Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Battery/Electrical Question
| Battery/Electrical Question [message #190610] |
Sat, 17 November 2012 21:06  |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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My 2 year old Wal mart engine battery has recently been losing it's charge when the coach sits for a few days.
I removed it and had Wal mart charge and check it. Their system says battery is good.
When reinstalling I get a spark when connectiong the ground cable. So using a test light between the battery post and ground cable I started removing fuses to find the source of current draw.
The test light does not stay lit constantly. It will light when first making contact and then fade out.
I have removed all fuses in the block behind the glove box and also all the fuses in the house fuse block.
With all fuses removed the test light still illuminates momentarily when I connect it between the ground post and ground cable.
The Progressive Dynamics Charge Wizard light also continues to flash with all the fuses removed.
For you gentlemen that require geographic locations; I am in Northern California but I think electricity works the same here as in Kansas or Austrailia.
Suggestions please. I'm sure it's something simple that I don't understand.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190612 is a reply to message #190610] |
Sat, 17 November 2012 21:18  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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My IOTA sparks the cable when connected to the house batt but does not drain. BUT you say engine battery is draining and Progressive dyn should be on house side. Is the isolator ok? Disconnect the Prog Dyn and replace the fuses and retry?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190613 is a reply to message #190610] |
Sat, 17 November 2012 21:30 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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The unknown here is just how sensitive is your test light? If at all possible, I'd recommend putting an ammeter in the circuit (same connection as the test light would work fine), so you can see what kind of current drain your rig has when just sitting. Once you get a baseline current reading (and assuming it shows an unacceptably high current drain) it's just a matter of disconnecting things until the current drain goes away or drops to an acceptable level (a small fraction of an amp, max - unless you have some sort of solar or trickle charger on the rig).
The engine battery really shouldn't power TOO many things, so troubleshooting your current drain shouldn't be too tough. Good luck though - sometimes tracing everything down does take a good bit of time and effort.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190615 is a reply to message #190613] |
Sat, 17 November 2012 21:43 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Mark,
I don't think the drain is large. I've been driving the coach in this condition for many miles and years. Not really a problem. I just thought it strange that there is a drain with ALL fused circuits disconnected.
So what could be draining the engine battery that is NOT on a fused circuit?
Why does the test light flash and then go out?
Ken B.&H, Matt C. and Gene F. are ya'll out there?
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190620 is a reply to message #190610] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 00:13 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| gbarrow wrote on Sat, 17 November 2012 19:06 |
My 2 year old Wal mart engine battery has recently been losing it's charge when the coach sits for a few days....
... The Progressive Dynamics Charge Wizard light also continues to flash with all the fuses removed.
For you gentlemen that require geographic locations; ...
|
I am Ass-U-Me'ing that the PD converter is on the HOUSE battery, and yes, the converter will cause a spark when the battery is connected or disconnected. The curent draw to the converter is almost monetary... IE the test light should fade out completely is a very short time. (I think it is charging a cap in the converter.) But the converter SHOULD be isolated from the engine battery under conditions that you should be in when messing with the battery connections.
Do you have a combiner?
If the combiner is "combined" when connecting the engine battery you might see a spark. But it should only combine if under a charge... or after a charging voltage is removed but before the charging voltage has a chance to bleed-off... and then only after combiners built in time delay. The "combined" led on the combiner should be out before "messing with the battery connections." I always remove all power sources and allow the combiner(s) to "disengage" before doing anything with either battery. Sometimes I turn on the headlights to bleed of the charge voltage to get the combiner to un-combine.
The combiner itself DOES sense the voltage on both batteries, and this does take _SOME_ current... but so little that it shouldn't cause a spark, or run down a battery (even a bad one) in any timeframe we would be worried about. Dampness on exposed connections would cause more current flow/battery drain. Of course, this is assuming the combiner is good.
From what I have been told, if you have a current drain, the electrons spin the opposite way in Austrailia. 
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
[Updated on: Sun, 18 November 2012 00:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190628 is a reply to message #190610] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 06:35 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Check for hidden fuse on after market radio or electric mirrors. Mine has both and can not find fuses so I disconnect engine battery at a fire wall battery switch , Some day I will dig into it but other thiings seem to take up time.
