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| Gas furnace ?? [message #190794] |
Mon, 19 November 2012 21:37  |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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About 2 years ago Gene barrow & I adjusted my Solair mixture for a howling issue. Seemed to repair the noise. Last year at ES in Milan, Mi it started howling again while we were having a business meeting. Was loud enough to hear in the building. Switched to elec heater and adjusted it again when I got home, no howling. Since then Cat got us a Carbon Monoxide detector. Last weekend in N.C. I fired it up (first time with the detector) and after about 3 cycles the detector started barking. I also noted that after a few minutes of running the furnace burner sound would randomly change slightly. So I`m thinkin maybe the heat exchancer has a break in it allowing the mixture to change and allowing burnt gas into the coach air flow???
I go to the Avion with the same furnace and remove it first to kinda see what I`m gettin in to. I found the exhaust vent to the outside was rusted to the flange solid. I had to break the weld on the plate to get the furnace to slide out. I then cut a groove in the remaining coller on the bench with a dremmel and took it off. The coller covered the slot vents in the exhaust pipe cover. It was slid on at least 1 1/2 "
When I went to take the furnace out of the Crestmont I took the outside vents off to see how bad they were and found the flanges were not even touching the furnace, no way they would slide on the intake and exhaust pipes. They was 1/2" between the pipe end and the outside flange. The outside flanges were pristine. Looking inside the Crestmont the furnace is under the rear dinette seat and is pushed as far outboard as the interior wall will allow. I can look behind the furnace and see the slots in the exhaust pipe cover inside the coach. They were stuck in the holes in the wall but not deep enough to catch the outside vent flanges. I did put the furnace out of the Avion in but it would not fire. Maybe I didn`t hold the reset button long enough but I did start smelling Propane so I`m thinkin Ignitor maybe. I`ll start with that tomorrow..
I do not know how long this carbon monoxide condition has existed, since new, or 2 years ago with the first howl, or just this trip.
My alternatives to fitment are to cut the bottom of the curved wall board inside the dinette seat and extend the gas inlet to get the furnace 2" closer to the outside wall or take the furnace to the muffler shop and get 2" extensions made. I`m thinkin muffler shop.
Now the QUESTIONS.
Could the misalignment of the exhaust and intake pipes cause the carbon monoxide detector to bark?
Can I put small air pressure maybe 15 lb on the exhaust outlet and soap the out side of the heat exchanger for bubbles on the bench?
I`m thinkin I got 2 problems.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190807 is a reply to message #190794] |
Mon, 19 November 2012 23:50  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Chuck,
The PO of The Blue Streak removed the furnace completely and the furnace in Double Trouble has been replaced too, it's got one of
these in it:
http://www.adventurerv.net/atwood-excalibur-furnace-8531iv-30000-btu-amp-p-3840.html
What I'm about to note is a SWAG. I went to Bdub's website and found the manual for the Solair and guessed at it's dimensions (12"
tall and 6" deep). That would make the side plates of the furnace 72 square inches. Multiply that by 15 and the amount of pressure
on each side plate would be 1080 pounds. I have no idea how the furnace is built and therefore I wonder if it can take that kind of
pressure.
If you want to leak check the furnace I'd bring the pressure up slowly and not go above a couple of psi.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Boyd
About 2 years ago Gene barrow & I adjusted my Solair mixture for a howling issue. Seemed to repair the noise. Last year at ES in
Milan, Mi it started howling again while we were having a business meeting. Was loud enough to hear in the building. Switched to
elec heater and adjusted it again when I got home, no howling. Since then Cat got us a Carbon Monoxide detector. Last weekend in
N.C. I fired it up (first time with the detector) and after about 3 cycles the detector started barking. I also noted that after a
few minutes of running the furnace burner sound would randomly change slightly. So I`m thinkin maybe the heat exchancer has a break
in it allowing the mixture to change and allowing burnt gas into the coach air flow???
