Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Nylon Fuel Line and Ethanol (Why Not Nylon with steel?)
| Nylon Fuel Line and Ethanol [message #190812] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 01:41  |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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ust a reminder that I only access this forum through the forum and not through e-mail, and I access it only periodically. I am often behind discussions coming quite late into each. Please have patience if I need to respond.
As I read the many discussions on Fuel Line Issues, I am really intrigued by the many things that are covered. It's clear that anyone with rubber in the fuel system will soon have a problem ( If they have not got one already) with that rubber breaking down with the aggressive fuels that are being used to day and tomorrow. Ethanol percentages increasing as time goes by will only exacerbate the problem.
I'm sure that I will be having those same problems in the near future. (Right now most of our gas in Alberta does not have Ethanol and that is what I buy. However, I'm not that isolated, and I will need to rebuild my own at some point soon.
Many leaders in this group are rebuilding their fuel delivery systems with as much steel as possible. This would make sense, especially using the “Poly-Armor “ lines with the copper inner liner. What would also make sense to me, is to rebuild the Entire fuel delivery, Pumping, Emissions, and Filling systems to accommodate these aggressive fuels. However: A number of Flexible Joints are inevitable in most designs. There is much talk about the type of fuel line to use and I would like to provide a document that might help those that need some information. It is a PDF document of a training pamphlet used to sell the barrier hose sold.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p46558-barricade-fuel-line-training.html
While these types of fuel line should be the answer, The problem is: That some people are still having problems when they use some of these fuel lines.
(THE QUESTION)
How come nobody is discussing Nylon?? (This may also be Nylon / Plastic Compounds)
What is most interesting however, is that I have not seen any discussion about using Nylon Fuel line and Vinton O-ring fittings for the flex lines at key connections such as the fuel tank. ( removable) The major manufactures have been using Nylon Fuel Lines, from tank to fuel rail for years and Nylon handles the aggressive fuels that are used today. (Flex Fuel vehicles even use “Nylon Types” of plastics for fuel rails, Fuel Tanks and other fuel components) Here is a a PDF Catalogue of Metal, Nylon, Quick Connect, and Nylon to Metal Connection parts.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p46559-3dormanquickdisconnect.html
A person could quite conceivably build a fuel delivery system, using Nylon. It would be pretty well guaranteed to be non-corrosive, and capable of handling the Methanol fuels of today. It can be used for High Pressure Fuel injection and Low pressure Carburettors. (I've repaired a few vehicles that use nylon and it is quite easy to use) Quick connect fittings are used on many in line fuel filters and they can be purchased in any parts house and included in the fuel line quite easily.
I know one of the first things that will be said is that metal will not melt and I get it. However : all fuel lines should be routed in such a way that they cannot come in contact with heat (Even metal because you would Boil the gas) I imagine though: that using metal with Nylon for flex joints may be of great Value.
Any Comments?
Best Regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] Nylon Fuel Line and Ethanol [message #190819 is a reply to message #190812] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 07:40  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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John,
I agree with 99% of what you've said below; however, I'm going to disagree with one point. I believe you can build a fuel delivery
system for a carb or fuel injection and not use any rubber junctions.
It won't be simple or cheap but it is do-able.
I'll start putting a parts list together using Poly Armor tubing. I am not familiar enough with Nylon tubing / fittings to be able
to do it using those materials.
Regards,
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: John Heslinga
Just a reminder that I only access this forum through the forum and not through e-mail, and I access it only periodically. I am
often behind discussions coming quite late into each. Please have patience if I need to respond.
As I read the many discussions on Fuel Line Issues, I am really intrigued by the many things that are covered. It's clear that
anyone with rubber in the fuel system will soon have a problem ( If they have not got one already) with that rubber breaking down
with the aggressive fuels that are being used to day and tomorrow. Ethanol percentages increasing as time goes by will only
exacerbate the problem.
I'm sure that I will be having those same problems in the near future. (Right now most of our gas in Alberta does not have Ethanol
and that is what I buy. However, I'm not that isolated, and I will need to rebuild my own at some point soon.
Many leaders in this group are rebuilding their fuel delivery systems with as much steel as possible. This would make sense,
especially using the “Poly-Armor “ lines with the copper inner liner. What would also make sense to me, is to rebuild
the Entire fuel delivery, Pumping, Emissions, and Filling systems to accommodate these aggressive fuels. However: A number of
Flexible Joints are inevitable in most designs. There is much talk about the type of fuel line to use and I would like to provide
a document that might help those that need some information. It is a PDF document of a training pamphlet used to sell the barrier
hose sold.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p46558-barricade-fuel-line-training.html
While these types of fuel line should be the answer, The problem is: That some people are still having problems when they use some
of these fuel lines.
(THE QUESTION)
How come nobody is discussing Nylon?? (This may also be Nylon / Plastic Compounds)
What is most interesting however, is that I have not seen any discussion about using Nylon Fuel line and Vinton O-ring fittings for
the flex lines at key connections such as the fuel tank. ( removable) The major manufactures have been using Nylon Fuel Lines,
from tank to fuel rail for years and Nylon handles the aggressive fuels that are used today. (Flex Fuel vehicles even use
“Nylon Types” of plastics for fuel rails, Fuel Tanks and other fuel components) Here is a a PDF Catalogue of Metal,
Nylon, Quick Connect, and Nylon to Metal Connection parts.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p46559-3dormanquickdisconnect.html
A person could quite conceivably build a fuel delivery system, using Nylon. It would be pretty well guaranteed to be
non-corrosive, and capable of handling the Methanol fuels of today. It can be used for High Pressure Fuel injection and Low
pressure Carburettors. (I've repaired a few vehicles that use nylon and it is quite easy to use) Quick connect fittings are used
on many in line fuel filters and they can be purchased in any parts house and included in the fuel line quite easily.