Good Luck!
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190633 is a reply to message #190620] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 08:49 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Mickey- No lightning bugs in arid Cal. Creative suggestion.
If the starter were the culprit wouldn't the drain be constant and not momentary?
Thanks to all for suggestions
Larry- No hidden fuses- at least none that I can find.
Ken- good idea- now waiting for daylight and hoping that yesterday's rain is gone.
Hope I can figure out how to read amps on my HF-Cen Tech digital multimeter.
What amt of draw is acceptable?
Mike- The PD converter is connected to house batteries.
You're description of the test light is correct.
A brief flash and then out. Brightness and duration of the flash is affected by the length of time between contacts-- as if it takes some time to build enough current to light the bulb.
No electronic combiner installed- Don't see the benefit since I drive the coach regularly and almost never connect to shore power except when camping. Then I have one of Ken B.'s
mechanical combiners if the need arises.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190637 is a reply to message #190610] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 09:42 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Response to: gbarrow wrote on Sat, 17 November 2012 22:06
Gene,
Your check is good so far, and the actual drain value that KenB asked for would be good, but lets see how far we can get without it. What we really do need now is to know what your test light is. If it is a bulb that has too large a drain by its own right, it may be making the problem.
We are working with the main engine battery only - Correct?
You don't have a combiner - Correct?
The Boost switch is OFF - Correct?
Both the spark when connecting and the test light going dim indicate a capacitive load on the system. This is probably the stereo or some other installed non-OE electronics. It is not likely to be the issue.
Could you be more explicit about the "few days" to a no-start?
Not that many years ago (before body control units) there was a common syndrome known almost universally as the "Three Day Dead Battery". Its well known cause was the failure of switches to turn off hidden convenience lights in the glove compartment, trunk and hood. The fact that the test light goes dim eliminates these.
Let's get back to the battery. If you took a charged battery to Wal-mart and they tested it, the only thing that they can check is that it is capable of providing cranking power when fully charged. I suggest that you disconnect the house bank and leave it that way so it is out of the picture. Then disconnect the engine battery and measure and write down the terminal voltage and time. Come back in 4 to 6 hours and measure again. If there is little or no change, re-connect and come back again. Now, did the slope of the discharge change? There should have been almost no loss in the first part. If there is more in the second part, then it is not your battery.
If it is not your battery, then start looking for the PO attachments that are not disconnected when you did the fuse pulling (good) thing. From here on takes both some understanding and diligence and some luck won't hurt.
As someone else mentioned, look for the in-line fuses.
There are two things that drive me crazy(ier) when trouble shooting the electrics on old boats... Those are hidden in-line fuses and wires that change description mid-run (the red 10 becomes a blue 12 somewhere).
Come on back when you know more and we will try to be more help.
By the by, the reason we ask for a sig with geo-reference and coach is A - if you have a problem and someone in striking range can help, he might just show up there, and the coaches are not the same, they varied by year and fitter, if we know what you have, that may change the target area.
Matt (Out of range or I would be there with my meters.)
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question [message #190641 is a reply to message #190612] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 10:08 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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The 'Bright and then fades" is indicitave of a fairly large capacitor charging. Which again points to a power supply like the 12 volt converter. Or, a large stereo amplifier or the like. I'd leave the fuses off but disconnect the converter and try it. And keep disconnecting tiill it stops.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
My IOTA sparks the cable when connected to the house batt but does not drain. BUT you say engine battery is draining and Progressive dyn should be on house side. Is the isolator ok? Disconnect the Prog Dyn and replace the fuses and retry?
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question [message #190643 is a reply to message #190641] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 10:16 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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And, as long as you're connecting the test lamp bwteen the battery post and the battery cable, the lamp itself isn't causing your problem.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
The 'Bright and then fades" is indicitave of a fairly large capacitor charging. Which again points to a power supply like the 12 volt converter. Or, a large stereo amplifier or the like. I'd leave the fuses off but disconnect the converter and try it. And keep disconnecting tiill it stops.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
My IOTA sparks the cable when connected to the house batt but does not drain. BUT you say engine battery is draining and Progressive dyn should be on house side. Is the isolator ok? Disconnect the Prog Dyn and replace the fuses and retry?
