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| steering gearbox thoughts [message #205437] |
Sun, 21 April 2013 17:03  |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
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Found after trying to center my steering box again that it was a 4 1/4 stop to stop box rather than 3 1/3 stop to stop. Learned that this is because of no internal stops. My question is, what kind of extra strain does this do to all my new steering components, and any other thoughts of this type of gearbox. Another question if I was to replace it does the adjustment screw usually come set or does it still need to be set. Thanks again.
Skip Hartline
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205441 is a reply to message #205437] |
Sun, 21 April 2013 18:25  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Skip,
I'm no expert on suspension, steering boxes, nor much of anything else, but
I still have an opinion on the absence of stops from the GMC steering box.
Ever since I heard of their existence and the potential for their being
missing, I've been concerned that their absence will allow the knuckles to
hit the A-arms, specifically at the rivets or bolt heads securing the lower
ball joints. If you look at the geometry of that situation, you'll see the
long lever of the steering arm operating on the fulcrum of the bolt head
very close to the ball joint. In other words, at full steering lock, the
hydraulically forced steering arm is seriously prying the ball joint toward
the end of the A-arm. I don't see how that can not be a very bad situation.
Since the steering box must be removed from the coach in order to set the
"high spot", I sure wouldn't install one without doing that simple
test/adjustment first -- unless it just came from Dave Lenzi.
Ken H.
On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Skip Hartline wrote:
>
>
> Found after trying to center my steering box again that it was a 4 1/4
> stop to stop box rather than 3 1/3 stop to stop. Learned that this is
> because of no internal stops. My question is, what kind of extra strain
> does this do to all my new steering components, and any other thoughts of
> this type of gearbox. Another question if I was to replace it does the
> adjustment screw usually come set or does it still need to be set. Thanks
> again.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205490 is a reply to message #205437] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 06:50 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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If you purchased your steering box from a rebuilder, don;t touch the adjustment, they will not talk to you about problems with the box if you take it back. They should have adjusted it on their bench, if it does not work properly take it back to them. These rebuilds are being done with some very old parts, things happen and if the box has any problems when you put it on which you should do right away simply take it off, document the problem and take it back. DO NOT OPEN IT UP.
There were different count lock to lock worm gears in these boxes, some work better in our application but in my book, if you bought it from a rebuilder it is the most economical way to get a good working box, if you want to get picky about turn count, you will need to take it directly to a small builder and have them build the box to your spec. As parts get older and need drops, rebuilders and parts stores "group" the parts. It may not be the exact turn count but the box bolts up and works and for that we are fortunate to have the option.
This is what happens when old parts drop in popularity, they get hard to find. Stores carry parts by turn-- how many will they hope to sell in "X" amount of time. Many of our parts have been grouped or simply gone away because of this.
If your rebuilt box works, does not leak and does both of those things reliably, I feel you have the part you need. No, this is not as "exact" as specifying but hey, you are driving! Hope this helps,
Jim Bounds
--------------------
________________________________
From: Skip Hartline <skiphartline@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 6:03 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts
Found after trying to center my steering box again that it was a 4 1/4 stop to stop box rather than 3 1/3 stop to stop. Learned that this is because of no internal stops. My question is, what kind of extra strain does this do to all my new steering components, and any other thoughts of this type of gearbox. Another question if I was to replace it does the adjustment screw usually come set or does it still need to be set. Thanks again.
Skip Hartline
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205491 is a reply to message #205441] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 07:03 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Ken, on the 73s, a 1" square piece of metal was welded to the tip of the
A-arm to act as a steering stop. I believe it was a factory bandaid.
Steve F.
On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> Skip,
>
> I'm no expert on suspension, steering boxes, nor much of anything else, but
> I still have an opinion on the absence of stops from the GMC steering box.
> Ever since I heard of their existence and the potential for their being
> missing, I've been concerned that their absence will allow the knuckles to
> hit the A-arms, specifically at the rivets or bolt heads securing the lower
> ball joints. If you look at the geometry of that situation, you'll see the
> long lever of the steering arm operating on the fulcrum of the bolt head
> very close to the ball joint. In other words, at full steering lock, the
> hydraulically forced steering arm is seriously prying the ball joint toward
> the end of the A-arm. I don't see how that can not be a very bad
> situation.