I go to the Avion with the same furnace and remove it first to kinda see what I`m gettin in to. I found the exhaust vent to the
outside was rusted to the flange solid. I had to break the weld on the plate to get the furnace to slide out. I then cut a groove
in the remaining coller on the bench with a dremmel and took it off. The coller covered the slot vents in the exhaust pipe cover. It
was slid on at least 1 1/2 "
When I went to take the furnace out of the Crestmont I took the outside vents off to see how bad they were and found the flanges
were not even touching the furnace, no way they would slide on the intake and exhaust pipes. They was 1/2" between the pipe end and
the outside flange. The outside flanges were pristine. Looking inside the Crestmont the furnace is under the rear dinette seat and
is pushed as far outboard as the interior wall will allow. I can look behind the furnace and see the slots in the exhaust pipe cover
inside the coach. They were stuck in the holes in the wall but not deep enough to catch the outside vent flanges. I did put the
furnace out of the Avion in but it would not fire. Maybe I didn`t hold the reset button long enough but I did start smelling Propane
so I`m thinkin Ignitor maybe. I`ll start with that tomorrow..
I do not know how long this carbon monoxide condition has existed, since new, or 2 years ago with the first howl, or just this
trip.
My alternatives to fitment are to cut the bottom of the curved wall board inside the dinette seat and extend the gas inlet to get
the furnace 2" closer to the outside wall or take the furnace to the muffler shop and get 2" extensions made. I`m thinkin muffler
shop.
Now the QUESTIONS.
Could the misalignment of the exhaust and intake pipes cause the carbon monoxide detector to bark?
Can I put small air pressure maybe 15 lb on the exhaust outlet and soap the out side of the heat exchanger for bubbles on the bench?
I`m thinkin I got 2 problems.
--
C. Boyd
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190822 is a reply to message #190807] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 08:31 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Very good point! I would suggest even less, maybe 1 PSIG or even down into IN/H2O range of 15 to 20 IN/H20. (1 psig = 27.7 in/H2O) You could balloon that heat exchange to bursting.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Nov 20, 2012, at 12:51 AM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> The PO of The Blue Streak removed the furnace completely and the furnace in Double Trouble has been replaced too, it's got one of
> these in it:
>
> http://www.adventurerv.net/atwood-excalibur-furnace-8531iv-30000-btu-amp-p-3840.html
>
> What I'm about to note is a SWAG. I went to Bdub's website and found the manual for the Solair and guessed at it's dimensions (12"
> tall and 6" deep). That would make the side plates of the furnace 72 square inches. Multiply that by 15 and the amount of pressure
> on each side plate would be 1080 pounds. I have no idea how the furnace is built and therefore I wonder if it can take that kind of
> pressure.
>
> If you want to leak check the furnace I'd bring the pressure up slowly and not go above a couple of psi.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Boyd
>
> About 2 years ago Gene barrow & I adjusted my Solair mixture for a howling issue. Seemed to repair the noise. Last year at ES in
> Milan, Mi it started howling again while we were having a business meeting. Was loud enough to hear in the building. Switched to
> elec heater and adjusted it again when I got home, no howling. Since then Cat got us a Carbon Monoxide detector. Last weekend in
> N.C. I fired it up (first time with the detector) and after about 3 cycles the detector started barking. I also noted that after a
> few minutes of running the furnace burner sound would randomly change slightly. So I`m thinkin maybe the heat exchancer has a break
> in it allowing the mixture to change and allowing burnt gas into the coach air flow???