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Battery/Electrical Question [message #190649 is a reply to message #190637] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 11:07 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Matt,
Can't clarify "a few days" except after a 500 mile trip ending on the 9th I assume that all batteries are fully charged. By the 16th the battery seems weak while cranking.
Test light has very small bulb like in a flashlight- probe on one end and line with aligator clip on other.
Engine battery only - no combiner-boost switch off
Battery voltage 12.85v at 7:00 am
Disconnected +cable from house battery at the boost switch- is that good enough or must I disconnect at battery?
Disconnected 2 inline fuses one is for tach- not sure about the other one.
Amp reading with Centech digital multimeter. Red lead in 10ADC receptacle - black lead in COM receptacle--Dial switch set to 10A
nothing connected- reading is 0.01.
When connecting between batt neg post and disconnected ground cable the meter initially reads from 0.22 to 0.04 (depending on the interval between tests) and immediatly drops to 0.02 and holds there.
This is a learning opportunity for me and I hope for others. Is there a good tutorial for meter use in automotive applications. I'm mystified by most functions on the multimeter.
Thanks for your help
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question [message #190650 is a reply to message #190648] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 11:05 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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The current draw from that charger should really be miniscule.
If taking it out of the lighter socket stops the discharge, the
starting battery is toast!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
From: mickeysss@me.com
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:52:06 -0800
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
If it is the starting battery only that dies, some times the cig
lighter socket is connected to it. I have a small light that shows
green from a phone charger, but it takes the battery down in a few
ays plugged in without a phone on it. It is about as bright as a
lightneing bug.
mickey blink blink blink
palm beach 77
anaheim ca.
> On Nov 18, 2012, at 6:49 AM, gene barrow wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Mickey- No lightning bugs in arid Cal. Creative suggestion.
> > If the starter were the culprit wouldn't the drain be constant and not momentary?
> >
> >
> > Thanks to all for suggestions
> >
> > Larry- No hidden fuses- at least none that I can find.
> >
> > Ken- good idea- now waiting for daylight and hoping that yesterday's rain is gone.
> >
> > Hope I can figure out how to read amps on my HF-Cen Tech digital multimeter.
> >
> > What amt of draw is acceptable?
> >
> > Mike- The PD converter is connected to house batteries.
> > You're description of the test light is correct.
> > A brief flash and then out. Brightness and duration of the flash is affected by the length of time between contacts-- as if it takes some time to build enough current to light the bulb.
> >
> > No electronic combiner installed- Don't see the benefit since I drive the coach regularly and almost never connect to shore power except when camping. Then I have one of Ken B.'s
> > mechanical combiners if the need arises.
> > --
> > Gene Barrow
> > Lake Almanor, Ca.
> > 1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question [message #190653 is a reply to message #190651] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 11:30 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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In 1 and 2 you say to put the red lead to source and black to ground but in your CAUTION NOTE you say that can blow the fuse or destroy the meter. Do you perhaps want to revise the caution note?
Emery Stora
On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:20 AM, D C -Mac- Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> First, some rules for using a test meter (or test lamp):
>
> 1) Voltage is measured with + (RED) lead to circuit under test and
> the - (BLACK) lead to "ground" of chassis or coach.
>
> 2) Current (Amps) is measured with + (RED) lead to the source
> (battery positive) and the - (BLACK) lead in SERIES to load device(s).
>
> If you are using a "modern" digital multimeter, polarity is likely
> to be immaterial as the meter can "know" how to compensate.
>
> CAUTION NOTE: Putting RED lead to source and BLACK lead to "ground"
> CAN either blow the fuse in the meter or DESTROY the meter!
