Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Aluminum T Skirts
|
|
|
|
| Re: Aluminum T Skirts [message #201478 is a reply to message #201448] |
Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37   |
 |
John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry:
WOW That's Great!!!
While I might not try a skirt like that I have another project I would like to try and those skills would certainly be helpful.
I know that questions are easy to ask, but than the answer may be a killer. It seems my university professors did a good job of that (Sometimes the answer to a one sentance question was an essay or thesis.) If you feel that this is the case than I can also look in other places and not feel slighted if you did not answer. Im hoping you have a simple answer.
I can see that the flanges will need some shrinking as you begin to roll the bottom of the skirt in toward the frame. I know that the hammering of the flanges on a dolly will thin the metal and stretch the metal and that would make the skirt roll the opposite way.
What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large shrinking tool like the ones you have.
I really liked the Tipping tool too!!
Best regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
|
|
|
|
| Re: Aluminum T Skirts [message #201485 is a reply to message #201448] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 00:55 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
What a great "how to" posting! A master craftsman makes it look easy but I know it is above my capabilities. So all I can do is sit back and admire your work.
Thank you for letting me know what is possible for someone with the right skills.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
|
|
|
|
| Re: Aluminum T Skirts [message #201493 is a reply to message #201478] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 05:44 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37 |
...
What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large shrinking tool like the ones you have....
|
John, you have successfully understood THE challenge in shaping metal. Shaping metal involves shrinking, stretching, and smoothing (actually a slight form of stretching) metal.
You are correct, hammer ON dolly thins the metal increasing the surface area or a stretch.
Stretching is easy...shrinking is hard!
Well...harder anyway. The key thing to grasp is that metal flows under pressure and it flows in the path of least resistance. It can be shrunk with hand tools if you understand how to configure it and how to direct your blows so the metal flows where you want it to flow. The technique is called "TUCK SHRINKING" and basically involves BENDING the metal into a ruffle, bubble, tuck ...whatever you want to call it...and then using a hammer and post dolly, gently hammering the metal into itself, making it thicker (Shrink). You can also shrink into a hollowed out stump.
These are ancient techniques and not difficult to master. There is not, however, a magic metalshaping tool you can buy that will make this stuff just happen. You have to put in your time and make some scrap. 
Learning how to shape metal with basic tools is really key to learning the craft. There is NOTHING that a fancy tool can do that you cannot do with simple hand tools and time. In fact, until you understand the basics of how the metal moves, I preach that you should avoid getting more expensive tools because it will only increase your scrap rate.
The "Lancaster" style shrinker and stretch is probably the first significant tool you would want. The HF knockoff is actually pretty decent although you will probably want to upgrade the dies if you are going to work aluminum. http://www.harborfreight.com/metal-shrinkerstretcher-set-68897.html]
I sell a 'MetalShaping 101' DVD but a friend has a better one. His name is David Gardiner and his DVD can be found at: </a>
If you are really interested in learning metal shaping, I'd suggest you join our site: <a href="http://allmetalshaping.com" target="_blank"> As the name implies, it is dedicated to metalshaping. Be warned...it is another cult just like GMCNet.
Thanks for the kind words Ken, I'll show you some of this stuff in person at Dothan. It ain't really rocket science...a lot simpler than electrical engineering.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Wed, 13 March 2013 05:59] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201497 is a reply to message #201493] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 06:29 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Those old timers will remember TZE+ (Daren Paget) once offered aluminum T skirts. They were a thing of beauty, built in the same fashion describer below, Daren was really proud of them and for good reason. There were 2 problems with them however, those that knew Daren know he was driven to make some awesome products but one day I asked him how much he was selling them for and how long did it take him to make them. The had them priced at $95 with the similar fiberglass ones being sold for $50 he didn't think anyone would buy them if they cost anymore. Then he said he probably had @ 15 hours in fabrication, welding and shaping.
Lets see, that's $6.33 per hour, adding no cost for materials which he said there was probably $30 worth of aluminum and welding materials. So that means he made @ $4.33 per hour in production? He thought for a moment and said-- yea, but they are just so cool!
The 2nd problem is the original T skirt is a dynamic design. When an air bag or tire goes, the T skirt is designed to "breakaway" to allow the pressure to push outward as opposed to going inward and really messing up the world. Even the fiberglass ones we only have available today are more robust than the original plastic ones so when something goes wrong in the wheel well, there will usually be damage to the SMC plastic wheel surround. With an aluminum T skirt in place, bank that the outer wheel surround will be yanked out and there may be wheel liner damage because the pressure was held in.