> I go to the Avion with the same furnace and remove it first to kinda see what I`m gettin in to. I found the exhaust vent to the
> outside was rusted to the flange solid. I had to break the weld on the plate to get the furnace to slide out. I then cut a groove
> in the remaining coller on the bench with a dremmel and took it off. The coller covered the slot vents in the exhaust pipe cover. It
> was slid on at least 1 1/2 "
> When I went to take the furnace out of the Crestmont I took the outside vents off to see how bad they were and found the flanges
> were not even touching the furnace, no way they would slide on the intake and exhaust pipes. They was 1/2" between the pipe end and
> the outside flange. The outside flanges were pristine. Looking inside the Crestmont the furnace is under the rear dinette seat and
> is pushed as far outboard as the interior wall will allow. I can look behind the furnace and see the slots in the exhaust pipe cover
> inside the coach. They were stuck in the holes in the wall but not deep enough to catch the outside vent flanges. I did put the
> furnace out of the Avion in but it would not fire. Maybe I didn`t hold the reset button long enough but I did start smelling Propane
> so I`m thinkin Ignitor maybe. I`ll start with that tomorrow..
> I do not know how long this carbon monoxide condition has existed, since new, or 2 years ago with the first howl, or just this
> trip.
> My alternatives to fitment are to cut the bottom of the curved wall board inside the dinette seat and extend the gas inlet to get
> the furnace 2" closer to the outside wall or take the furnace to the muffler shop and get 2" extensions made. I`m thinkin muffler
> shop.
>
> Now the QUESTIONS.
> Could the misalignment of the exhaust and intake pipes cause the carbon monoxide detector to bark?
>
> Can I put small air pressure maybe 15 lb on the exhaust outlet and soap the out side of the heat exchanger for bubbles on the bench?
>
> I`m thinkin I got 2 problems.
> --
> C. Boyd
>
> _______________________________________________
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190823 is a reply to message #190822] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 08:39 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Thank you gentlemen: I was going by the gas pressure of 11 in inlet pressure, but I see that is a totally different apple.
[quote title=powerjon wrote on Tue, 20 November 2012 09:31]Rob,
Very good point! I would suggest even less, maybe 1 PSIG or even down into IN/H2O range of 15 to 20 IN/H20. (1 psig = 27.7 in/H2O) You could balloon that heat exchange to bursting.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Nov 20, 2012, at 12:51 AM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> The PO of The Blue Streak removed the furnace completely and the furnace in Double Trouble has been replaced too, it's got one of
> these in it:
>
> http://www.adventurerv.net/atwood-excalibur-furnace-8531iv-30000-btu-amp-p-3840.html
>
> What I'm about to note is a SWAG. I went to Bdub's website and found the manual for the Solair and guessed at it's dimensions (12"
> tall and 6" deep). That would make the side plates of the furnace 72 square inches. Multiply that by 15 and the amount of pressure
> on each side plate would be 1080 pounds. I have no idea how the furnace is built and therefore I wonder if it can take that kind of
> pressure.
>
> If you want to leak check the furnace I'd bring the pressure up slowly and not go above a couple of psi.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> > -----Original Message-----
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190828 is a reply to message #190824] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 08:52 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I just replaced the combustion blower on my home furnace. On it, the blower is a scavenger instead of a pressure blower - it sucks combustion products out of the burner and blows them overboard.. a much safer design. If the furnace develops a hole in the heat exchanger, you'll pull house air out of the system instead of blowing combustion products into it. Are the newer RV furnaces designed this way?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ??
C Boyd wrote on Mon, 19 November 2012 19:37
> About 2 years ago Gene barrow & I adjusted my Solair mixture ...
>
> ... Since then Cat got us a Carbon Monoxide detector. Last weekend in N.C. I fired it up (first time with the detector) and after about 3 cycles the detector started barking. ...
From what I have read here over the years I am of the belief that the Solair furnace was a bad design to begin with, and didn't get better with time.
Replace it with something of a better (safer) design. New would be better than used.
As you have found out (luckily before your death) a good OPERATIONAL CO detector is a must if you use a furnace, propane refer or generator.