I know one of the first things that will be said is that metal will not melt and I get it. However : all fuel lines should be
routed in such a way that they cannot come in contact with heat (Even metal because you would Boil the gas) I imagine though: that
using metal with Nylon for flex joints may be of great Value.
Any Comments?
Best Regards
--
John
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Nylon Fuel Line and Ethanol [message #190825 is a reply to message #190819] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 08:45 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I believe you >could> do it all in PolyArmor... but you'd need a couple of turns around a mandrel between the frame and the fuel pump... and you'd have to watch that part for vibration damage as the engine moves around relative to the frame. I think I'd use a bit of steel braided alcohol proof from the frame to the pump instead. When the tanks come down on the PB for rehab, this is the idea... if it is doable.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Nylon Fuel Line and Ethanol
John,
I agree with 99% of what you've said below; however, I'm going to disagree with one point. I believe you can build a fuel delivery
system for a carb or fuel injection and not use any rubber junctions.
It won't be simple or cheap but it is do-able.
I'll start putting a parts list together using Poly Armor tubing. I am not familiar enough with Nylon tubing / fittings to be able
to do it using those materials.
Regards,
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: John Heslinga
Just a reminder that I only access this forum through the forum and not through e-mail, and I access it only periodically. I am
often behind discussions coming quite late into each. Please have patience if I need to respond.
As I read the many discussions on Fuel Line Issues, I am really intrigued by the many things that are covered. It's clear that
anyone with rubber in the fuel system will soon have a problem ( If they have not got one already) with that rubber breaking down
with the aggressive fuels that are being used to day and tomorrow. Ethanol percentages increasing as time goes by will only
exacerbate the problem.
I'm sure that I will be having those same problems in the near future. (Right now most of our gas in Alberta does not have Ethanol
and that is what I buy. However, I'm not that isolated, and I will need to rebuild my own at some point soon.
Many leaders in this group are rebuilding their fuel delivery systems with as much steel as possible. This would make sense,
especially using the “Poly-Armor “ lines with the copper inner liner. What would also make sense to me, is to rebuild
the Entire fuel delivery, Pumping, Emissions, and Filling systems to accommodate these aggressive fuels. However: A number of
Flexible Joints are inevitable in most designs. There is much talk about the type of fuel line to use and I would like to provide
a document that might help those that need some information. It is a PDF document of a training pamphlet used to sell the barrier
hose sold.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p46558-barricade-fuel-line-training.html
While these types of fuel line should be the answer, The problem is: That some people are still having problems when they use some
of these fuel lines.
(THE QUESTION)
How come nobody is discussing Nylon?? (This may also be Nylon / Plastic Compounds)
What is most interesting however, is that I have not seen any discussion about using Nylon Fuel line and Vinton O-ring fittings for
the flex lines at key connections such as the fuel tank. ( removable) The major manufactures have been using Nylon Fuel Lines,
from tank to fuel rail for years and Nylon handles the aggressive fuels that are used today. (Flex Fuel vehicles even use
“Nylon Types” of plastics for fuel rails, Fuel Tanks and other fuel components) Here is a a PDF Catalogue of Metal,
Nylon, Quick Connect, and Nylon to Metal Connection parts.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p46559-3dormanquickdisconnect.html
A person could quite conceivably build a fuel delivery system, using Nylon. It would be pretty well guaranteed to be
non-corrosive, and capable of handling the Methanol fuels of today. It can be used for High Pressure Fuel injection and Low
pressure Carburettors. (I've repaired a few vehicles that use nylon and it is quite easy to use) Quick connect fittings are used
on many in line fuel filters and they can be purchased in any parts house and included in the fuel line quite easily.
I know one of the first things that will be said is that metal will not melt and I get it. However : all fuel lines should be
routed in such a way that they cannot come in contact with heat (Even metal because you would Boil the gas) I imagine though: that
using metal with Nylon for flex joints may be of great Value.
Any Comments?
Best Regards
--
John
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Nylon Fuel Line and Ethanol [message #190829 is a reply to message #190812] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 08:58 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Read what John Heslinga wrote on Tue, 20 November 2012 02:41
John,
You point is well made and entirely valid. I will admit that I considered it when I completely remade the fuel system under the coach. With the success of plastic fuel components at the OE level it does make sense. If one were in the process of a frame-off restoration, it should be considered.
There were two difficult areas that I did not manage to address to my own satisfaction before a decision had to be made.
The first was how to connect to the existing steel fittings of the fuel pick-ups and vents. This required a satisfactory coupling for the steel to nylon (or any acceptable plastic). I would possibly have used Swagelok fitting as I had great success with them during my career, but they have little tolerance for undersize metal tubing. The tank pick-up on my main tank is undersize. They are also larger than a typical compression fitting, but not so much that the underside of the floor could not be cut to clear. They are also somewhat pricey, but that was not a consideration in the overall cost of the job.
A second and succinct issue was the minimum bend radius of the tubing. The thick wall does not like to bend and the thin wall collapses easily when bent without a bend guide. (A piece of stamped sheet metal to hold the bend.) While the main fuel feed could easily be downsized and still accommodate the maximum fuel rate of about 10GPH. The fill vent, however, was a very different thing and I did not like any plan of downsizing that at all.
Were these two issues adequately addressed (not by some fool lying on his back and trying to get the job done so the coach could be ready in time for the next excursion - as it was - I didn't get it to the work rally at Miller's), it could be the start of a very successful fuel system upgrade.
Now that both senders have gone out and I want to replace all the fill couplings, I be sure to let you all know how easy it is to take down a pair of steel plumbed tanks. That is just one of my winter jobs.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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