Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190067 is a reply to message #190057] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 19:04   |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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If he'll send it to me, I'll rerun all the solder runs, check the components, and send it back as a spare.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: A. <markbb1@netzero.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
WD0AFQ wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 18:17
> Robin, dont throw away that old board if you buy a new one.
> dan
What is he supposed to do with the old one?
--
'73 23' Sequoia
UA (Upper Alabama)
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190078 is a reply to message #190067] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 19:56 |
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WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
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| Johnny Bridges wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 19:04 |
If he'll send it to me, I'll rerun all the solder runs, check the components, and send it back as a spare.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: A. <markbb1@netzero.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
WD0AFQ wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 18:17
> Robin, dont throw away that old board if you buy a new one.
> dan
What is he supposed to do with the old one?
--
'73 23' Sequoia
UA (Upper Alabama)
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Can not beat a deal like that.
dan
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190082 is a reply to message #190067] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 20:07 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Woot! Turns out Rumors of my Onan's control board's death may have been
exaggerated. Turns out the sound and fury of the cranking process are
enough to drownd out the little pump, whether I'm listening for it or
feeling it for vibrations.
I had a hunch... Was I absolutely sure the pump wasn't running unless the
jumper wires were in Place? I didn't hear or feel any evidence of a running
pump... But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I stuck the tank side fuel line in my mouth and cranked the engine and was
rewarded with suction.
This is with the control board in place. The little pump's operational
noise and vibration is just overwhelmed during the cranking process.
I'm done for tonight and will mess with it more tomorrow.
On Monday, November 12, 2012, Johnny Bridges wrote:
> If he'll send it to me, I'll rerun all the solder runs, check the
> components, and send it back as a spare.
>
> --johnny
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
>
> From: A. <markbb1@netzero.com <javascript:;>>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org <javascript:;>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
>
>
>
> WD0AFQ wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 18:17
> > Robin, dont throw away that old board if you buy a new one.
> > dan
> What is he supposed to do with the old one?
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia
> UA (Upper Alabama)
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--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190097 is a reply to message #190020] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 23:34 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Woo HOO! Robin - that's great news. You'll have that girl humming in no time.
Larry Davick
On Nov 12, 2012, at 1:50 PM, Robin Hood <loxley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:45 PM, A. <markbb1@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey everybody! There's a new Onan expert in Jackson, MS!
>
>
> http://youtu.be/TJZumOfxW6I
>
> I dunno about expert. :)
>
> --
> Robin Hood
> Jackson, MS
> 2003 Buick Lesabre
> 1968 Pontiac Catalina
> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome
> 1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190105 is a reply to message #190082] |
Tue, 13 November 2012 03:49 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| Robin Hood wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 18:07 |
Woot! Turns out Rumors of my Onan's control board's death may have been exaggerated. ...
... I stuck the tank side fuel line in my mouth and cranked the engine and was rewarded with suction. ...
|
Note that while this is a good sign, it does NOT mean the board is good. (Or bad for that matter.) The power to the pump (and ignition system) take different routes inside the board during starting and while running, and require different inputs into the board.
Watching the video, it looks like it is time to change jumping points to pins 6 and 9. (Use the lower pin 6 and the jumper can be VERY short.) With this jumper in place, just pressing "start" supplies power to pin 9 and latches it. Rather than fumbling around to pull the power off the battery, all you have to do is press "stop" to shut off the pump and ignition. But you will need to remember to actually press the stop button. Do not ask me how I know about THAT! 
Good work on the Onan, you'll make a mechanic yet! (Keep your day job.) 
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190227 is a reply to message #190105] |
Tue, 13 November 2012 22:05 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Oh Emerald One, tell me your seeeeecrettttsssss....
I have messed about further with my Onan. Observations:
To make life easy on myself, I went ahead and primed the carb by jumping 9
to 5, then disconnected the jumpers.
Pressing the start button caused a "run" condition, but ONLY when the start
button was kept pressed/engaged..
Hooking the jumper back up to 9 and 5 and pressing the start button started
the Onan, which continued to run even if I let off the start button.
Disconnecting the 9 to 5 jumper wire IMMEDIATELY killed the engine.
What this tells me:
1. I have sufficient fuel, air, spark, and compression for the engine to
run once its other problems, whatever they are, get worked out.
