No, I don't own stock in the company.)
You can buy them if you want to, but don't count on needing a master cylinder and combination valve until you get the system open. If there is evidence of corrosion, then you can replace lots of stuff.
You really want to open up the rear brakes if you are having this kind of a problem. There may be leakage there that has just not yet evidenced itself outside as yet. If you have not repacked the rear wheel bearing, this is your chance. It will add about an half a day's work and the new seals will add about 20$us to the total cost of the job. (Cheap)
Before you start on the brakes, take your new vacuum bleeder and use it to first suck the fluid out of the master cylinder reservoirs, then go on to all the bleed screws and empty out the system. This will make the rest of the job much cleaner and more pleasant. (Please trust me on this one.) Brake fluid is rough on your hide and DON'T get it in eyes <pain and hospital>. This will take a little time. but you will be glad you took that time.
Now that you know the bleeders actually unscrew, take each out and wire brush it clean and put a wrap of telfon tape on it (not my idea, blame C. Boyd - I like it better than my idea) or coat it with a teflon loaded pipe dope (what I have been doing for years) There are two reasons for this, one is two keep the threads safe from corrosion, and the other is to seal the threads for vacuum bleeding. Even if you pressure bleed, it is still a good idea as brake fluid is hydroscopic and can become corrosive when it is open to air.
Vacuum bleeding really is best done with a helper. (Mary's mechanical talent was wasted standing on a step watching the fluid level, but I can't be in two places.) It is a real good idea to have someone to watch the reservoir level. If it gets down too low....
Matt - care to guess what my big winter project was?
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206285 is a reply to message #206265] |
Sun, 28 April 2013 22:37 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Darrell,
Light comes on to advise you that either the rear or the front has
differential pressure.
Master cylinger faller of one (front / rear) piston will ca
use the problem.
Bring it in and we will inspect it for you n/c.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Darryl wrote on Sun, 28 April 2013 14:27
> > OK, I just spent a couple of hours reading the Maintenance Manual. No
> quick fixes so it looks like my plans to replace the rubber brake lines
> sometime this summer just got a much higher priority. Like next week.
> >
> > It looks to me like the hardest part of this is going to be bleeding the
> brakes. Last time I did that was on a 64 MGB in about 1966. It looks like
> I'm going to need a pressure bleeder (Harbor Freight?) and the Maintenance
> Manual refers to a special tool (J-23709) that should be "attached to the
> combination valve to hold the push rod in and allow the pressure in the
> line to
> > flow through the valve". I haven't looked at the combination valve that
> closely yet but I'm guessing I should be able to figure out a substitute.
> >
> > If I've got to bleed the lines I may as well replace the master cylinder
> and the combination valve as well. Looks like about $400 in parts plus the
> fluid and some new tools (every project seems to require at least one new
> tool). If JimK doesn't have my credit card number memorized he probably
> will now.
> >
> > Darryl
> Darryl,
>
> Your plan is good and I highly recommend it, but as everybody that knows
> me knows about me that I am absolutely paranoid about brakes, lifejackets
> and parachutes. (But, I have managed to get old this way...)
>
> Before you do anything else, get the coach in the air and all the wheels
> off. Then soak the flare nuts and bleed screws with the penetrant of
> choice. Remember to put some inside the bleed screws.
>
> Of course you will need some new tools, but HF won't have the power
> bleeder you need. They have a cheezy vacuum bleeder, but you can make a
> much better one with any kind of a little sucky pump, a pickle jar (used
> and cleaned), some small tubing (bent and soldered or epoxied into the lid)
> and hose that fits the tubing and the bleeder screws.
>
> You won't need much of anything to push in the pin on the proportioning
> (combination) valve. It takes very little force and only moves about
> 0.030~0.040". I used a tiny bar clamp.
>
> One tool I highly recommend these days is a Visegrip 7LW. This is a
> genuine ViseGrip that has jaws just to grip a hex. I carry the 4, 7 & 10
> in my coach kit. It can hold any hex in its size range and you can reef on
> it all you are worth and you won't (can't) blow the shoulders off.....
> (Because it doesn't need or use them.) (No, I don't own stock in the
> company.)
>
> You can buy them if you want to, but don't count on needing a master
> cylinder and combination valve until you get the system open. If there is
> evidence of corrosion, then you can replace lots of stuff.