Be safe out there, we want to "pick your brains" for a while more. :twisted:
--
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190831 is a reply to message #190828] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 09:00 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Johnny: I know your RB Crestmont has a kennel cage instead of the dinette but is your furnace still there?? If so you might check to see if it is mounted to the outside vents properly. If so was the wall board cut?? Look behind it pls.
[quote title=Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 20 November 2012 09:52]I just replaced the combustion blower on my home furnace. On it, the blower is a scavenger instead of a pressure blower - it sucks combustion products out of the burner and blows them overboard.. a much safer design. If the furnace develops a hole in the heat exchanger, you'll pull house air out of the system instead of blowing combustion products into it. Are the newer RV furnaces designed this way?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190840 is a reply to message #190831] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 09:48 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Actually it currently has a crate that sits beside the furnace - I'm looking for a dinette :) But, the furnace is connected to th vents, and it looks to be properly connected. I'll cast another eyeball on it this evening and make sure. Out of curiosity, did Norris call them 'crestmont'?
--johnny
From: Charles Boyd <covered-wagon@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ??
Johnny: I know your RB Crestmont has a kennel cage instead of the dinette but is your furnace still there?? If so you might check to see if it is mounted to the outside vents properly. If so was the wall board cut?? Look behind it pls.
[quote title=Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 20 November 2012 09:52]I just replaced the combustion blower on my home furnace. On it, the blower is a scavenger instead of a pressure blower - it sucks combustion products out of the burner and blows them overboard.. a much safer design. If the furnace develops a hole in the heat exchanger, you'll pull house air out of the system instead of blowing combustion products into it. Are the newer RV furnaces designed this way?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190842 is a reply to message #190832] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 09:51 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Yeah, a match or Bic will often find a leak that's not even up to bubble pressure. I wasn't smelling propane, I was smelling combustion products. I'm going to do the check C suggested this evening. At a glance it looks connected like it originally was... but a closer look may reveal something different.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ??
Chuck, I have a great no nonsense way to check for leaks.
Back in the summer I put in a new gas two burner stove top for Teri. I kept smelling gas everytime I fired it up. Sprayed everything with soapy water, nothing. Went in the house and got Teri's Bic Match. Teri, "what are you going to do with that?" "Nothing, will bring it right back". Came back in with singed hair on my arms and a burned spot on the wood under the sink. Had my Halon fire extinguisher handy and put the fire out quick. Found the leak. I had forgotten to tighten a fitting? :lol:
Now, you see why life is good? I am still alive.
Dan
--
Dan & Teri Gregg
http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190859 is a reply to message #190854] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 10:56 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Boy I don't think I would want to try to sleep at night with a heater that could set off a carbon Monoxide detector. A new one at any cost would be on my list for repairs at the top.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ?? [message #190873 is a reply to message #190854] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 13:49 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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OK then that's the deal. I wasn't sure. I knew Norris was the upfitter - it doesn't say 'Crestmont' on it any place.
Thanks,
Johnny
From: Charles Boyd <covered-wagon@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Gas furnace ??
Johnny: from what I can find the GMC Crestmont was fitted by Norris homes a subsitury of Midas at the time. Mine also has the Norris built sticker beside the driver seat on the side panel.
http://www.bdub.net/publications/Crestmont/crestmont.htm
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/crestmont-midas-or-norris/p27941-this-says-norris-built.html
[quote title=Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 20 November 2012 10:48]Actually it currently has a crate that sits beside the furnace - I'm looking for a dinette :) But, the furnace is connected to th vents, and it looks to be properly connected. I'll cast another eyeball on it this evening and make sure. Out of curiosity, did Norris call them 'crestmont'?
--johnny
--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Crestmont [was: Gas furnace ??] [message #190886 is a reply to message #190874] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 17:03 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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I wouldn't like the big "MIDAS" either... maybe why that was not the normal Crestmont decals.
Seems 1975 was a year when the transmode upfitters were still shaking out. (This seems to have also continued into early 1976.) Most of the low volume transmodes, upfitted as actual MOTORHOMEs, came from this time frame.