2. The engine isn't immediately dying due to lack of fuel upon removal of
the jumpers. There should be plenty left in the fuel bowl of the carb to
keep running. That is to say, the problem isn't the fuel pump. Only a
sudden halt of spark would kill it that quick, I think.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the board is good, this leaves me
with the following possibilities: That there is low oil pressure (bad),
that there is good oil pressure but the sensor is throwing a false sensor
reading (also bad, but may be easier to fix), or that the board isn't
seeing what it wants from the Voltage Regulator.
Following Duane Simmons guide, I removed from its terminal wire #12
associated with the oil pressure switch, and tried starting the engine
unjumpered. It still wouldn't run. I hooked up my multimeter to wire #12
with the engine not running. I grounded the COM (black) probe of the meter
to lots of places including the negative terminal of the battery. It should
have read 0 ish ohms, but it was an open circuit. Thing is, an open is the
"hey I've got oil pressure" condition. I may as well leave wire 12 off and
run without oil pressure monitoring. That's a bad idea... But while it
seems my oil pressure sensor is failing, I think it's failed in a state
that permits operation. So... I don't think that's my problem, although I'm
not super confident. I could just suck at using a meter. I'm out of
practice and out of my experience level.
That leaves the AC is-engine-running sensor as a likely culprit. There are
3 terminated wires attaching to blades on the voltage regulator. One is
labeled B+ (I assume it's battery positive) and the other two are labeled
AC. I assume these are the two AC legs. Mr Simmons advice here is a bit
ambiguous... He advised disconnecting the voltage regulator... But I'm
unclear as to what to do with the wires. Am I supposed to connect the two
AC wires I just removed from the regulator TOGETHER as in electrically? How
is that safe if they're 2 different AC legs? And in what way does doing any
of this make the control board happy?
I've read Simmons guide and studied the schematics and watched the DVD, but
if anyone has help or advice all ears.
Robin
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190232 is a reply to message #190227] |
Tue, 13 November 2012 22:53 |
Dave Mumert
Messages: 272
Registered: February 2004
Location: Olds, AB, Canada
Karma: 0
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Hi Robin
I thought I would beat Gene to the punch ;-)
Check on his site
http://gmcmotorhome.info/generator.html#ALTERNATOR
That appears to leave the alternator connected between pins 8 and 11
The wiring.jpg file on the DVD show the alternator connected between 8 and 5
( 5 and 11 are connected by the fuse )
Dave Mumert
> That leaves the AC is-engine-running sensor as a likely culprit. There are
> 3 terminated wires attaching to blades on the voltage regulator. One is
> labeled B+ (I assume it's battery positive) and the other two are labeled
AC. I
> assume these are the two AC legs. Mr Simmons advice here is a bit
> ambiguous... He advised disconnecting the voltage regulator... But I'm
> unclear as to what to do with the wires. Am I supposed to connect the two
> AC wires I just removed from the regulator TOGETHER as in electrically?
How
> is that safe if they're 2 different AC legs? And in what way does doing
any of
> this make the control board happy?
>
> I've read Simmons guide and studied the schematics and watched the DVD,
> but if anyone has help or advice all ears.
>
> Robin
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190239 is a reply to message #190238] |
Wed, 14 November 2012 00:07 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Oh wait I think I get it... It's not that the board gets its signal from
the VR, it's that a bad VR can drag down the signal the board gets from the
alternator?
That still leaves me with needing to know whether the two AC legs on the VR
get connected to each other electrically.
On Tuesday, November 13, 2012, Robin Hood wrote:
> Seen it. Doesn't answer my question though. Duane talked about wires being
> "together" and "in common" on a single terminal, but I see three blades for
> the spade connectors for three wires.
>
> If he just wanted the two AC wires identified and kept close to each other
> he should have worded it differently. Words mean things, and as written,
> his instructions don't match reality (two wires on one terminal) or make
> sense (connect two opposite legs of AC together???)
>
> It also doesn't explain why the control board is suddenly satisfied: the
> flywheel alternator feeds the VR which tells the control board that the
> engine is running. How does taking that signal away satisfy the control
> board?
>
> I'm tired and frustrated and out of my depth and I'm either faced with
> sloppy language or I'm committing a seeeeerious reading comprehension fail.