>
> You really want to open up the rear brakes if you are having this kind of
> a problem. There may be leakage there that has just not yet evidenced
> itself outside as yet. If you have not repacked the rear wheel bearing,
> this is your chance. It will add about an half a day's work and the new
> seals will add about 20$us to the total cost of the job. (Cheap)
>
> Before you start on the brakes, take your new vacuum bleeder and use it to
> first suck the fluid out of the master cylinder reservoirs, then go on to
> all the bleed screws and empty out the system. This will make the rest of
> the job much cleaner and more pleasant. (Please trust me on this one.)
> Brake fluid is rough on your hide and DON'T get it in eyes <pain and
> hospital>. This will take a little time. but you will be glad you took
> that time.
>
> Now that you know the bleeders actually unscrew, take each out and wire
> brush it clean and put a wrap of telfon tape on it (not my idea, blame C.
> Boyd - I like it better than my idea) or coat it with a teflon loaded pipe
> dope (what I have been doing for years) There are two reasons for this,
> one is two keep the threads safe from corrosion, and the other is to seal
> the threads for vacuum bleeding. Even if you pressure bleed, it is still a
> good idea as brake fluid is hydroscopic and can become corrosive when it is
> open to air.
>
> Vacuum bleeding really is best done with a helper. (Mary's mechanical
> talent was wasted standing on a step watching the fluid level, but I can't
> be in two places.) It is a real good idea to have someone to watch the
> reservoir level. If it gets down too low....
>
> Matt - care to guess what my big winter project was?
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will
> find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206290 is a reply to message #206285] |
Mon, 29 April 2013 00:02 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jim
Thanks, but I think I'll just replace it. I was going to do it eventually anyway - this just makes it a little more urgent. I'll give Nick a call in the morning to order the parts.
Darryl
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: Brake Problem [message #206291 is a reply to message #206265] |
Mon, 29 April 2013 00:07 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Matt
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll get the coach up in the air tomorrow. I hadn't thought about the penetrating fluid - good idea.
The rear drums were replaced a couple of months ago along with a wheel cylinder. The bearings were packed then as well. I will pull the drums just to make sure none of the remaining wheel cylinders are leaking and maybe replace them anyway.
Darryl
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206292 is a reply to message #206262] |
Mon, 29 April 2013 00:23 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rob
Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at the Harbor Freight vacuum bleeders and wasn't really impressed. I think I'll take your suggestion and give Jim a call unless he's still on his honeymoon.
I saw the revised bleeding sequence in the 77/78 supplement and will follow that.
I think I will try to make my own "special tool". It doesn't sound too tough even for my limited mechanical skills.
I will pass on trying to rebuild the combination valve though. I'll leave that for Ken and others with a little (a lot) more mechanical experience. I'm a lot more comfortable giving JimK a little more of my money and knowing the valve is going to do what it was designed to do.
Darryl
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206294 is a reply to message #206292] |
Mon, 29 April 2013 01:30 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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If the rubber lines have not been replaced, they need to be done,
On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Darryl Meyers <hospacctg@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Rob
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at the Harbor Freight vacuum
> bleeders and wasn't really impressed. I think I'll take your suggestion
> and give Jim a call unless he's still on his honeymoon.
>
> I saw the revised bleeding sequence in the 77/78 supplement and will
> follow that.
>
> I think I will try to make my own "special tool". It doesn't sound too
> tough even for my limited mechanical skills.
>
> I will pass on trying to rebuild the combination valve though. I'll leave
> that for Ken and others with a little (a lot) more mechanical experience.
> I'm a lot more comfortable giving JimK a little more of my money and
> knowing the valve is going to do what it was designed to do.
>
> Darryl
> --
> Darryl Meyers
>
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> El Dorado Hills, CA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Problem [message #206296 is a reply to message #206291] |
Mon, 29 April 2013 01:33 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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just shows there is a pressure difference between the front and rear lines
is prob not the switch, is the MS or brakes
gene
On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Darryl Meyers <hospacctg@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Matt
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. I'll get the coach up in the air tomorrow. I
> hadn't thought about the penetrating fluid - good idea.
>
> The rear drums were replaced a couple of months ago along with a wheel
> cylinder. The bearings were packed then as well. I will pull the drums
> just to make sure none of the remaining wheel cylinders are leaking and
> maybe replace them anyway.
>
> Darryl
> --
> Darryl Meyers
>
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
> El Dorado Hills, CA
> _______________________________________________
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>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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