Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #188537 is a reply to message #188527] |
Sun, 28 October 2012 15:19   |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Robin,
Comments below.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Hood
Hoodwrote:
> No no, I deserve it. :)
No big deal, I had a problem watching you make your life more difficult! BTW I did this kind of stuff for a living for thirty years,
writing troubleshooting procedures for people that didn't possess great understanding of Hamilton Standard products. For quite a few
English was not their first language! I'll bet this is similar to what you do when you're working a lawsuit.
> Sounds like I need to take the adjustment screw out of the carb after recording their positions.
Correct.
>I have a spray can of carb cleaner but it sounds like I need the kind you soak parts in... I guess the spray isn't going to get
into the tiny >channels etc?
You can try leaving it installed but the only jeopardy you run into removing it is having the gasket that is between the carb and
the manifold sticking to the carb and the manifold which could tear it. It's a lot easier to spray carb cleaner down into the
various holes if you have it off and in your hand. Also when you remove item 9 - Nozzle and look at the size of the hole in it I
think you'll see why I suggested removing and disassembling the carb.
> Uh, WHAT carb to intake gasket??? :)
There is a gasket between the carb and the intake manifold see:
http://www.bdub.net/manuals/Onan/Onan6kwNH_Operator-Parts.pdf
Page 30 Fuel System Group Ref 3 - Gasket, Carburetor Mounting
Disassemble the carb carefully and with a bit of luck you won't need this:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/892
Robin
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Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #188931 is a reply to message #188537] |
Thu, 01 November 2012 20:47 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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I have acquired a can of Berryman's parts cleaner. I have disassembled
the carbuerator as far as I can (carb body, jet adjustment needle,
throttle adjust screw, float needle, bowl, and the screw at the bottom
of the bowl). All of said parts are now percolating in the cleaning
solution, and in all likelyhood will stay there until some time next
week unless one of y'all says to do otherwise. My wife's Great Aunt
Gertrude died and we have to travel to Louisiana for the funeral,
leaving after work tomorrow, it'll be a whole weekend thing.
The spark plugs are gapped at .036 and .037 which is waaaay wrong.
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #188953 is a reply to message #188931] |
Fri, 02 November 2012 06:00 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Robin,
Sorry to hear of your weekends sad mission to Louisiana.
Leaving the carb parts in the solution over the weekend should get all the varnish off. When you take them out give them a quick
spray with carb cleaner and put them on a clean cloth.
Squirt carb cleaner in all the ports in the carb body to get any varnish that may have come off the metal out.
Blow off all the parts holding them well away from your eyes in case there's any residual carb cleaner in internal passages. You DO
NOT want to get carb cleaner in your eyes, been there done that! DAMN!
If you want to clean the plugs you can give them a quick spray of Easy Off oven cleaner, that will clean them nicely before you
re-gap them.
Have a safe trip!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Hood
I have acquired a can of Berryman's parts cleaner. I have disassembled
the carbuerator as far as I can (carb body, jet adjustment needle,
throttle adjust screw, float needle, bowl, and the screw at the bottom
of the bowl). All of said parts are now percolating in the cleaning
solution, and in all likelyhood will stay there until some time next
week unless one of y'all says to do otherwise. My wife's Great Aunt
Gertrude died and we have to travel to Louisiana for the funeral,
leaving after work tomorrow, it'll be a whole weekend thing.
The spark plugs are gapped at .036 and .037 which is waaaay wrong.
--
Robin
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #189004 is a reply to message #188931] |
Fri, 02 November 2012 16:07 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Prior to this posting I just looked at two different Onan manuals. Both said the gap is suppose to be .020". I thought it was suppose to be .016" and that is what I have mine set at. Mine starts and runs fine.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #189982 is a reply to message #189004] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 12:08 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I have new and arguably interesting results!
First happy Veterans Day to y'all and to my wife (I'm just a civilian
puke). Veterans Day is also our wedding anniversary, we celebrated
our first... mostly by me taking a few days off work and us sleeping
late and going out to eat and do our own thing. I bought her some
clothes and an Xbox version of a video game I've seen her playing on
her phone. Note to self: Bejeweled is STUPID addictive.
Anyway.
I got the carb back together and cleaned up. I adjusted the float per
the manual with a 3/32 drill bit as a measuring device. There's no
gasket between the carb and the manifold (I didn't lose it, there
simply wasn't one). I regapped my spark plug down to .020 inches. That
is a VERY narrow gap; it's the lowest setting on my gap disc thingie I
got from Autozone.
