Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert
| Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195445] |
Sun, 13 January 2013 09:23  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I discussed my problem yesterday with Matt Collie in person at the Gilmore museum and got some ideas. Now I'm looking for a person who has some experience or hands on knowledge.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195478 is a reply to message #195468] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 01:59  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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You are going to wish you hadn't asked after reading all of this.
Here is the deal. My daughter is looking at a house and we are ready to close on it but it has an existing 2" artesian well. The house was built in 1971 and they drove a 2" well at that time. In 1990 that well quit. This casing rotted out and eventually clay settled in and sealed the well. The well was replaced with another 2" well in 1990. That replacement is now 23 years old.
The problem is in this area 2" (steel cased) wells do not have a very good history of lasting more than 20 years. The 2" well at my home (not artesian)lasted less than 10 years. I replaced it with a 4" plastic one about 30 years ago.
The area where this house is all Artesian with about 20 PSI of pressure and over a 40 foot head. Other than at this location, artesian wells are almost unheard of around here.
No one in the surrounding area has a rig to drive a 2" well any more and 2" parts are hard to find. Everybody drills 4" PVC or larger wells these days.
The difference is between driving and drilling. 2" wells are driven while 4" or larger wells are drilled over size and a plastic casing slid down the hole. Then grout is packed down the hole between the casing and the earth to seal the casing in place.
The drilling or driving depth to that aquifer is around 105 to 115 feet. The top 5 feet is top soil where all of the ground (Surface) flows. The next 80 or so feet is clay and the remaining distance is in the sand based aquifer. There is no bed rock on the way down to the aquifer.
When drilling, as you punch through to the aquifer with a 6-8" hole you immediately get water flow (an artesian fountain) coming up the hole at 350 to 400 gallons per minute. Working against the flow, 100+ feet of casing and screen needs to be installed down the hole and a sealant (usually Bentonite grout or concrete) placed between the casing and the surrounding earth. It takes 3 to 5 hours to set the sealer. During that time the 350 - 400 gallons per minute of water flow washes the sealer out if you can even get it down there in the first place. So all of that excess water needs to be disposed of. That is somewhere between 63,000 and 120,000 gallons of water.
The question is how to drill the hole and stop the water flow on the outside of the casing so grout can be packed around the outside of the casing and be allowed to set up. Also a second nice thing would be to be able to shut off the water flow during this process so we do not have to dispose of so much excess water.
I calculate that the upward force on the casing will be somewhere between 250 and 400 pounds if the pipe is capped and water from the inside of the casing not be allowed to run off.
So I'm looking for some innovative way to get this case sealing accomplished or for someone who has done this before. Matt had some ideas of using some type of balloon / bladder device and inflating it with water or air to temporarily seal the casing to hole area while the grout is being set. He also suggested that I find someone in the oil drilling industry see how they do it. Oil drilling is not done around here.
I have a good friend in the water well drilling business. He successfully did drill one in that subdivision 10 or 15 years ago. He absolutely refuses to go in there again. To our knowledge no one else has ever been successful since then. He spent over a week on it.
In another case a different well driller spent almost 2 weeks and finally had to call a concrete pump truck to pump concrete down the hole to seal it up. He got sued by 3 neighbors for water damage. He lost over $10,000 and never got a well operational. His insurance covered the water damage claims.
In my friends case he had to sand bag 5 neighbors driveways to force the excess water off down the street to a creek about a block away. In our case the creek is near by off of the back of the property and on an adjacent 20 acre forested property. Sand bagging, though necessary, would probably would not be as much of an issue here.
So my question is how do we do this? We have called about 10 local drillers and no one will touch this project. The original owner is deceased and the wife is living out of state with a daughter. So if I want to proceed, I need to come up with a solution.
My solution is to build a 50 foot hill and park the drilling rig on top of it. Then drill down from there because at 50 feet the well will no longer be a flowing artesian one. After the drilling is done I would remove the hill and maybe use the 50 foot above ground pipe for a TV antenna or something.
I've got some other ideas with spray foam etc.
I know my solutions are really not practical.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195479 is a reply to message #195478] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 02:37 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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rent a fire truck and attach a fire hose that goes to the truck and then hose it where you want it to go. this can valve it and stream it in
some sort of control maybe. my friend has a fire truck. rent a used fire truck and hose from someone, we bought his for 2K at a fire auction.
