Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Front end steering problem
| Front end steering problem [message #194641] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 17:28  |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I have checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194643 is a reply to message #194641] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 17:56  |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I had a similar experience with my truck a few years ago and it was a damaged steering stabilizer. Maybe remove it and repeat the tight turn drill?
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> So, here's what happened.
> I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I
ha
> ve checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
>
> Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
> --
> Larry :)
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194645 is a reply to message #194641] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 18:14 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Larry, never heard of that so pure speculation.. Maybe the steering box is not centered or the box has been changed with a dfferent lock to lock and going hard against the stops and binding something. Maybe in the box? I think the internal stops in the box are suppose to hit before the frame stops? When the coach straightened out was it sudden or smooth? Could you feel it in the steering wheel? Did you put it hard against the r turn stop when you had it up?
| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:28 |
So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I have checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194646 is a reply to message #194641] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 18:13 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Larry, either steering stabilizer or the constant velocity joint located
just below the end of the steering column and above the steering box. When
they need greased they will do just what you have described. BE SURE TO USE
CONSTANT VELOCITY GREASE IN THAT JOINT. Regular chassis lube will do the
same thing.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Jan 2, 2013 3:28 PM, "Larry" <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> So, here's what happened.
> I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach
> straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left
> to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard
> to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just
> straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a
> parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard
> right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another
> hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the
> right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to
> do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the
> lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling
> forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove
> another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in
> Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I ha
> ve checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts
> that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A
> frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the
> wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see
> that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper
> ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding
> noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
>
> Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it?
> Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
> --
> Larry :)
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194651 is a reply to message #194643] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 19:46 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Sully,
That is one thing I did not look at, but will check it tomorrow.
| sgltrac wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 17:56 |
I had a similar experience with my truck a few years ago and it was a damaged steering stabilizer. Maybe remove it and repeat the tight turn drill?
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> So, here's what happened.
> I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I
ha
> ve checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
>
> Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194652 is a reply to message #194641] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 19:49 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:28 |
So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I have checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
|
OK Larry,
Believe it or not, I have seen similar failures, but none so tame as this one.....
The problem is probably inside the steering box. Check everything else first because you cannot repair the steering box without a lot of special knowledge and tools.
The complete story:
The steering box is actually called a mechanical input hydraulic servo. (The full description is a lot longer and will add nothing.) What that means is that when it has hydraulic power available, it will repeat the input but with much greater force available. The hydraulic parts don't know (or care) where they are in the stroke, all they know is that force is being applied to the input and the output hasn't moved. So, it uses the hydraulic power to adjust its position to match input and when it does, the input force (because you are holding the steering wheel where you want it to be) goes away and it stops trying to move.
How does this Happen??
That input force that you exert on the steering wheel goes into the steering box through a valve that is held on center (zero differential pressure) by a torsion bar (like in the front suspension but a lot smaller). One end of the valve and torsion bar is attached to the input shaft (steering wheel) and the other end is attached to the output end of the hydraulic drive. So, when the bar gets wound one way or the other, the valve comes off-center and the hydraulic pressure goes where it needs to go to make the two ends match again...
See this coming yet?
What has probably happened in your case is that one of the ends of the torsion element has lost its purchase and so comes off center when highly loaded. Fortunately, everything has enough negative feedback so it is still controllable. Because you inputting a force, the torsion element wants to go back where it should be. This may not remain to be case.
Now, Big Note of Caution.....
If you try to move the front end without hydraulic power available, all the force to do so has to go through the torsion element and -- IT MAY NOT BE UP TO THE TASK!!
So, After you have verified the the steering box is the issue, if you have to move the coach do not steer with more than one finger and Do NOT Hit the travel end stops.
I have never tried to diagnose this outside of a lab, but if you jack up the front and hit an end stop with the engine running, I would expect the servo to run away. With the engine off, you may be able to feel a slip in the travel that did not used to be there. As said, I have seen this failure. One case was reported that the steering was too easy and the wheel could be in a number of different positions when the vehicle was started. We found the the torsion element had failed completely.
I hope that this is a help and that you travel ends safely.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194653 is a reply to message #194646] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 19:50 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim,
Have you actually had this happen to you and found that it was the steering CV? When I rebuilt the steering several years ago, I did redo that CV and greased it with Mobile 1. That is what everyone was suggesting at the time. I also took the time to drill in a zirk so I could shoot it with grease every time I do a grease job.
| James Hupy wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:13 |
Larry, either steering stabilizer or the constant velocity joint located
just below the end of the steering column and above the steering box. When
they need greased they will do just what you have described. BE SURE TO USE
CONSTANT VELOCITY GREASE IN THAT JOINT. Regular chassis lube will do the
same thing.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Jan 2, 2013 3:28 PM, "Larry" <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> So, here's what happened.