I said all of that to say, it may not be the best use of all that technology to make aluminum T skirts. The GM engineers I think really put some thought into the original T skirt design. Personally, I like the look of no T skirt, I like to show off the quad bag technology!
A reminder that to every modification they are always unexpected results and though a good reason for doing something is just cause I can may be an economic desaster,
Jim Bounds
--------------------------
________________________________
From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37
> ...
> What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large shrinking tool like the ones you have....
John, you have successfully understood THE challenge in shaping metal. Shaping metal involves shrinking, stretching, and smoothing (actually a slight form of stretching)metal.
You are correct, hammer ON dolly thins the metal increasing the surface area or a stretch.
Stretching is easy...shrinking is hard!
Well...harder anyway. The key thing to grasp is that metal flows under pressure and it flows in the path of least resistance. It can be shrunk with hand tools if you understand how to configure it and how to direct your blows so the metal flows where you want it to flow.
Learning how to shape metal with basic tools is really key to learning the craft. There is NOTHING that a fancy tool can do that you cannot do with simple hand tools and time. In fact, until you understand the basics, I preach that you should avoid getting more expensive tools because it will only increase your scrap rate.
The "Lancaster" style shrinker and stretch is probably the first significant tool you would want. The HF knockoff is actually pretty decent although you will probably want to upgrade the dies if you are going to work aluminum. [url=http://www.harborfreight.com/metal-shrinkerstretcher-set-68897.html]
I sell a 'MetalShaping 101' DVD but a friend has a better one. His name is David Gardiner and his DVD can be found at: http://metalshapingzone.com
If you are really interested in learning metal shaping, I'd suggest you join our site: http://allmetalshaping.com As the name implies, it is dedicated to metalshaping. Be warned...it is another cult just like GMCNet.
Thanks for the kind words Ken, I'll show you some of this stuff in person at Dothan.
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201500 is a reply to message #201485] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 07:11 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I was thinking while I was reading and looking, "I bet that isn't anywhere near as easy as he makes it look!"
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
What a great "how to" posting! A master craftsman makes it look easy but I know it is above my capabilities. So all I can do is sit back and admire your work.
Thank you for letting me know what is possible for someone with the right skills.
Ken B.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201510 is a reply to message #201500] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 07:59 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yea, Daren went to great lengths back then to tell me how they were made-- truly they were a work of art, if they were a little smaller you could have worn them around your neck! It's this way on many things folks come up with, you must remeber anything is possible with "cubic dollars" and sometimes we all get caught up with excitement. If you stand back and put a figure on what some doodad costs to put into reality it would come down to you do it just cause you can!
You say you're retired and your time has no cost-- sorry that sounds great but it's just not true. I mean just how many weekends do you think you have left? How many more times can you go "diver down" under the coach like I saw Hal K. do at a flying J near Quartzite to fix a fuel leak after filling up! We were heading back from LA to Orlando driving Rick F. coach which BTW is another thing I may now want to do to many times, walked over and there was Hal laying next to his coach tracing a fuel leak after he had troubles with both "in tank" fuel pumps taking a dump. I stopped and offered help but was so glad Hal was diver down handling his issues. Your time is worth something because if Hal had not done that repair he would have to pay someone to do it so don;t think of you spend your time as no value.
You spend weeks messing with some doodad on your coach, you finally beat it into submission-- was your time well spent and we the thing you did worth what it cost to do? So then you may propose other people to do the same thing you did-- why? It ended up actually costing you more than it was worth, the guy you told to do that thing goes to a shop to have it done and it costs him a bloody fortune-- did you help him?
Please guys, whenever you propose a project, you have to remember there are lurkers out there hanging on every word that's printed here. They aspire to have as cool a coach as some of you and want to repeat everything you guys do. Unfortunately, some of the stuff will cost them a fortune and cause more maintenance costs down the road. Please lay out the economics of some of the things you guys talk about here. I'm not going to name these things mainly because most of them were brought up for the best of reasons, in the end though something that is good to do also needs to be cost effective. Put that filter onto any project you thing you want to do before you get committed.