I am not sure how this would help, but it is just an idea of control. a hose to the truck if attached to the top of the 4inch top, goes to the truck it can go out
the other side by hose where ever you run it. Plus you have an on and off valve. It would hold that psi. i think. we spray it out 30 yards with the truck pump.
used fire hose is not that expensive at auction we bought a lot for very little.
i do not think this helps but it is an idea.
mickey
77palm beach
anaheim ca.
On Jan 13, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>
> You are going to wish you hadn't asked after reading all of this.
>
> Here is the deal. My daughter is looking at a house and we are ready to close on it but it has an existing 2" artesian well. The house was built in 1971 and they drove a 2" well at that time. In 1990 that well quit. This casing rotted out and eventually clay settled in and sealed the well. The well was replaced with another 2" well in 1990. That replacement is now 23 years old.
>
> The problem is in this area 2" (steel cased) wells do not have a very good history of lasting more than 20 years. The 2" well at my home (not artesian)lasted less than 10 years. I replaced it with a 4" plastic one about 30 years ago.
>
> The area where this house is all Artesian with about 20 PSI of pressure and over a 40 foot head. Other than at this location, artesian wells are almost unheard of around here.
>
> No one in the surrounding area has a rig to drive a 2" well any more and 2" parts are hard to find. Everybody drills 4" PVC or larger wells these days.
>
> The difference is between driving and drilling. 2" wells are driven while 4" or larger wells are drilled over size and a plastic casing slid down the hole. Then grout is packed down the hole between the casing and the earth to seal the casing in place.
>
> The drilling or driving depth to that aquifer is around 105 to 115 feet. The top 5 feet is top soil where all of the ground (Surface) flows. The next 80 or so feet is clay and the remaining distance is in the sand based aquifer. There is no bed rock on the way down to the aquifer.
>
> When drilling, as you punch through to the aquifer with a 6-8" hole you immediately get water flow (an artesian fountain) coming up the hole at 350 to 400 gallons per minute. Working against the flow, 100+ feet of casing and screen needs to be installed down the hole and a sealant (usually Bentonite grout or concrete) placed between the casing and the surrounding earth. It takes 3 to 5 hours to set the sealer. During that time the 350 - 400 gallons per minute of water flow washes the sealer out if you can even get it down there in the first place. So all of that excess water needs to be disposed of. That is somewhere between 63,000 and 120,000 gallons of water.
>
> The question is how to drill the hole and stop the water flow on the outside of the casing so grout can be packed around the outside of the casing and be allowed to set up. Also a second nice thing would be to be able to shut off the water flow during this process so we do not have to dispose of so much excess water.
>
> I calculate that the upward force on the casing will be somewhere between 250 and 400 pounds if the pipe is capped and water from the inside of the casing not be allowed to run off.
>
> So I'm looking for some innovative way to get this case sealing accomplished or for someone who has done this before. Matt had some ideas of using some type of balloon / bladder device and inflating it with water or air to temporarily seal the casing to hole area while the grout is being set. He also suggested that I find someone in the oil drilling industry see how they do it. Oil drilling is not done around here.
>
> I have a good friend in the water well drilling business. He successfully did drill one in that subdivision 10 or 15 years ago. He absolutely refuses to go in there again. To our knowledge no one else has ever been successful since then. He spent over a week on it.
>
> In another case a different well driller spent almost 2 weeks and finally had to call a concrete pump truck to pump concrete down the hole to seal it up. He got sued by 3 neighbors for water damage. He lost over $10,000 and never got a well operational. His insurance covered the water damage claims.
>
> In my friends case he had to sand bag 5 neighbors driveways to force the excess water off down the street to a creek about a block away. In our case the creek is near by off of the back of the property and on an adjacent 20 acre forested property. Sand bagging, though necessary, would probably would not be as much of an issue here.
>
> So my question is how do we do this? We have called about 10 local drillers and no one will touch this project. The original owner is deceased and the wife is living out of state with a daughter. So if I want to proceed, I need to come up with a solution.
>
> My solution is to build a 50 foot hill and park the drilling rig on top of it. Then drill down from there because at 50 feet the well will no longer be a flowing artesian one. After the drilling is done I would remove the hill and maybe use the 50 foot above ground pipe for a TV antenna or something.
>
> I've got some other ideas with spray foam etc.
>
> I know my solutions are really not practical.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195480 is a reply to message #195479] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 04:22 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| mickeysss wrote on Mon, 14 January 2013 02:37 |
rent a fire truck and attach a fire hose that goes to the truck and then hose it where you want it to go. this can valve it and stream it in
some sort of control maybe. my friend has a fire truck. rent a used fire truck and hose from someone, we bought his for 2K at a fire auction.