> I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach
> straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left
> to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard
> to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just
> straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a
> parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard
> right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another
> hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the
> right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to
> do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the
> lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling
> forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove
> another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in
> Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I ha
> ve checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts
> that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A
> frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the
> wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see
> that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper
> ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding
> noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
>
> Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it?
> Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194654 is a reply to message #194652] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:03 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
HI Matt,
So, how do I verify that the steering box is the issue? By making sure that everything else is alright, or are there other diagnostic procedures to follow?
| Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 19:49 |
| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:28 |
So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I have checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
|
OK Larry,
Believe it or not, I have seen similar failures, but none so tame as this one.....
The problem is probably inside the steering box. Check everything else first because you cannot repair the steering box without a lot of special knowledge and tools.
The complete story:
The steering box is actually called a mechanical input hydraulic servo. (The full description is a lot longer and will add nothing.) What that means is that when it has hydraulic power available, it will repeat the input but with much greater force available. The hydraulic parts don't know (or care) where they are in the stroke, all they know is that force is being applied to the input and the output hasn't moved. So, it uses the hydraulic power to adjust its position to match input and when it does, the input force (because you are holding the steering wheel where you want it to be) goes away and it stops trying to move.
How does this Happen??
That input force that you exert on the steering wheel goes into the steering box through a valve that is held on center (zero differential pressure) by a torsion bar (like in the front suspension but a lot smaller). One end of the valve and torsion bar is attached to the input shaft (steering wheel) and the other end is attached to the output end of the hydraulic drive. So, when the bar gets wound one way or the other, the valve comes off-center and the hydraulic pressure goes where it needs to go to make the two ends match again...
See this coming yet?
What has probably happened in your case is that one of the ends of the torsion element has lost its purchase and so comes off center when highly loaded. Fortunately, everything has enough negative feedback so it is still controllable. Because you inputting a force, the torsion element wants to go back where it should be. This may not remain to be case.
Now, Big Note of Caution.....
If you try to move the front end without hydraulic power available, all the force to do so has to go through the torsion element and -- IT MAY NOT BE UP TO THE TASK!!
So, After you have verified the the steering box is the issue, if you have to move the coach do not steer with more than one finger and Do NOT Hit the travel end stops.
I have never tried to diagnose this outside of a lab, but if you jack up the front and hit an end stop with the engine running, I would expect the servo to run away. With the engine off, you may be able to feel a slip in the travel that did not used to be there. As said, I have seen this failure. One case was reported that the steering was too easy and the wheel could be in a number of different positions when the vehicle was started. We found the the torsion element had failed completely.
I hope that this is a help and that you travel ends safely.
Matt
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Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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|
|
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194656 is a reply to message #194652] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:18 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
|
|
Matt,
I guess you are also saying that I'm lucky I made it to this location and probably should not drive it until I verify and fix this thing? Funny, the night before this happened, as I was backing into a site, I had the steering racked over to the left, and felt and heard a "klunk" in the steering. But everything seemed to work fine. I backed in and it was pulling out on to the highway the next morning that I had the problem. Then when I pulled into our friends drive two nights ago, I had it racked over to the left again and felt the same "Klunk". I've felt these things before and passed it off as a ball joint...that's why I went looking at ball joints today.
| Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 19:49 |
| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:28 |
So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I have checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
|
OK Larry,
Believe it or not, I have seen similar failures, but none so tame as this one.....
The problem is probably inside the steering box. Check everything else first because you cannot repair the steering box without a lot of special knowledge and tools.
The complete story:
The steering box is actually called a mechanical input hydraulic servo. (The full description is a lot longer and will add nothing.) What that means is that when it has hydraulic power available, it will repeat the input but with much greater force available. The hydraulic parts don't know (or care) where they are in the stroke, all they know is that force is being applied to the input and the output hasn't moved. So, it uses the hydraulic power to adjust its position to match input and when it does, the input force (because you are holding the steering wheel where you want it to be) goes away and it stops trying to move.
How does this Happen??
That input force that you exert on the steering wheel goes into the steering box through a valve that is held on center (zero differential pressure) by a torsion bar (like in the front suspension but a lot smaller). One end of the valve and torsion bar is attached to the input shaft (steering wheel) and the other end is attached to the output end of the hydraulic drive. So, when the bar gets wound one way or the other, the valve comes off-center and the hydraulic pressure goes where it needs to go to make the two ends match again...
See this coming yet?
What has probably happened in your case is that one of the ends of the torsion element has lost its purchase and so comes off center when highly loaded. Fortunately, everything has enough negative feedback so it is still controllable. Because you inputting a force, the torsion element wants to go back where it should be. This may not remain to be case.