Bottom line, aluminum T skirts ARE cool, but they need to be gold plated as well to reflect their value,
Jim Bounds
-----------------
________________________________
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
I was thinking while I was reading and looking, "I bet that isn't anywhere near as easy as he makes it look!"
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
What a great "how to" posting! A master craftsman makes it look easy but I know it is above my capabilities. So all I can do is sit back and admire your work.
Thank you for letting me know what is possible for someone with the right skills.
Ken B.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201536 is a reply to message #201510] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 09:24 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The analysis is reasonably accurate, but the philosophy isn't, I don't think. Consider - I do a lot of stuff to my rolling stock including the GMCs to learn both how they're put together and how the job is done. The learning aspect has value. Were I to do this purely from an economic standpoint I'd do it very differently... I'd take the coach to you who already knows and pay your rate while using the same weekend to turn 17-`1800 dollars fixing some station's RF plant or studios. And learn nothing, I already know how to do that.... it's how I finance dog shows and motor homes. Much more fun to do something the first time and learn in the process. And, given the resources here, I can learn with a smaller junk pile than without them. As to the lurkers - of which I'm one on many of these projects, I still hold to the concept of the 'reasonable and prudent man'.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
n.b. If you're concerned about an air bag blowing inside the skirt, use slots instead of holes for the upper hardware on the T skirts, and sandwich the two edges between a couple of rubber washers. They'll let go long before the inner liner.
jb
________________________________
From: Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
Yea, Daren went to great lengths back then to tell me how they were made-- truly they were a work of art, if they were a little smaller you could have worn them around your neck! It's this way on many things folks come up with, you must remeber anything is possible with "cubic dollars" and sometimes we all get caught up with excitement. If you stand back and put a figure on what some doodad costs to put into reality it would come down to you do it just cause you can!
You say you're retired and your time has no cost-- sorry that sounds great but it's just not true. I mean just how many weekends do you think you have left? How many more times can you go "diver down" under the coach like I saw Hal K. do at a flying J near Quartzite to fix a fuel leak after filling up! We were heading back from LA to Orlando driving Rick F. coach which BTW is another thing I may now want to do to many times, walked over and there was Hal laying next to his coach tracing a fuel leak after he had troubles with both "in tank" fuel pumps taking a dump. I stopped and offered help but was so glad Hal was diver down handling his issues. Your time is worth something because if Hal had not done that repair he would have to pay someone to do it so don;t think of you spend your time as no value.
You spend weeks messing with some doodad on your coach, you finally beat it into submission-- was your time well spent and we the thing you did worth what it cost to do? So then you may propose other people to do the same thing you did-- why? It ended up actually costing you more than it was worth, the guy you told to do that thing goes to a shop to have it done and it costs him a bloody fortune-- did you help him?
Please guys, whenever you propose a project, you have to remember there are lurkers out there hanging on every word that's printed here. They aspire to have as cool a coach as some of you and want to repeat everything you guys do. Unfortunately, some of the stuff will cost them a fortune and cause more maintenance costs down the road. Please lay out the economics of some of the things you guys talk about here. I'm not going to name these things mainly because most of them were brought up for the best of reasons, in the end though something that is good to do also needs to be cost effective. Put that filter onto any project you thing you want to do before you get committed.
Bottom line, aluminum T skirts ARE cool, but they need to be gold plated as well to reflect their value,
Jim Bounds
-----------------
________________________________
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
I was thinking while I was reading and looking, "I bet that isn't anywhere near as easy as he makes it look!"
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
What a great "how to" posting! A master craftsman makes it look easy but I know it is above my capabilities. So all I can do is sit back and admire your work.
Thank you for letting me know what is possible for someone with the right skills.
Ken B.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201544 is a reply to message #201536] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 09:46 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 09:24 |
... If you're concerned about an air bag blowing inside the skirt, use slots instead of holes for the upper hardware on the T skirts, and sandwich the two edges between a couple of rubber washers. They'll let go long before the inner liner....
|
I'd tend to agree and think even the captured screws will let go pretty quick. I'm not an engineer but do have a basic understanding that force follows the path of least resistance. I can see damage from debris but air pressure has lots of other paths. That said, I don't have any experience on this and Jim does.
All that said, I have no plans to go into production on these. It's pretty obvious that there is no money to be made on them. I made them for Larry because standard skirts won't work with his tires and he asked.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201559 is a reply to message #201544] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 12:03 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
" I made them for Larry because standard skirts won't work with his tires and he asked."