Using starter spray after the regapping, the Onan coughed a couple of
times. I believe that means that I have spark on at least one
cylinder! That means that as long as the plugs and wires themselves
are good that I do not have an ignition problem! And like Forrest Gump
said, "That's one less thing to worry about."
I put the carb back on the Onan, and crossed my fingers. After
cranking and cranking away, she started to cough and sputter and
rattled to life! It wasn't steady and strong, and it may have been
missing (it sounded a lot like one of those hit-and-miss engines from
the State Fair exhibit) but she ran for about a minute.
So. Carb is good(sh) now too. Need at least a gasket between the carb
and manifold. The manual shows a gasket that's inside... I didn't take
the "seat" out, I don't think I totally disassembled the carb. If the
Berryman's Chem-Dip ate it, I'm gonna need a rebuild kit I think.
When I removed the jumper wire 9-5, and engaged the start button, the
pump DID NOT start, and I cou'dn't even get the engien to catch. Is
that significant? Like a bad board type thing?
So, we have established that the new fuel pump works after a fashion
(is it really enough, I wonder?), the cleaned up carb works after a
fashion (I'm unsure how good a job I did rebuilding it, and it may
need a few new gaskets), and the ignition system works after a fashion
(it ran, roughly, for a minute). All the fundamentals are there: fuel,
air, spark, and compression.
The fuel pump not running when the board isn't jumpered has me
concerned. But at least now I know what the problems are NOT.
To do: Order a rebuild kit from JimK for the carb. Possibly order a
new board (the fuel pump should run when the start button is pressed
andd keep running, yes?). Make it run again and measure the AC
voltgage to make sure THAT is working, since that's the whole point
after all. Start taking parts off and cleaning and painting them once
things start running like they're supposed to (I put the carb
adjustment scres back in the way I found them, but they may be out of
whack to start with).
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #189993 is a reply to message #189989] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 13:01 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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And don't EVER tighten them down more
that what a very small screwdriver can
do easily with fingertips. You can ruin
both needle and seat.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:49:43 -0700
> From: hartsgmc@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
>
> Robin,
> A good starting point on the adjusting screws is 1 1/2 turns out from the
> closed position, from there you can fine tune.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Makes you feel good to accomplish something don't it. You are on your way
> > to becoming a real GMC guy. Lot more fun than "lawyering". :d
> > Dan
> > --
> > Dan & Teri Gregg
> >
> >
> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
> GMC=Got More Class
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190003 is a reply to message #189982] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 14:00 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Sir: I would think it won`t do much unless you put a gasket between the carb and manifold. It bout has to suck air there. You should be able to make one by using gasket material or a milk carton and lay it on the carb and using a ball end of a small peen hammer tap the edges of the holes and the outline. After you get a gasket on it gravity feed the gas to the carb and see what happens.
| Robin Hood wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 13:08 |
I have new and arguably interesting results!
First happy Veterans Day to y'all and to my wife (I'm just a civilian
puke). Veterans Day is also our wedding anniversary, we celebrated
our first... mostly by me taking a few days off work and us sleeping
late and going out to eat and do our own thing. I bought her some
clothes and an Xbox version of a video game I've seen her playing on
her phone. Note to self: Bejeweled is STUPID addictive.
Anyway.
I got the carb back together and cleaned up. I adjusted the float per
the manual with a 3/32 drill bit as a measuring device. There's no
gasket between the carb and the manifold (I didn't lose it, there
simply wasn't one). I regapped my spark plug down to .020 inches. That
is a VERY narrow gap; it's the lowest setting on my gap disc thingie I
got from Autozone.
Using starter spray after the regapping, the Onan coughed a couple of
times. I believe that means that I have spark on at least one
cylinder! That means that as long as the plugs and wires themselves
are good that I do not have an ignition problem! And like Forrest Gump
said, "That's one less thing to worry about."
I put the carb back on the Onan, and crossed my fingers. After
cranking and cranking away, she started to cough and sputter and
rattled to life! It wasn't steady and strong, and it may have been
missing (it sounded a lot like one of those hit-and-miss engines from
the State Fair exhibit) but she ran for about a minute.
So. Carb is good(sh) now too. Need at least a gasket between the carb
and manifold. The manual shows a gasket that's inside... I didn't take
the "seat" out, I don't think I totally disassembled the carb. If the
Berryman's Chem-Dip ate it, I'm gonna need a rebuild kit I think.
