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Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture (How Does It Control The Mix?)
Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197072] Fri, 01 February 2013 12:08 Go to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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I am really ignorant about propane power, so go ahead and laugh and scoff.
It seems to me that the throttle controls the amount of propane that enters the system, which immediately becomes a gas (if not already in that state before it gets to the throttle). What controls the amount of air that mixes with the propane? is it just a function of how fast the engine is running and pulling more air as it turns faster?
There was a thread here about starting a small engine with propane, and then there was a thread about squirting starting fluid in the 455 to enable it to clear an intersection if the fuel delivery system failed.
So I couldn't sleep last night and one thing that popped into my head was, if the fuel delivery system failed on the highway, and I had the parts to cobble together a line from the propane tank to the carb, could I get a few miles down the road to the next off-ramp, or would I run the risk of burning a valve or two due to a too lean mixture?
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197077 is a reply to message #197072] Fri, 01 February 2013 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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I had a couple of my service vans converted to propane back in the 80's. The propane came from the tank as a liquid then passed though a heat exchanger (using engine coolant) pressure regulator to change the liquid to a low pressure gas.

The carburetor had a linear cone shaped throttle that raised up to open for more air. I believe internally it just opened a regulator valve to control the amount of propane with the throttle position.

Nothing fancy, all mechanical back then.


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197085 is a reply to message #197072] Fri, 01 February 2013 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wally is currently offline  wally   United States
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A Hamilto wrote on Fri, 01 February 2013 12:08

I am really ignorant about propane power, so go ahead and laugh and scoff.
It seems to me that the throttle controls the amount of propane that enters the system, which immediately becomes a gas (if not already in that state before it gets to the throttle). What controls the amount of air that mixes with the propane? is it just a function of how fast the engine is running and pulling more air as it turns faster?
There was a thread here about starting a small engine with propane, and then there was a thread about squirting starting fluid in the 455 to enable it to clear an intersection if the fuel delivery system failed.
So I couldn't sleep last night and one thing that popped into my head was, if the fuel delivery system failed on the highway, and I had the parts to cobble together a line from the propane tank to the carb, could I get a few miles down the road to the next off-ramp, or would I run the risk of burning a valve or two due to a too lean mixture?

Here is a explanation of an Impco 425 propane mixer. Air flow controls the lpg valve position like Bruce wrote.
http://www.rasoenterprises.com/index.php/alternative-fuels/propane/54-carburetion/67-impco-fuel-mixtures
here is a video at full throttle (not mine)
http://youtu.be/vb9oqHr4U00
We have a mixer like this on a Olds 455 powering a dredge.


Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197087 is a reply to message #197085] Fri, 01 February 2013 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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wally wrote on Fri, 01 February 2013 14:21Here is a explanation of an Impco 425 propane mixer. Air flow controls the lpg valve position like Bruce wrote.
[url

http://www.rasoenterprises.com/index.php/alternative-fuels/propane/54-carburetion/67-impco-fuel-mixtures[/url]
here is a video at full throttle (not mine)
http://youtu.be/vb9oqHr4U00
We have a mixer like this on a Olds 455 powering a dredge.
It is beginning to look like the complexity of using your propane reservoir as a backup/temporary fuel supply (in case of gas fuel system failure) is more complicated than it might be worth.
If it was just a matter of running a line and pointing a nozzle at the carb inlet, that would be one thing, but having to install a full-blown replacement for the carb defeats the purpose of "quick and dirty".
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197098 is a reply to message #197087] Fri, 01 February 2013 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry is currently offline  Harry   Canada
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you do not have to replace the carb. I ran my 454 on dual fuel.
There was a ring gizmo that sat on top the carb. But you would still need the heat exchanger to warm up the propane.
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197122 is a reply to message #197087] Sat, 02 February 2013 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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wally wrote on Fri, 01 February 2013 14:21

Here is a explanation of an Impco 425 propane mixer. Air flow controls the lpg valve position like Bruce wrote.http://www.rasoenterprises.com/index.php/alternative-fuels/propane/54-carburetion/67-impco-fuel-mixtures
here is a video at full throttle (not mine)
We have a mixer like this on a Olds 455 powering a dredge.
http://youtu.be/vb9oqHr4U00

A Hamilto wrote on Fri, 01 February 2013 15:45

It is beginning to look like the complexity of using your propane reservoir as a backup/temporary fuel supply (in case of gas fuel system failure) is more complicated than it might be worth.
If it was just a matter of running a line and pointing a nozzle at the carb inlet, that would be one thing, but having to install a full-blown replacement for the carb defeats the purpose of "quick and dirty".

Though the idea looks attractive, the immediate problem is that the engine systems need more propane than can be pulled out of a tank as a gas and so must pull liquid and evaporate it outside the tank. Believe it or not, there are systems that pull both liquid and gas from the same LPG tank, but this is not something that can be retro-fit with any ease.

On a very few unfortunate occasions, I tried to pull gas out of an LP tank at those rates. It only lasted until the entire tanks frosted up.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197123 is a reply to message #197122] Sat, 02 February 2013 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 02 February 2013 09:58

Though the idea looks attractive, the immediate problem is that the engine systems need more propane than can be pulled out of a tank as a gas and so must pull liquid and evaporate it outside the tank. ...
Well that settles that. If the volume of propane gas was enough to crawl along at any speed it might get you to the next exit.
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197124 is a reply to message #197072] Sat, 02 February 2013 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rcjordan   United States
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JimB is shipping LP conversions to Europe. I'm guessing the last one was that rear-door yellow one that was on his lot last December. I believe Jim said the interior was gutted and he fitted the coach with a 47 gallon tank.

SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197147 is a reply to message #197124] Sat, 02 February 2013 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   Australia
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G'day,

I have a Caddy 500 here in Sydney that was built to be run on AutoGas (60% LPG 40% Butane). Petrol here sells for around $1.40 per liter whereas AutoGas sells for around $0.70. Even though you use about 10-15% more you're still ahead dollar wise. There are lots of stations that sell Autogas. After much consultation with Mark Bennett (serious motorhomer) I decided it should be setup to run on dual fuel. That introduces a number of problems. To get the max power out of Autogas (Octane rating of 100) the compression in the Caddy 500 was set at 10.5 to 1. When running on petrol I'll have to use Premium (100 Octane). The ignition advance curve for petrol and AutoGas is different and for optimum performance electronic ignition control should be used. The AutoGas adapter is installed between the air filter and the carb so the engine hatch must be raised.

IIRC the LPG powered GMC JimB built was for a Pomme (Aussie for Brit) and has been sitting in his lot for YEARS.



Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: Question About Propane Conversions And Air/Fuel Mixture [message #197148 is a reply to message #197147] Sat, 02 February 2013 17:46 Go to previous message
rcjordan   United States
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Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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>YEARS

And it looked like it.


SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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