And tell the truth now, it was fun and a challenge, no?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 09:24
> ... If you're concerned about an air bag blowing inside the skirt, use slots instead of holes for the upper hardware on the T skirts, and sandwich the two edges between a couple of rubber washers. They'll let go long before the inner liner....
I'd tend to agree and think even the captured screws will let go pretty quick. I'm not an engineer but do have a basic understanding that force follows the path of least resistance. I can see damage from debris but air pressure has lots of other paths. That said, I don't have any experience on this and Jim does.
All that said, I have no plans to go into production on these. It's pretty obvious that there is no money to be made on them. I made them for Larry because standard skirts won't work with his tires and he asked.
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201561 is a reply to message #201559] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 12:11 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 12:03 |
" ...And tell the truth now, it was fun and a challenge, no?...
|
Any time I get to shape metal it is fun...unless I HAVE to do it in which case it is work and may or may not be enjoyable. As metal shaping challenges go, these skirts are about as simple as they get.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201578 is a reply to message #201497] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 14:06 |
Ron77
Messages: 91
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
Speaking of the plastic tee-skirts. I have them on mine and one has a crack
down low. Can this be repaired? All the material is there on both sides of
the crack.
Ron Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:30 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
Those old timers will remember TZE+ (Daren Paget) once offered aluminum T
skirts. They were a thing of beauty, built in the same fashion describer
below, Daren was really proud of them and for good reason. There were 2
problems with them however, those that knew Daren know he was driven to make
some awesome products but one day I asked him how much he was selling them
for and how long did it take him to make them. The had them priced at $95
with the similar fiberglass ones being sold for $50 he didn't think anyone
would buy them if they cost anymore. Then he said he probably had @ 15
hours in fabrication, welding and shaping.
Lets see, that's $6.33 per hour, adding no cost for materials which he said
there was probably $30 worth of aluminum and welding materials. So that
means he made @ $4.33 per hour in production? He thought for a moment and
said-- yea, but they are just so cool!
The 2nd problem is the original T skirt is a dynamic design. When an air
bag or tire goes, the T skirt is designed to "breakaway" to allow the
pressure to push outward as opposed to going inward and really messing up
the world. Even the fiberglass ones we only have available today are more
robust than the original plastic ones so when something goes wrong in the
wheel well, there will usually be damage to the SMC plastic wheel surround.
With an aluminum T skirt in place, bank that the outer wheel surround will
be yanked out and there may be wheel liner damage because the pressure was
held in.
I said all of that to say, it may not be the best use of all that technology
to make aluminum T skirts. The GM engineers I think really put some thought
into the original T skirt design. Personally, I like the look of no T
skirt, I like to show off the quad bag technology!
A reminder that to every modification they are always unexpected results and
though a good reason for doing something is just cause I can may be an
economic desaster,
Jim Bounds
--------------------------
________________________________
From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37
> ...
> What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large shrinking
tool like the ones you have....
John, you have successfully understood THE challenge in shaping metal.
Shaping metal involves shrinking, stretching, and smoothing (actually a
slight form of stretching)metal.
You are correct, hammer ON dolly thins the metal increasing the surface area
or a stretch.
Stretching is easy...shrinking is hard!
Well...harder anyway. The key thing to grasp is that metal flows under
pressure and it flows in the path of least resistance. It can be shrunk
with hand tools if you understand how to configure it and how to direct your
blows so the metal flows where you want it to flow.
Learning how to shape metal with basic tools is really key to learning the
craft. There is NOTHING that a fancy tool can do that you cannot do with
simple hand tools and time. In fact, until you understand the basics, I
preach that you should avoid getting more expensive tools because it will
only increase your scrap rate.
The "Lancaster" style shrinker and stretch is probably the first significant
tool you would want. The HF knockoff is actually pretty decent although you
will probably want to upgrade the dies if you are going to work aluminum.
[url=http://www.harborfreight.com/metal-shrinkerstretcher-set-68897.html]
I sell a 'MetalShaping 101' DVD but a friend has a better one. His name is
David Gardiner and his DVD can be found at: http://metalshapingzone.com
If you are really interested in learning metal shaping, I'd suggest you join
our site: http://allmetalshaping.com As the name implies, it is dedicated
to metalshaping. Be warned...it is another cult just like GMCNet.