I am not sure how this would help, but it is just an idea of control. a hose to the truck if attached to the top of the 4inch top, goes to the truck it can go out
the other side by hose where ever you run it. Plus you have an on and off valve. It would hold that psi. i think. we spray it out 30 yards with the truck pump.
used fire hose is not that expensive at auction we bought a lot for very little.
i do not think this helps but it is an idea.
mickey
77palm beach
anaheim ca.
On Jan 13, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>
> You are going to wish you hadn't asked after reading all of this.
>
> Here is the deal. My daughter is looking at a house and we are ready to close on it but it has an existing 2" artesian well. The house was built in 1971 and they drove a 2" well at that time. In 1990 that well quit. This casing rotted out and eventually clay settled in and sealed the well. The well was replaced with another 2" well in 1990. That replacement is now 23 years old.
>
> The problem is in this area 2" (steel cased) wells do not have a very good history of lasting more than 20 years. The 2" well at my home (not artesian)lasted less than 10 years. I replaced it with a 4" plastic one about 30 years ago.
>
> The area where this house is all Artesian with about 20 PSI of pressure and over a 40 foot head. Other than at this location, artesian wells are almost unheard of around here.
>
> No one in the surrounding area has a rig to drive a 2" well any more and 2" parts are hard to find. Everybody drills 4" PVC or larger wells these days.
>
> The difference is between driving and drilling. 2" wells are driven while 4" or larger wells are drilled over size and a plastic casing slid down the hole. Then grout is packed down the hole between the casing and the earth to seal the casing in place.
>
> The drilling or driving depth to that aquifer is around 105 to 115 feet. The top 5 feet is top soil where all of the ground (Surface) flows. The next 80 or so feet is clay and the remaining distance is in the sand based aquifer. There is no bed rock on the way down to the aquifer.
>
> When drilling, as you punch through to the aquifer with a 6-8" hole you immediately get water flow (an artesian fountain) coming up the hole at 350 to 400 gallons per minute. Working against the flow, 100+ feet of casing and screen needs to be installed down the hole and a sealant (usually Bentonite grout or concrete) placed between the casing and the surrounding earth. It takes 3 to 5 hours to set the sealer. During that time the 350 - 400 gallons per minute of water flow washes the sealer out if you can even get it down there in the first place. So all of that excess water needs to be disposed of. That is somewhere between 63,000 and 120,000 gallons of water.
>
> The question is how to drill the hole and stop the water flow on the outside of the casing so grout can be packed around the outside of the casing and be allowed to set up. Also a second nice thing would be to be able to shut off the water flow during this process so we do not have to dispose of so much excess water.
>
> I calculate that the upward force on the casing will be somewhere between 250 and 400 pounds if the pipe is capped and water from the inside of the casing not be allowed to run off.
>
> So I'm looking for some innovative way to get this case sealing accomplished or for someone who has done this before. Matt had some ideas of using some type of balloon / bladder device and inflating it with water or air to temporarily seal the casing to hole area while the grout is being set. He also suggested that I find someone in the oil drilling industry see how they do it. Oil drilling is not done around here.
>
> I have a good friend in the water well drilling business. He successfully did drill one in that subdivision 10 or 15 years ago. He absolutely refuses to go in there again. To our knowledge no one else has ever been successful since then. He spent over a week on it.
>
> In another case a different well driller spent almost 2 weeks and finally had to call a concrete pump truck to pump concrete down the hole to seal it up. He got sued by 3 neighbors for water damage. He lost over $10,000 and never got a well operational. His insurance covered the water damage claims.
>
> In my friends case he had to sand bag 5 neighbors driveways to force the excess water off down the street to a creek about a block away. In our case the creek is near by off of the back of the property and on an adjacent 20 acre forested property. Sand bagging, though necessary, would probably would not be as much of an issue here.
>
> So my question is how do we do this? We have called about 10 local drillers and no one will touch this project. The original owner is deceased and the wife is living out of state with a daughter. So if I want to proceed, I need to come up with a solution.
>
> My solution is to build a 50 foot hill and park the drilling rig on top of it. Then drill down from there because at 50 feet the well will no longer be a flowing artesian one. After the drilling is done I would remove the hill and maybe use the 50 foot above ground pipe for a TV antenna or something.
>
> I've got some other ideas with spray foam etc.