Now, Big Note of Caution.....
If you try to move the front end without hydraulic power available, all the force to do so has to go through the torsion element and -- IT MAY NOT BE UP TO THE TASK!!
So, After you have verified the the steering box is the issue, if you have to move the coach do not steer with more than one finger and Do NOT Hit the travel end stops.
I have never tried to diagnose this outside of a lab, but if you jack up the front and hit an end stop with the engine running, I would expect the servo to run away. With the engine off, you may be able to feel a slip in the travel that did not used to be there. As said, I have seen this failure. One case was reported that the steering was too easy and the wheel could be in a number of different positions when the vehicle was started. We found the the torsion element had failed completely.
I hope that this is a help and that you travel ends safely.
Matt
|
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194657 is a reply to message #194654] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:27 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 21:03 |
HI Matt,
So, how do I verify that the steering box is the issue? By making sure that everything else is alright, or are there other diagnostic procedures to follow?
|
Larry,
I have been trying to figure out how one could effectively diagnose this without a test rig, I can only come up with two things. Both of these I sort of mentioned, but I hadn't finished the thinking.
If, with the engine off and if you marked the pitman arm so movement is apparent, then you can pull on the steering wheel. If it does not come back to center and the pitman arm did not move, that would tell you that something is wrong and you probably have a problem inside the valve.
If, with the wheels off the ground and the engine running, when you run the steering to one end and have to crank it back and then it still wants to go back there. Then that is a symptom of the same failure.
I really hope it is the steering damper. They are much easier to replace.
That 30° represents a lot of force in the system and when I had a damper go bad, it would slowly come back to center but the tendency to pull in the direction of the last turn remained.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194658 is a reply to message #194656] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:35 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 21:18 |
Matt,
I guess you are also saying that I'm lucky I made it to this location and probably should not drive it until I verify and fix this thing? Funny, the night before this happened, as I was backing into a site, I had the steering racked over to the left, and felt and heard a "klunk" in the steering. But everything seemed to work fine. I backed in and it was pulling out on to the highway the next morning that I had the problem. Then when I pulled into our friends drive two nights ago, I had it racked over to the left again and felt the same "Klunk". I've felt these things before and passed it off as a ball joint...that's why I went looking at ball joints today.
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Larry,
That "Klunk" and then it pulls and "klunk" and then it doesn't is exactly how I described the symptoms of a failed valve on one test.
A ball joint or tie rod end that was that loose would have to be real loose to do that, and it probably wouldn't come back that nicely.
If it passes the two tests I passed along in the crossing notes, then, (I hope) you have to find something else to fix.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194660 is a reply to message #194657] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:52 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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in this situation why would you not order a new steering box fom the Jim,s?
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:27:15 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem
>
>
>
> Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 21:03
> > HI Matt,
> > So, how do I verify that the steering box is the issue? By making sure that everything else is alright, or are there other diagnostic procedures to follow?
>
> Larry,
>
> I have been trying to figure out how one could effectively diagnose this without a test rig, I can only come up with two things. Both of these I sort of mentioned, but I hadn't finished the thinking.
>
> If, with the engine off and if you marked the pitman arm so movement is apparent, then you can pull on the steering wheel. If it does not come back to center and the pitman arm did not move, that would tell you that something is wrong and you probably have a problem inside the valve.
>
> If, with the wheels off the ground and the engine running, when you run the steering to one end and have to crank it back and then it still wants to go back there. Then that is a symptom of the same failure.
>
> I really hope it is the steering damper. They are much easier to replace.
>
> That 30° represents a lot of force in the system and when I had a damper go bad, it would slowly come back to center but the tendency to pull in the direction of the last turn remained.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194664 is a reply to message #194641] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 22:44 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Larry, I don't know where in Tennessee you are, but my parts coach is available if you need to borrow a steering box or whatever. I'm just inside Alabama off I65 about 15 miles...right above Huntsville.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Thu, 03 January 2013 06:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194669 is a reply to message #194641] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 05:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
My first reaction to your writeup was "steering box". But then I realized
that I'm not real sure of your symptoms: When you're in the "lock-up"
situation, does the steering wheel position correspond to the angle of the
road wheels? My first reading said "No", which IMHO could only be caused
by one of two failures: Slipping tie rod joints; or, Steering Box. If the
steering wheel DOES correspond to the road wheel angle, then all the other
possibilities, such as steering damper and CV joint come into play.
I still think you've got an internal failure of the steering box, as
suggested by Matt. But it's so rare...