Thanks for the kind words Ken, I'll show you some of this stuff in person at
Dothan.
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an
Art Deco car hauler
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201580 is a reply to message #201578] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 14:17 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
read here
http://gmcmotorhome.info/skin.html#SIDE
gene
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Ron77 <ron77@gltcinsurance.com> wrote:
> Speaking of the plastic tee-skirts. I have them on mine and one has a crack
> down low. Can this be repaired? All the material is there on both sides of
> the crack.
>
> Ron Johnson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:30 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
>
> Those old timers will remember TZE+ (Daren Paget) once offered aluminum T
> skirts. They were a thing of beauty, built in the same fashion describer
> below, Daren was really proud of them and for good reason. There were 2
> problems with them however, those that knew Daren know he was driven to
> make
> some awesome products but one day I asked him how much he was selling them
> for and how long did it take him to make them. The had them priced at $95
> with the similar fiberglass ones being sold for $50 he didn't think anyone
> would buy them if they cost anymore. Then he said he probably had @ 15
> hours in fabrication, welding and shaping.
>
> Lets see, that's $6.33 per hour, adding no cost for materials which he said
> there was probably $30 worth of aluminum and welding materials. So that
> means he made @ $4.33 per hour in production? He thought for a moment and
> said-- yea, but they are just so cool!
>
> The 2nd problem is the original T skirt is a dynamic design. When an air
> bag or tire goes, the T skirt is designed to "breakaway" to allow the
> pressure to push outward as opposed to going inward and really messing up
> the world. Even the fiberglass ones we only have available today are more
> robust than the original plastic ones so when something goes wrong in the
> wheel well, there will usually be damage to the SMC plastic wheel
> surround.
> With an aluminum T skirt in place, bank that the outer wheel surround will
> be yanked out and there may be wheel liner damage because the pressure was
> held in.
>
> I said all of that to say, it may not be the best use of all that
> technology
> to make aluminum T skirts. The GM engineers I think really put some
> thought
> into the original T skirt design. Personally, I like the look of no T
> skirt, I like to show off the quad bag technology!
>
> A reminder that to every modification they are always unexpected results
> and
> though a good reason for doing something is just cause I can may be an
> economic desaster,
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
>
>
>
> John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37
> > ...
> > What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large shrinking
> tool like the ones you have....
>
>
> John, you have successfully understood THE challenge in shaping metal.
> Shaping metal involves shrinking, stretching, and smoothing (actually a
> slight form of stretching)metal.
>
> You are correct, hammer ON dolly thins the metal increasing the surface
> area
> or a stretch.
>
> Stretching is easy...shrinking is hard!
>
> Well...harder anyway. The key thing to grasp is that metal flows under
> pressure and it flows in the path of least resistance. It can be shrunk
> with hand tools if you understand how to configure it and how to direct
> your
> blows so the metal flows where you want it to flow.
>
> Learning how to shape metal with basic tools is really key to learning the
> craft. There is NOTHING that a fancy tool can do that you cannot do with
> simple hand tools and time. In fact, until you understand the basics, I
> preach that you should avoid getting more expensive tools because it will
> only increase your scrap rate.
>
> The "Lancaster" style shrinker and stretch is probably the first
> significant
> tool you would want. The HF knockoff is actually pretty decent although
> you
> will probably want to upgrade the dies if you are going to work aluminum.
> [url=http://www.harborfreight.com/metal-shrinkerstretcher-set-68897.html]
>
> I sell a 'MetalShaping 101' DVD but a friend has a better one. His name is
> David Gardiner and his DVD can be found at: http://metalshapingzone.com
>
> If you are really interested in learning metal shaping, I'd suggest you
> join
> our site: http://allmetalshaping.com As the name implies, it is
> dedicated
> to metalshaping. Be warned...it is another cult just like GMCNet.
>
> Thanks for the kind words Ken, I'll show you some of this stuff in person
> at
> Dothan.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an
> Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201586 is a reply to message #201578] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 14:45 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yes they can be repaired easily with either a structural adhesive patch or plastic welding. If it I made out of abs like the ones I have seen its easy to weld.
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 13, 2013, at 12:06 PM, "Ron77" <ron77@gltcinsurance.com> wrote:
> Speaking of the plastic tee-skirts. I have them on mine and one has a crack
> down low. Can this be repaired? All the material is there on both sides of
> the crack.