>
> I know my solutions are really not practical.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
|
Mickey, I need to prevent the flow of water up the outside of the casing until I get the sealant to set between the casing and the earth. Yes the water coming up the inside is also an issue but can be controlled after the casing is sealed in the ground. Of the estimated 350 to 400 gallon per minute, I do not know how much is coming up the inside of the pipe vs. the out side of the pump. A fire truck sure could move put the water where I want it to go (the creek). I use to work with a guy who had a fire truck. I haven't talked to him in years. I'll need to look him up. I wonder how much water a truck can move per minute. I wonder if I could sleeve the hole and force the grout and water back down the side of the casing with a fire truck.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195482 is a reply to message #195445] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 05:24 |
GMC Cruse
Messages: 606
Registered: June 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Sounds like you need to find someone with an :inflatable grout packer".
From the State of Michigan website:
"INFLATABLE PACKER USE
The constant upward flow of an artesian well is an obstacle to the use of slurrytype
grouts. Water flow can rapidly dilute the grout unless the grout application
rate is higher than the flow rate. Many conventional grouting machines are
undersized for handling large flows. In some shallow flowing wells with high
artesian heads, the weight of the cement is not high enough to overcome the head
and a mechanical seal is needed to stop the flow so it can be cemented. A device
that is useful for flowing well work, but not commonly used in Michigan, is the
commercially-available inflatable grout packer. The packer is set just out of the
end of the casing, on a pipe string within the casing. A mechanical seal is created
between the casing and borehole when the packer is inflated with compressed air.
Once the flow is stopped or significantly reduced, grout is placed through a grout
pipe(s) above shale traps (also called formation packers) located just above the
inflatable packer. After the grout sets, the packer is deflated and removed
through the interior of the well casing."
Mike K.
'75 PB
Southeast Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195487 is a reply to message #195445] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 07:25 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Ken, I grew up in the 'fountain city' Prattville, AL where artesian wells were ramopant. Haven't gone looking for one in many years tho. Most of the houses in the mill village had what we called 'flowing wells' which simply ran water into the kitchen sinks continuously. A little park on the main stereet actually had two artesian well drinking fountains. Any more, pollution is so rampant, I'd test the water before I drank it.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:23 AM
Subject: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert
I discussed my problem yesterday with Matt Collie in person at the Gilmore museum and got some ideas. Now I'm looking for a person who has some experience or hands on knowledge.
Ken B.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195489 is a reply to message #195480] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 07:34 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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call your local fireman, it blows really hard. The fact that you can control 400 gallons in about 10 minutes at full force i think. The pump
is run by the cummings engine on ours; If you were around here you could use it no charge, it just sets there all the time now waiting
for a fire to come and my friend has foam to shoot with the truck all over his house and then he runs for it. THe foam is suppose to protect even wood
with the air in the bubbles etc. It is used for airplanes. He has a pump house and well, but no need for what yo are getting at. I think the truck
will match the pressures you are working with though. Any old truck is as good as a new one as far as the pumps forces go, it seems. This one has a 400
gallon tank and they say just spray a little at a time for it will empty in 5 to 10 minutes full force. Sounds like a train. has a jake brake and really has all the
lights i cannot believe we got it for $2000 dollars at auction. IT is called a foam truck and worked on many airport fires. foam 10 is it's name.
you mite put a 2 inch hose in the middle of the 4 inch hose - a two inch coming out and pump in on the big hose around it with a y that let you put concrete
in the big hose just as it pumps into the pipe. YOu may have to make some fittings some how. just an idea. You can have two size hoses blowing out
water at once, some how put the 2 inch through the side of the 4 inch with a coupling, then blow them both down the hole stopping the 2 inch from
coming up and putting concrete in another side entrance on the 4 inch that has a concrete flow or something like that. i have no idea what i am talking
about. I think you can have some attachments 2 and 4 inch both working at once and they can both blow and suck at the same time. I know you can suck
water out of a lake and put it in the tank as you blow water out the other side on a fire.
mickey
77 palm beach
anaheim ca.
On Jan 14, 2013, at 2:22 AM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>
> mickeysss wrote on Mon, 14 January 2013 02:37
>> rent a fire truck and attach a fire hose that goes to the truck and then hose it where you want it to go. this can valve it and stream it in
>>
>> some sort of control maybe. my friend has a fire truck. rent a used fire truck and hose from someone, we bought his for 2K at a fire auction.
>>
>> I am not sure how this would help, but it is just an idea of control. a hose to the truck if attached to the top of the 4inch top, goes to the truck it can go out
>>
>> the other side by hose where ever you run it. Plus you have an on and off valve. It would hold that psi. i think. we spray it out 30 yards with the truck pump.