>
> Since the steering box must be removed from the coach in order to set the
> "high spot", I sure wouldn't install one without doing that simple
> test/adjustment first -- unless it just came from Dave Lenzi.
>
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Skip Hartline wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Found after trying to center my steering box again that it was a 4 1/4
> > stop to stop box rather than 3 1/3 stop to stop. Learned that this is
> > because of no internal stops. My question is, what kind of extra strain
> > does this do to all my new steering components, and any other thoughts of
> > this type of gearbox. Another question if I was to replace it does the
> > adjustment screw usually come set or does it still need to be set. Thanks
> > again.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205494 is a reply to message #205491] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 07:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
Do you know if that was before the steering box stops were added? Have you
seen any correlation between having those stops and damage to the ball
joint end of the A-arms? If not, my concerns may not be justified.
I know that 'way back 'most all cars had at-the-wheel turn stops, many of
them adjustable, which would lead one to think it's not a bad idea -- but
that was before power steering.
Ken H.
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
> Ken, on the 73s, a 1" square piece of metal was welded to the tip of the
> A-arm to act as a steering stop. I believe it was a factory bandaid.
> Steve F.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205498 is a reply to message #205490] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 08:50 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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If you want a steering box that is set up right, then contact Dave Lenzi. He is now rebuilding steering boxes for the coach. They come all set up with the box shipped centered on high point and locked with a shipping stop. I don't know if Jim K or Jim B has them yet, but you can get a hold of Dave here.
http://www.bdub.net/lenzi/index.html
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:50 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you purchased your steering box from a rebuilder, don;t touch the adjustment, they will not talk to you about problems with the box if you take it back. They should have adjusted it on their bench, if it does not work properly take it back to them. These rebuilds are being done with some very old parts, things happen and if the box has any problems when you put it on which you should do right away simply take it off, document the problem and take it back. DO NOT OPEN IT UP.
>
> There were different count lock to lock worm gears in these boxes, some work better in our application but in my book, if you bought it from a rebuilder it is the most economical way to get a good working box, if you want to get picky about turn count, you will need to take it directly to a small builder and have them build the box to your spec. As parts get older and need drops, rebuilders and parts stores "group" the parts. It may not be the exact turn count but the box bolts up and works and for that we are fortunate to have the option.
>
> This is what happens when old parts drop in popularity, they get hard to find. Stores carry parts by turn-- how many will they hope to sell in "X" amount of time. Many of our parts have been grouped or simply gone away because of this.
>
> If your rebuilt box works, does not leak and does both of those things reliably, I feel you have the part you need. No, this is not as "exact" as specifying but hey, you are driving! Hope this helps,
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Skip Hartline <skiphartline@aol.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 6:03 PM
> Subject: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts
>
>
>
>
> Found after trying to center my steering box again that it was a 4 1/4 stop to stop box rather than 3 1/3 stop to stop. Learned that this is because of no internal stops. My question is, what kind of extra strain does this do to all my new steering components, and any other thoughts of this type of gearbox. Another question if I was to replace it does the adjustment screw usually come set or does it still need to be set. Thanks again.
> Skip Hartline
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: steering gearbox thoughts [message #205499 is a reply to message #205437] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 08:59 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Also if you are the only driver, don't hold it at full lock. Not a good thing to do in any car or truck as the PS pressures go to relief valve high and forces are extreme. Car won't turn in a smaller circle if you are at the stop with no pressure or at the stop cranking on it. I bet they don't teach that in drivers ed along with other do' N don'ts.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205501 is a reply to message #205494] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 09:07 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Yes Ken. That was the factory bandaid for no steering stops in the boxes.
Stops in the boxes were added in the 74 models. It does not appear to have
damaged any of the dozens of '73 A-arms I've seen.
Steve
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:35 AM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Do you know if that was before the steering box stops were added? Have you
> seen any correlation between having those stops and damage to the ball
> joint end of the A-arms? If not, my concerns may not be justified.
>
> I know that 'way back 'most all cars had at-the-wheel turn stops, many of
> them adjustable, which would lead one to think it's not a bad idea -- but
> that was before power steering.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
>
> > Ken, on the 73s, a 1" square piece of metal was welded to the tip of the
> > A-arm to act as a steering stop. I believe it was a factory bandaid.