>
> Ron Johnson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:30 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
>
> Those old timers will remember TZE+ (Daren Paget) once offered aluminum T
> skirts. They were a thing of beauty, built in the same fashion describer
> below, Daren was really proud of them and for good reason. There were 2
> problems with them however, those that knew Daren know he was driven to make
> some awesome products but one day I asked him how much he was selling them
> for and how long did it take him to make them. The had them priced at $95
> with the similar fiberglass ones being sold for $50 he didn't think anyone
> would buy them if they cost anymore. Then he said he probably had @ 15
> hours in fabrication, welding and shaping.
>
> Lets see, that's $6.33 per hour, adding no cost for materials which he said
> there was probably $30 worth of aluminum and welding materials. So that
> means he made @ $4.33 per hour in production? He thought for a moment and
> said-- yea, but they are just so cool!
>
> The 2nd problem is the original T skirt is a dynamic design. When an air
> bag or tire goes, the T skirt is designed to "breakaway" to allow the
> pressure to push outward as opposed to going inward and really messing up
> the world. Even the fiberglass ones we only have available today are more
> robust than the original plastic ones so when something goes wrong in the
> wheel well, there will usually be damage to the SMC plastic wheel surround.
> With an aluminum T skirt in place, bank that the outer wheel surround will
> be yanked out and there may be wheel liner damage because the pressure was
> held in.
>
> I said all of that to say, it may not be the best use of all that technology
> to make aluminum T skirts. The GM engineers I think really put some thought
> into the original T skirt design. Personally, I like the look of no T
> skirt, I like to show off the quad bag technology!
>
> A reminder that to every modification they are always unexpected results and
> though a good reason for doing something is just cause I can may be an
> economic desaster,
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
>
>
>
> John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37
>> ...
>> What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large shrinking
> tool like the ones you have....
>
>
> John, you have successfully understood THE challenge in shaping metal.
> Shaping metal involves shrinking, stretching, and smoothing (actually a
> slight form of stretching)metal.
>
> You are correct, hammer ON dolly thins the metal increasing the surface area
> or a stretch.
>
> Stretching is easy...shrinking is hard!
>
> Well...harder anyway. The key thing to grasp is that metal flows under
> pressure and it flows in the path of least resistance. It can be shrunk
> with hand tools if you understand how to configure it and how to direct your
> blows so the metal flows where you want it to flow.
>
> Learning how to shape metal with basic tools is really key to learning the
> craft. There is NOTHING that a fancy tool can do that you cannot do with
> simple hand tools and time. In fact, until you understand the basics, I
> preach that you should avoid getting more expensive tools because it will
> only increase your scrap rate.
>
> The "Lancaster" style shrinker and stretch is probably the first significant
> tool you would want. The HF knockoff is actually pretty decent although you
> will probably want to upgrade the dies if you are going to work aluminum.
> [url=http://www.harborfreight.com/metal-shrinkerstretcher-set-68897.html]
>
> I sell a 'MetalShaping 101' DVD but a friend has a better one. His name is
> David Gardiner and his DVD can be found at: http://metalshapingzone.com
>
> If you are really interested in learning metal shaping, I'd suggest you join
> our site: http://allmetalshaping.com As the name implies, it is dedicated
> to metalshaping. Be warned...it is another cult just like GMCNet.
>
> Thanks for the kind words Ken, I'll show you some of this stuff in person at
> Dothan.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an
> Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201606 is a reply to message #201580] |
Wed, 13 March 2013 17:16 |
Ron77
Messages: 91
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
Mine is a 77 Eleganza and the inside is smooth, but in looking at it closer,
I think I need to replace it. Any ideas about that?
Ron Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of gene Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:17 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
read here
http://gmcmotorhome.info/skin.html#SIDE
gene
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Ron77 <ron77@gltcinsurance.com> wrote:
> Speaking of the plastic tee-skirts. I have them on mine and one has a
> crack down low. Can this be repaired? All the material is there on
> both sides of the crack.
>
> Ron Johnson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:30 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
>
> Those old timers will remember TZE+ (Daren Paget) once offered
> aluminum T skirts. They were a thing of beauty, built in the same
> fashion describer below, Daren was really proud of them and for good
> reason. There were 2 problems with them however, those that knew
> Daren know he was driven to make some awesome products but one day I
> asked him how much he was selling them for and how long did it take
> him to make them. The had them priced at $95 with the similar
> fiberglass ones being sold for $50 he didn't think anyone would buy
> them if they cost anymore. Then he said he probably had @ 15 hours in
> fabrication, welding and shaping.