>>
>> used fire hose is not that expensive at auction we bought a lot for very little.
>>
>> i do not think this helps but it is an idea.
>>
>> mickey
>>
>> 77palm beach
>>
>> anaheim ca.
>>
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are going to wish you hadn't asked after reading all of this.
>>>
>>> Here is the deal. My daughter is looking at a house and we are ready to close on it but it has an existing 2" artesian well. The house was built in 1971 and they drove a 2" well at that time. In 1990 that well quit. This casing rotted out and eventually clay settled in and sealed the well. The well was replaced with another 2" well in 1990. That replacement is now 23 years old.
>>>
>>> The problem is in this area 2" (steel cased) wells do not have a very good history of lasting more than 20 years. The 2" well at my home (not artesian)lasted less than 10 years. I replaced it with a 4" plastic one about 30 years ago.
>>>
>>> The area where this house is all Artesian with about 20 PSI of pressure and over a 40 foot head. Other than at this location, artesian wells are almost unheard of around here.
>>>
>>> No one in the surrounding area has a rig to drive a 2" well any more and 2" parts are hard to find. Everybody drills 4" PVC or larger wells these days.
>>>
>>> The difference is between driving and drilling. 2" wells are driven while 4" or larger wells are drilled over size and a plastic casing slid down the hole. Then grout is packed down the hole between the casing and the earth to seal the casing in place.
>>>
>>> The drilling or driving depth to that aquifer is around 105 to 115 feet. The top 5 feet is top soil where all of the ground (Surface) flows. The next 80 or so feet is clay and the remaining distance is in the sand based aquifer. There is no bed rock on the way down to the aquifer.
>>>
>>> When drilling, as you punch through to the aquifer with a 6-8" hole you immediately get water flow (an artesian fountain) coming up the hole at 350 to 400 gallons per minute. Working against the flow, 100+ feet of casing and screen needs to be installed down the hole and a sealant (usually Bentonite grout or concrete) placed between the casing and the surrounding earth. It takes 3 to 5 hours to set the sealer. During that time the 350 - 400 gallons per minute of water flow washes the sealer out if you can even get it down there in the first place. So all of that excess water needs to be disposed of. That is somewhere between 63,000 and 120,000 gallons of water.
>>>
>>> The question is how to drill the hole and stop the water flow on the outside of the casing so grout can be packed around the outside of the casing and be allowed to set up. Also a second nice thing would be to be able to shut off the water flow during this process so we do not have to dispose of so much excess water.
>>>
>>> I calculate that the upward force on the casing will be somewhere between 250 and 400 pounds if the pipe is capped and water from the inside of the casing not be allowed to run off.
>>>
>>> So I'm looking for some innovative way to get this case sealing accomplished or for someone who has done this before. Matt had some ideas of using some type of balloon / bladder device and inflating it with water or air to temporarily seal the casing to hole area while the grout is being set. He also suggested that I find someone in the oil drilling industry see how they do it. Oil drilling is not done around here.
>>>
>>> I have a good friend in the water well drilling business. He successfully did drill one in that subdivision 10 or 15 years ago. He absolutely refuses to go in there again. To our knowledge no one else has ever been successful since then. He spent over a week on it.
>>>
>>> In another case a different well driller spent almost 2 weeks and finally had to call a concrete pump truck to pump concrete down the hole to seal it up. He got sued by 3 neighbors for water damage. He lost over $10,000 and never got a well operational. His insurance covered the water damage claims.
>>>
>>> In my friends case he had to sand bag 5 neighbors driveways to force the excess water off down the street to a creek about a block away. In our case the creek is near by off of the back of the property and on an adjacent 20 acre forested property. Sand bagging, though necessary, would probably would not be as much of an issue here.
>>>
>>> So my question is how do we do this? We have called about 10 local drillers and no one will touch this project. The original owner is deceased and the wife is living out of state with a daughter. So if I want to proceed, I need to come up with a solution.
>>>
>>> My solution is to build a 50 foot hill and park the drilling rig on top of it. Then drill down from there because at 50 feet the well will no longer be a flowing artesian one. After the drilling is done I would remove the hill and maybe use the 50 foot above ground pipe for a TV antenna or something.
>>>
>>> I've got some other ideas with spray foam etc.
>>>
>>> I know my solutions are really not practical.