All of the Norris upfitted 23 foot coaches I have seen in person or pictures, look exactly like the 23 foot coaches labeled in the brochures as Crestmont by Midas. This is a 1976 brochure: <http://www.bdub.net/publications/1976%2023%27%20Models/1976_23%27GMC.htm>
Something tells me that if your "Crestmont like coach" is NOT labeled as Midas upfitted, it would have a Power Level system. Making it 1975 or early 1976. (There were not very many 1975 23 foot coaches of any type.)
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Crestmont [was: Gas furnace ??] [message #190889 is a reply to message #190886] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 17:54 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
I wonder why Avion was not in that series?
"Someone" "told" me that Avion built 137 coaches in 1975, I don't know if that was:
A) 23 foot B) 26 foot C) Total of both. I suspect it was C).
IIRC David Greenberg "told" me that there were only a handful of 23 foot Avions on the registry.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Miller
I wouldn't like the big "MIDAS" either... maybe why that was not the normal Crestmont decals.
Seems 1975 was a year when the transmode upfitters were still shaking out. (This seems to have also continued into early 1976.)
Most of the low volume transmodes, upfitted as actual MOTORHOMEs, came from this time frame.
All of the Norris upfitted 23 foot coaches I have seen in person or pictures, look exactly like the 23 foot coaches labeled in the
brochures as Crestmont by Midas. This is a 1976 brochure: <http://www.bdub.net/publications/1976%2023%27%20Models/1976_23%27GMC.htm>
Something tells me that if your "Crestmont like coach" is NOT labeled as Midas upfitted, it would have a Power Level system. Making
it 1975 or early 1976. (There were not very many 1975 23 foot coaches of any type.)
--
Mike
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Crestmont [was: Gas furnace ??] [message #190892 is a reply to message #190886] |
Tue, 20 November 2012 18:05 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Sir: acording to the records the Crestmont was 1976 only and all 23s. It does have the late windows and HEI but has the early stainless/rubber waist band. Mine does not have any leveling valves at all. Has a blank GMC plate where the valves go. It stays in travel all the time. I believe Johnnys coach came without the valves also but were added. http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/crestmont/p41180-crestmont-dash.html
Sandy Shullers 1976 23' Crestmont is a side bath and has the early valves. Sandys coach has a dash plate with Midas on it and shows a 26' coach. My theory is the rear baths were outfitted by the Norris facility in Bean Station and the side baths were outfitted in Elkhart, In the Midas facility..
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p40216-crestmont-glove-box-ba.html
I ran into a feller here local (45 miles from Bean Station) and he says he use to work at Norris facility when they were doing the interiors on the GMCs. He swares there a few special order coaches that had Cadillac motors in them. I have no documentation of this, only the word of an old crippled up biker that I have only met once. I tried to argue the 455 only but he held his ground and seemed sincere.
If anyone else has a 23' rear bath Crestmont with a Caddy in it, it possibly could be factory. Please contact me.
[quote title=Mike Miller wrote on Tue, 20 November 2012 18:03]I wouldn't like the big "MIDAS" either... maybe why that was not the normal Crestmont decals.
Seems 1975 was a year when the transmode upfitters were still shaking out. (This seems to have also continued into early 1976.) Most of the low volume transmodes, upfitted as actual MOTORHOMEs, came from this time frame.
All of the Norris upfitted 23 foot coaches I have seen in person or pictures, look exactly like the 23 foot coaches labeled in the brochures as Crestmont by Midas. This is a 1976 brochure: <http://www.bdub.net/publications/1976%2023%27%20Models/1976_23%27GMC.htm>
Something tells me that if your "Crestmont like coach" is NOT labeled as Midas upfitted, it would have a Power Level system. Making it 1975 or early 1976. (There were not very many 1975 23 foot coaches of any type.)
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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.. I was looking for an alternative approach. 