> > Steve F.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: steering gearbox thoughts [message #205573 is a reply to message #205437] |
Mon, 22 April 2013 22:04 |
Gadabout
Messages: 124
Registered: March 2013
Location: Edmonton
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Is it possible that the box is a different ratio than the one you are comparing to ?
If so, This would explain the difference in the number of turns to obtain full lock in either direction.
Carl Harr : Driver NASCAR Pro Series #2
1978 Gadabout-Restoring
1978 Palm Beach
1976 Glenbrook
Prevost Featherlite H3-45
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205682 is a reply to message #205494] |
Tue, 23 April 2013 22:46 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Mon, 22 April 2013 06:35 |
Steve,
Do you know if that was before the steering box stops were added? Have you
seen any correlation between having those stops and damage to the ball
joint end of the A-arms? If not, my concerns may not be justified.
I know that 'way back 'most all cars had at-the-wheel turn stops, many of
them adjustable, which would lead one to think it's not a bad idea -- but
that was before power steering.
Ken H.
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
> Ken, on the 73s, a 1" square piece of metal was welded to the tip of the
> A-arm to act as a steering stop. I believe it was a factory bandaid.
> Steve F.
>
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I don't hink it's as serious as it seems. We had many vehicles that had no internal stops and we routinely allowed one wheel to bottom out on a knuckle stop and allow the other wheel to turn more soley thru suspension component and bushing compliance. This was done mainly to improve the turning circle. There's a lot of compliance in a steering and suspension system that is routinely used for such purposes and it doesn't dmage major components. The main reasons for steering stops and suspension stops is to prevent damage due to major impacts such as curbs--not steering over travel.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts [message #205683 is a reply to message #205498] |
Tue, 23 April 2013 22:48 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| powerjon wrote on Mon, 22 April 2013 07:50 |
If you want a steering box that is set up right, then contact Dave Lenzi. He is now rebuilding steering boxes for the coach. They come all set up with the box shipped centered on high point and locked with a shipping stop. I don't know if Jim K or Jim B has them yet, but you can get a hold of Dave here.
http://www.bdub.net/lenzi/index.html
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:50 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you purchased your steering box from a rebuilder, don;t touch the adjustment, they will not talk to you about problems with the box if you take it back. They should have adjusted it on their bench, if it does not work properly take it back to them. These rebuilds are being done with some very old parts, things happen and if the box has any problems when you put it on which you should do right away simply take it off, document the problem and take it back. DO NOT OPEN IT UP.
>
> There were different count lock to lock worm gears in these boxes, some work better in our application but in my book, if you bought it from a rebuilder it is the most economical way to get a good working box, if you want to get picky about turn count, you will need to take it directly to a small builder and have them build the box to your spec. As parts get older and need drops, rebuilders and parts stores "group" the parts. It may not be the exact turn count but the box bolts up and works and for that we are fortunate to have the option.
>
> This is what happens when old parts drop in popularity, they get hard to find. Stores carry parts by turn-- how many will they hope to sell in "X" amount of time. Many of our parts have been grouped or simply gone away because of this.
>
> If your rebuilt box works, does not leak and does both of those things reliably, I feel you have the part you need. No, this is not as "exact" as specifying but hey, you are driving! Hope this helps,
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Skip Hartline <skiphartline@aol.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 6:03 PM
> Subject: [GMCnet] steering gearbox thoughts
>
>
>
>
> Found after trying to center my steering box again that it was a 4 1/4 stop to stop box rather than 3 1/3 stop to stop. Learned that this is because of no internal stops. My question is, what kind of extra strain does this do to all my new steering components, and any other thoughts of this type of gearbox. Another question if I was to replace it does the adjustment screw usually come set or does it still need to be set. Thanks again.
> Skip Hartline
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Ed Galubensky in Brighton Michigan is taking over the rebuilding business for Dave Lenzi
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: steering gearbox thoughts [message #205684 is a reply to message #205499] |
Tue, 23 April 2013 22:50 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 22 April 2013 07:59 |
Also if you are the only driver, don't hold it at full lock. Not a good thing to do in any car or truck as the PS pressures go to relief valve high and forces are extreme. Car won't turn in a smaller circle if you are at the stop with no pressure or at the stop cranking on it. I bet they don't teach that in drivers ed along with other do' N don'ts.
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That will increase the oil temp if held for a long period of time, but other than that it's not a major issue.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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