>>> --
>>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>>> 76 Palm Beach
>>> Hebron, Indiana
>
> Mickey, I need to prevent the flow of water up the outside of the casing until I get the sealant to set between the casing and the earth. Yes the water coming up the inside is also an issue but can be controlled after the casing is sealed in the ground. Of the estimated 350 to 400 gallon per minute, I do not know how much is coming up the inside of the pipe vs. the out side of the pump. A fire truck sure could move put the water where I want it to go (the creek). I use to work with a guy who had a fire truck. I haven't talked to him in years. I'll need to look him up. I wonder how much water a truck can move per minute. I wonder if I could sleeve the hole and force the grout and water back down the side of the casing with a fire truck.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195491 is a reply to message #195482] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 08:57 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
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| GMC Cruse wrote on Mon, 14 January 2013 05:24 |
Sounds like you need to find someone with an :inflatable grout packer".
From the State of Michigan website:
"INFLATABLE PACKER USE
The constant upward flow of an artesian well is an obstacle to the use of slurrytype
grouts. Water flow can rapidly dilute the grout unless the grout application
rate is higher than the flow rate. Many conventional grouting machines are
undersized for handling large flows. In some shallow flowing wells with high
artesian heads, the weight of the cement is not high enough to overcome the head
and a mechanical seal is needed to stop the flow so it can be cemented. A device
that is useful for flowing well work, but not commonly used in Michigan, is the
commercially-available inflatable grout packer. The packer is set just out of the
end of the casing, on a pipe string within the casing. A mechanical seal is created
between the casing and borehole when the packer is inflated with compressed air.
Once the flow is stopped or significantly reduced, grout is placed through a grout
pipe(s) above shale traps (also called formation packers) located just above the
inflatable packer. After the grout sets, the packer is deflated and removed
through the interior of the well casing."
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Now that is an interesting one to look into. I'll have to look into it some more. I read your posting 3 times and I'm still not sure how it works. What I can not understand is how something inserted in to the center of the pipe seals the outside of the pipe where the grout goes. I'll have to read some more.
Thanks
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195501 is a reply to message #195478] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 10:06 |
Dave Mumert
Messages: 272
Registered: February 2004
Location: Olds, AB, Canada
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Ken
My grandfather and his son-in-law drove an artesian well down 200 feet by
hand. That was probably 40 years ago so they didn't have any powered
equipment to help.
Have you thought of driving your own well? The point and pipe are easy to
get and you could probably rent or borrow a fence post driver to do the
heavy work. Why not splurge and us stainless steel pipe?
Geothermal contractors sometimes use driven wells.
Dave Mumert
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| Re: [GMCnet] Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195578 is a reply to message #195524] |
Tue, 15 January 2013 05:06 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Hal Kading wrote on Mon, 14 January 2013 13:56 |
Ken,
How about stopping drilling just short of the aquifer, then grout the casing. After it is set up hand drive the rest of the way with the well point. Put some kind of seal on the 2" pipe above the well point before starting it down the casing. Probably need to put a flange above the seal so it locates the seal where you want it in the casing.
Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM
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I like that idea. I'll talk to my well drilling friend about it.
Today I met the man that drove in the old well 20+ years ago. He tested and blessed the well. He said it was running at about 10 gallon per minute in the house. When I asked how much longer it would last he said 3 months, 3 years, or 30 years. When I asked if he would drill or drive a new one the response was "no" but to contact my friend Paul who has drilled the only successful 4" well in the area. He did not know at the time that I knew Paul. Of course my friend has already said he would never go in there again.
The search continues.
I'll pursue your idea.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Non GMC - I'm looking for an artesian water well expert [message #195736 is a reply to message #195445] |
Thu, 17 January 2013 05:31 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Just a quick update. We walked away from that house this morning. Heather and I just did not want to go through all of the effort and potential expense of replacing the existing well. Now we are looking at two others this afternoon in the same area. They are 105 feet higher in elevation so there is no artesion problem. The head at the first location was a little over 40 feet which was confirmed with 3 different well drillers. That means in the new locations the water lever ought to be around 60 feet below the ground. We would still have to drill about 90 feet to puncture into the sand based aquifer
I talked to another well driller this morning. He had one that he put in that had a flow of 1600 GPM. He said he has seen as little as 300 GPM up to the 1600 GPM one. On the one that ran at 1600 GPM, he charged $20,000 to get it installed and under control. He said it ran for 6 days before he got it shut down. He also will not go back there again.
Thanks for all of the help and ideas. We just did not want to take on another large project.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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