>
> Lets see, that's $6.33 per hour, adding no cost for materials which he
> said there was probably $30 worth of aluminum and welding materials.
> So that means he made @ $4.33 per hour in production? He thought for
> a moment and
> said-- yea, but they are just so cool!
>
> The 2nd problem is the original T skirt is a dynamic design. When an
> air bag or tire goes, the T skirt is designed to "breakaway" to allow
> the pressure to push outward as opposed to going inward and really
> messing up the world. Even the fiberglass ones we only have available
> today are more robust than the original plastic ones so when something
> goes wrong in the wheel well, there will usually be damage to the SMC
> plastic wheel surround.
> With an aluminum T skirt in place, bank that the outer wheel surround
> will be yanked out and there may be wheel liner damage because the
> pressure was held in.
>
> I said all of that to say, it may not be the best use of all that
> technology to make aluminum T skirts. The GM engineers I think really
> put some thought into the original T skirt design. Personally, I like
> the look of no T skirt, I like to show off the quad bag technology!
>
> A reminder that to every modification they are always unexpected
> results and though a good reason for doing something is just cause I
> can may be an economic desaster,
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
>
>
>
> John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 22:37
> > ...
> > What would be the technique to shrink the metal without a large
> > shrinking
> tool like the ones you have....
>
>
> John, you have successfully understood THE challenge in shaping metal.
> Shaping metal involves shrinking, stretching, and smoothing (actually
> a slight form of stretching)metal.
>
> You are correct, hammer ON dolly thins the metal increasing the
> surface area or a stretch.
>
> Stretching is easy...shrinking is hard!
>
> Well...harder anyway. The key thing to grasp is that metal flows
> under pressure and it flows in the path of least resistance. It can
> be shrunk with hand tools if you understand how to configure it and
> how to direct your blows so the metal flows where you want it to flow.
>
> Learning how to shape metal with basic tools is really key to learning
> the craft. There is NOTHING that a fancy tool can do that you cannot
> do with simple hand tools and time. In fact, until you understand the
> basics, I preach that you should avoid getting more expensive tools
> because it will only increase your scrap rate.
>
> The "Lancaster" style shrinker and stretch is probably the first
> significant tool you would want. The HF knockoff is actually pretty
> decent although you will probably want to upgrade the dies if you are
> going to work aluminum.
> [url=http://www.harborfreight.com/metal-shrinkerstretcher-set-68897.ht
> ml]
>
> I sell a 'MetalShaping 101' DVD but a friend has a better one. His
> name is David Gardiner and his DVD can be found at:
> http://metalshapingzone.com
>
> If you are really interested in learning metal shaping, I'd suggest
> you join our site: http://allmetalshaping.com As the name implies,
> it is dedicated to metalshaping. Be warned...it is another cult just
> like GMCNet.
>
> Thanks for the kind words Ken, I'll show you some of this stuff in
> person at Dothan.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied
> as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts [message #201631 is a reply to message #201559] |
Thu, 14 March 2013 06:20 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
See now that's the best reason to do something, because I can and I wanted to! Just be sure folks know that before they go try it, they may be doing it for another reason. Some modifications are done are done because there is no alternative, others because it's more cost effective and then there are those done just cause. I like the "just cause" stuff but make sure others know that,
Jim Bounds
----------------------
________________________________
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
" I made them for Larry because standard skirts won't work with his tires and he asked."
And tell the truth now, it was fun and a challenge, no?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum T Skirts
Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 09:24
> ... If you're concerned about an air bag blowing inside the skirt, use slots instead of holes for the upper hardware on the T skirts, and sandwich the two edges between a couple of rubber washers. They'll let go long before the inner liner....
I'd tend to agree and think even the captured screws will let go pretty quick. I'm not an engineer but do have a basic understanding that force follows the path of least resistance. I can see damage from debris but air pressure has lots of other paths. That said, I don't have any experience on this and Jim does.
All that said, I have no plans to go into production on these. It's pretty obvious that there is no money to be made on them. I made them for Larry because standard skirts won't work with his tires and he asked.
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Nov 15 13:49:54 CST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.06230 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