Ken H.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Larry wrote:
>
> ...When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel
> about 30* to the left to keep it straight...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194672 is a reply to message #194641] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 06:51 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Out of left field... ny chance you're short some power steering fluid? You've elimnated the bulk of the obvious, the improbable is next :)
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:28 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem
So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in
Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I ha
ve checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
--
Larry :)
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194673 is a reply to message #194653] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 07:28 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Other than the "steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight." It sound exactly like the binding CV joint on my '73. But when it is binding, It FEELS like I am having to twist it the opposite way to go straight!
AND yes, using non-CV joint grease may allow the CV joint to bind. My last problem with it was not getting the upper boot strapped fully tight (used a large zip tie rather than actual CV boot bands) and let water in.
| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 17:50 |
Jim,
Have you actually had this happen to you and found that it was the steering CV? When I rebuilt the steering several years ago, I did redo that CV and greased it with Mobile 1. That is what everyone was suggesting at the time. I also took the time to drill in a zirk so I could shoot it with grease every time I do a grease job.
| James Hupy wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:13 |
Larry, either steering stabilizer or the constant velocity joint located just below the end of the steering column and above the steering box. When they need greased they will do just what you have described. BE SURE TO USE CONSTANT VELOCITY GREASE IN THAT JOINT. Regular chassis lube will do the same thing.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Jan 2, 2013 3:28 PM, "Larry" <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
> So, here's what happened.
> I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach
> straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left
> to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard
> to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just
> straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. ...
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Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end steering problem [message #194678 is a reply to message #194669] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 07:53 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 03 January 2013 05:35 |
Larry,
My first reaction to your writeup was "steering box". But then I realized
that I'm not real sure of your symptoms: When you're in the "lock-up"
situation, does the steering wheel position correspond to the angle of the
road wheels? My first reading said "No", which IMHO could only be caused
by one of two failures: Slipping tie rod joints; or, Steering Box. If the
steering wheel DOES correspond to the road wheel angle, then all the other
possibilities, such as steering damper and CV joint come into play.
I still think you've got an internal failure of the steering box, as
suggested by Matt. But it's so rare...
Ken H.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Larry wrote:
>
> ...When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel
> about 30* to the left to keep it straight...
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Ken,
I did some thinking about this last night. (these things sometimes make me loose sleep, especially when they happen on the road) When I set the box on "high point" last summer, I recall that I pulled the steering shaft out and did an R&R on it, and did use CV joint grease on the CV. I have had a CV joint lock-up with this joint 10 yrs ago when I brought the coach home. When it locked up, I could not turn the wheel in the direction I wanted to go at all...it just stopped at that point and I had to work the steering back and forth several times to get it past that point. That is NOT what I experienced on the road several days ago. I was able to steer to any point with the steering wheel, I just experienced resistance to it wanting to steer straight. In order for me to go straight down the road, I had to pull the steering wheel about 30* to the left. About 100 yds later it...all by itself... eased up on the pressure to veer to the right and straightened itself out. It was not a sudden easing or release of pressure. It took about 1 second for the pressure to fully release. I will be trying Matt's suggestion when things warm up here this morning. Temps in the low 30's...brrrr.
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: Front end steering problem [message #194680 is a reply to message #194641] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 08:00 |
Surbo
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Larry wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 17:28 |
So, here's what happened.
I made a hard right out of a gas station onto a highway. When the coach straightened out, I had to steer the steering wheel about 30* to the left to keep it straight. If I let go of the steering wheel it would veer hard to the right. The all of a sudden after about 100 yards, it just straightened itself out with no pulling to the right. So, I pulled into a parking lot and looked at things. Pulled out of the lot with another hard right. No problem. Went around the block to the left, and made another hard right onto the highway again. Did the same thing...pulled hard to the right, but after about 100 yds it straightened itself out. So I got it to do it again turning hard right into another parking lot and stopped in the lot. Could not see anything wrong. Got in the coach and started pulling forward and it straightened itself out. Got out onto the highway and drove another 550 miles with no problem. I am now at a friends home in Tennessee, and lifted the coach. I have checked everything in the front end...ball joints, tie rods, bolts that hold the lower "A" frame, alignment bolts on the upper A frame...everything steering up to the steering box. No movement at the wheel bearings. Took the wheels off to check most of it. Checked to see that the lower ball joints had not come loose from A frame. Checked upper ball joints for same. No witness marks anywhere of rubbing, no grinding noises accept the rubbing noise of the pads touching the rotors.
Has anyone had this or something similar happen to them? What was it? Can anyone speculate on what might be happening?
|
Larry;
Find a fairly straight road that is not too heavily traveled. Get the speed up to 15-20 mph, slip the tranny into neutral and shut off the engine. Do some left and right steering and see how the steering reacts without power assist. This may help you get a feel on where the problem may be, gearbox, CV joints, etc. Steering and brakes are top priority safety issues, so keep it safe and good luck.
Bob Drewes in SESD
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