>
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012, Dave Mumert wrote:
>
>> Hi Robin
>>
>> I thought I would beat Gene to the punch ;-)
>> Check on his site
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/generator.html#ALTERNATOR
>>
>> That appears to leave the alternator connected between pins 8 and 11
>>
>> The wiring.jpg file on the DVD show the alternator connected between 8
>> and 5
>> ( 5 and 11 are connected by the fuse )
>>
>> Dave Mumert
>>
>> > That leaves the AC is-engine-running sensor as a likely culprit. There
>> are
>> > 3 terminated wires attaching to blades on the voltage regulator. One is
>> > labeled B+ (I assume it's battery positive) and the other two are
>> labeled
>> AC. I
>> > assume these are the two AC legs. Mr Simmons advice here is a bit
>> > ambiguous... He advised disconnecting the voltage regulator... But I'm
>> > unclear as to what to do with the wires. Am I supposed to connect the
>> two
>> > AC wires I just removed from the regulator TOGETHER as in electrically?
>> How
>> > is that safe if they're 2 different AC legs? And in what way does doing
>> any of
>> > this make the control board happy?
>> >
>> > I've read Simmons guide and studied the schematics and watched the DVD,
>> > but if anyone has help or advice all ears.
>> >
>> > Robin
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>
>
>
> --
> Robin Hood
> Jackson, MS
> 2003 Buick Lesabre
> 1968 Pontiac Catalina
> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome
> 1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
>
>
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190242 is a reply to message #190092] |
Wed, 14 November 2012 00:35 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I was told it works from someone but it turns over, the tanks are full, i dream of it rocking the frame and the sqeek of the air conditioner.
I just have no time to get to it yet. It is like surfing i have to wait for better waves of time. It may work i do not know if it did or not.
It is hard to believe it did. I have to do the duane simmons shuffle on it. i have the dvd, but when i see him on it i get all teary that he is gone and
do something else.
I wish i could have spent time with simmons he would have taught me a lot fast. god bless him and his.
he lived like 3 miles from me. I had a drop off in my airport shuttle by his house and went bye to see where it was, it was early sunday
morning and i did not want to bother him then, but i wanted to see where it was when i did go over to his house he invited me. I saw
mellow yellow in the drive way looked great, and he passed away few days latter. I talked to his wonderful wife and wished her well.
mickey
77 palm beach
great weather out here now, anaheim ca.
lots of people from utah coming to disneyland to see the new cars land, it is really wild, 1 1/2 billion dollars spent on it.
On Nov 12, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Carl Stouffer wrote:
>
>
> You'll get it Robin. You might even inspire Mickey to tackle his. :lol:
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190246 is a reply to message #190239] |
Wed, 14 November 2012 02:26 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Robin Hood wrote on Wed, 14 November 2012 00:07 |
Oh wait I think I get it... It's not that the board gets its signal from
the VR, it's that a bad VR can drag down the signal the board gets from the
alternator?
That still leaves me with needing to know whether the two AC legs on the VR
get connected to each other electrically.
On Tuesday, November 13, 2012, Robin Hood wrote:
> Seen it. Doesn't answer my question though. Duane talked about wires being
> "together" and "in common" on a single terminal, but I see three blades for
> the spade connectors for three wires.
>
> If he just wanted the two AC wires identified and kept close to each other
> he should have worded it differently. Words mean things, and as written,
> his instructions don't match reality (two wires on one terminal) or make
> sense (connect two opposite legs of AC together???)
>
> It also doesn't explain why the control board is suddenly satisfied: the
> flywheel alternator feeds the VR which tells the control board that the
> engine is running. How does taking that signal away satisfy the control
> board?
>
> I'm tired and frustrated and out of my depth and I'm either faced with
> sloppy language or I'm committing a seeeeerious reading comprehension fail.
>
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012, Dave Mumert wrote:
>
>> Hi Robin
>>
>> I thought I would beat Gene to the punch 
>> Check on his site
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/generator.html#ALTERNATOR
>>
>> That appears to leave the alternator connected between pins 8 and 11
>>
>> The wiring.jpg file on the DVD show the alternator connected between 8
>> and 5
>> ( 5 and 11 are connected by the fuse )
>>
>> Dave Mumert
>>
>> > That leaves the AC is-engine-running sensor as a likely culprit. There
>> are
>> > 3 terminated wires attaching to blades on the voltage regulator. One is
>> > labeled B+ (I assume it's battery positive) and the other two are
>> labeled
>> AC. I
>> > assume these are the two AC legs. Mr Simmons advice here is a bit
>> > ambiguous... He advised disconnecting the voltage regulator... But I'm
>> > unclear as to what to do with the wires. Am I supposed to connect the
>> two
>> > AC wires I just removed from the regulator TOGETHER as in electrically?