>
> Test lamps with which I am familiar are simply used to check for the
> presence of "some" voltage at either the source of load device.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>
>
>
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> From: barrowgene@gmail.com
>> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:07:32 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt,
>> Can't clarify "a few days" except after a 500 mile trip ending on the 9th I assume that all batteries are fully charged. By the 16th the battery seems weak while cranking.
>>
>> Test light has very small bulb like in a flashlight- probe on one end and line with aligator clip on other.
>>
>> Engine battery only - no combiner-boost switch off
>>
>> Battery voltage 12.85v at 7:00 am
>>
>> Disconnected +cable from house battery at the boost switch- is that good enough or must I disconnect at battery?
>>
>> Disconnected 2 inline fuses one is for tach- not sure about the other one.
>>
>> Amp reading with Centech digital multimeter. Red lead in 10ADC receptacle - black lead in COM receptacle--Dial switch set to 10A
>>
>> nothing connected- reading is 0.01.
>> When connecting between batt neg post and disconnected ground cable the meter initially reads from 0.22 to 0.04 (depending on the interval between tests) and immediatly drops to 0.02 and holds there.
>>
>> This is a learning opportunity for me and I hope for others. Is there a good tutorial for meter use in automotive applications. I'm mystified by most functions on the multimeter.
>>
>> Thanks for your help
>> --
>> Gene Barrow
>> Lake Almanor, Ca.
>> 1976 Palm Beach
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question [message #190655 is a reply to message #190653] |
Sun, 18 November 2012 11:35 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Beat you to it, Emery, by 3 minutes. Paragraph 1 refers
to voltage measurements (ONLY).
Paragraph 2 actually consists of THREE paragraphs.
Mac
> From: emerystora@mac.com
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:30:57 -0700
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
>
> In 1 and 2 you say to put the red lead to source and black to ground but in your CAUTION NOTE you say that can blow the fuse or destroy the meter. Do you perhaps want to revise the caution note?
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:20 AM, D C -Mac- Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > First, some rules for using a test meter (or test lamp):
> >
> > 1) Voltage is measured with + (RED) lead to circuit under test and
> > the - (BLACK) lead to "ground" of chassis or coach.
> >
> > 2) Current (Amps) is measured with + (RED) lead to the source
> > (battery positive) and the - (BLACK) lead in SERIES to load device(s).
> >
> > If you are using a "modern" digital multimeter, polarity is likely
> > to be immaterial as the meter can "know" how to compensate.
> >
> > CAUTION NOTE: Putting RED lead to source and BLACK lead to "ground"
> > CAN either blow the fuse in the meter or DESTROY the meter!
> >
> > Test lamps with which I am familiar are simply used to check for the
> > presence of "some" voltage at either the source of load device.
> >
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> > ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> > ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> > ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> > ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> > ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> > ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> > ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> > ______________
> > *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> > *--OO--[]---O-*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> >> From: barrowgene@gmail.com
> >> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:07:32 -0600
> >> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery/Electrical Question
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Matt,
> >> Can't clarify "a few days" except after a 500 mile trip ending on the 9th I assume that all batteries are fully charged. By the 16th the battery seems weak while cranking.
> >>
> >> Test light has very small bulb like in a flashlight- probe on one end and line with aligator clip on other.
> >>
> >> Engine battery only - no combiner-boost switch off
> >>
> >> Battery voltage 12.85v at 7:00 am
> >>
> >> Disconnected +cable from house battery at the boost switch- is that good enough or must I disconnect at battery?
> >>
> >> Disconnected 2 inline fuses one is for tach- not sure about the other one.
> >>
> >> Amp reading with Centech digital multimeter. Red lead in 10ADC receptacle - black lead in COM receptacle--Dial switch set to 10A
> >>
> >> nothing connected- reading is 0.01.
> >> When connecting between batt neg post and disconnected ground cable the meter initially reads from 0.22 to 0.04 (depending on the interval between tests) and immediatly drops to 0.02 and holds there.
> >>
> >> This is a learning opportunity for me and I hope for others. Is there a good tutorial for meter use in automotive applications. I'm mystified by most functions on the multimeter.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your help
> >> --
> >> Gene Barrow
> >> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> >> 1976 Palm Beach
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