>> How
>> > is that safe if they're 2 different AC legs? And in what way does doing
>> any of
>> > this make the control board happy?
>> >
>> > I've read Simmons guide and studied the schematics and watched the DVD,
>> > but if anyone has help or advice all ears.
>> >
>> > Robin
>>
>
>
> --
> Robin Hood
|
3rd shift just arrived.
You are 100 % correct in the conclusions you have reached so far.
The alternator puts out around 28V VAC. The 28 volts goes to the regulator AND the the board. If you disconnect the regulator, the board still needs to see the 28 VAC to tell it to keep the power on the fuel pump and the ignition. Give me a few minutes to find the diagram and I'll post some more on the two wires in question and where to probe on the board for the 28 volts AC
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190248 is a reply to message #190246] |
Wed, 14 November 2012 03:10 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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OK you should see approximately 28 to 30 VAC across board pins 5 and Pin 8 when the generator is running.
As for the wiring on the regulator, I finally found a schematic with a VR-1 on it. According to the diagram there should be four wires on VR-1. One goes to Pin 5 plugged on the B+ terminal of the regulator. Then there was a yellow one that ran from the alternator and then on using a second wire to Pin 8 of the board. This is the two wires that he wanted taped off and kept hooked together. Finally there was a black wire from the alternator that went to the last AC pin Labeled L1 on the VR.
I had difficulty finding a diagram with VR-1 on it since most of the ones I have do not show VR-1. I finally found a hand drawn diagram that definitely shows the wire going from the alternator direct to L2 on the regulator and then continuing on to pin 8 of the board.
HTH
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190258 is a reply to message #190257] |
Wed, 14 November 2012 06:43 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Funny that you mention that, Rob. Wire #8 was disconnected from terminal 8,
with a wire coming from the vicinity of the starter hooked on to terminal 8
in its place. I figured I should return the generator to the stock
settings as much as possible. I haven't tried undoing wire 8 from terminal
8 and replacing it with the mystery wire.
On Wednesday, November 14, 2012, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> If I read this right Robin can connect the lead that comes from the
> alternator to pin 8 on the board.
>
> This is what I think Emery and I did this past summer when we re-installed
> the points / condenser on Double Trouble's Onan.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Burton
>
> OK you should see approximately 28 to 30 VAC across board pins 5 and Pin 8
> when the generator is running.
>
> As for the wiring on the regulator, I finally found a schematic with a
> VR-1 on it. According to the diagram there should be four
> wires on VR-1. One goes to Pin 5 plugged on the B+ terminal of the
> regulator. Then there was a yellow one that ran from the
> alternator and then on using a second wire to Pin 8 of the board. This is
> the two wires that he wanted taped off and kept hooked
> together. Finally there was a black wire from the alternator that went
> to the last AC pin Labeled L1 on the VR.
>
> I had difficulty finding a diagram with VR-1 on it since most of the ones
> I have do not show VR-1. I finally found a hand drawn
> diagram that definitely shows the wire going from the alternator direct to
> L2 on the regulator and then continuing on to pin 8 of
> the board.
>
> HTH
>
> Ken B.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190260 is a reply to message #190246] |
Wed, 14 November 2012 06:47 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Of course Ken B's got it all just right -- but a little complex for a
lawyer. :-)
Trying to keep it simple: Every Onan I've seen has had 3 terminals on the
regulator, but wires connected to only two of them. One of the connections
has only one wire. The other connection is two wires on a "stacking"
FastOn. Each of those wires should be disconnected and taped up -- just as
connected. That is, the dual stays connected when taped up and the single
is taped up alone.
The other connections depend on hidden splices, or on that double
connection, so are not affected by this little mod.
Ken H.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 3:26 AM, Ken Burton wrote:
> ...
> 3rd shift just arrived.
>
> You are 100 % correct in the conclusions you have reached so far.
>
> The alternator puts out around 28V VAC. The 28 volts goes to the
> regulator AND the the board. If you disconnect the regulator, the board
> still needs to see the 28 VAC to tell it to keep the power on the fuel pump
> and the ignition. Give me a few minutes to find the diagram and I'll
> post some more on the two wires in question and where to probe on the board
> for the 28 volts AC
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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