When I removed the jumper wire 9-5, and engaged the start button, the
pump DID NOT start, and I cou'dn't even get the engien to catch. Is
that significant? Like a bad board type thing?
So, we have established that the new fuel pump works after a fashion
(is it really enough, I wonder?), the cleaned up carb works after a
fashion (I'm unsure how good a job I did rebuilding it, and it may
need a few new gaskets), and the ignition system works after a fashion
(it ran, roughly, for a minute). All the fundamentals are there: fuel,
air, spark, and compression.
The fuel pump not running when the board isn't jumpered has me
concerned. But at least now I know what the problems are NOT.
To do: Order a rebuild kit from JimK for the carb. Possibly order a
new board (the fuel pump should run when the start button is pressed
andd keep running, yes?). Make it run again and measure the AC
voltgage to make sure THAT is working, since that's the whole point
after all. Start taking parts off and cleaning and painting them once
things start running like they're supposed to (I put the carb
adjustment scres back in the way I found them, but they may be out of
whack to start with).
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190012 is a reply to message #189982] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 15:13 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Robin,
Thank you.
Happy Anniversary, pretty clever to get married on a Holiday - makes it easy to remember! Helen and I got married on April 1st.
Things that make you go Hmmmmm?
Back to the Onan: HOO - BLOODY - RAY!
You are correct there should be a gasket between the carb and the manifold; it is in the kit that JimK sells:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/892
Without it the engine is probably sucking air and that could be causing the miss.
Buy the kit and take the carb apart completely and install all the new parts. Before you install the new idle adjustment screw
compare it to the one you have in the carb now, the ends should be IDENTICALLY pointy.
Ref: MM X-7525 pg 24C-23 Fig. 33 Carburetor Components
It is important to remove the NOZZLE and check that the tiny holes in it are clean. Also the VALVE SEAT should be removed and the
GASKET replaced.
Yes the fuel pump should run when the rocker switch is positioned to START.
What were the Idle and Main adjustment screws set at?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Hood
I have new and arguably interesting results!
First happy Veterans Day to y'all and to my wife (I'm just a civilian
puke). Veterans Day is also our wedding anniversary, we celebrated
our first... mostly by me taking a few days off work and us sleeping
late and going out to eat and do our own thing. I bought her some
clothes and an Xbox version of a video game I've seen her playing on
her phone. Note to self: Bejeweled is STUPID addictive.
Anyway.
I got the carb back together and cleaned up. I adjusted the float per
the manual with a 3/32 drill bit as a measuring device. There's no
gasket between the carb and the manifold (I didn't lose it, there
simply wasn't one). I regapped my spark plug down to .020 inches. That
is a VERY narrow gap; it's the lowest setting on my gap disc thingie I
got from Autozone.
Using starter spray after the regapping, the Onan coughed a couple of
times. I believe that means that I have spark on at least one
cylinder! That means that as long as the plugs and wires themselves
are good that I do not have an ignition problem! And like Forrest Gump
said, "That's one less thing to worry about."
I put the carb back on the Onan, and crossed my fingers. After
cranking and cranking away, she started to cough and sputter and
rattled to life! It wasn't steady and strong, and it may have been
missing (it sounded a lot like one of those hit-and-miss engines from
the State Fair exhibit) but she ran for about a minute.
So. Carb is good(sh) now too. Need at least a gasket between the carb
and manifold. The manual shows a gasket that's inside... I didn't take
the "seat" out, I don't think I totally disassembled the carb. If the
Berryman's Chem-Dip ate it, I'm gonna need a rebuild kit I think.
When I removed the jumper wire 9-5, and engaged the start button, the
pump DID NOT start, and I cou'dn't even get the engien to catch. Is
that significant? Like a bad board type thing?
So, we have established that the new fuel pump works after a fashion
(is it really enough, I wonder?), the cleaned up carb works after a
fashion (I'm unsure how good a job I did rebuilding it, and it may
need a few new gaskets), and the ignition system works after a fashion
(it ran, roughly, for a minute). All the fundamentals are there: fuel,
air, spark, and compression.
The fuel pump not running when the board isn't jumpered has me
concerned. But at least now I know what the problems are NOT.
To do: Order a rebuild kit from JimK for the carb. Possibly order a
new board (the fuel pump should run when the start button is pressed
andd keep running, yes?). Make it run again and measure the AC
voltgage to make sure THAT is working, since that's the whole point
after all. Start taking parts off and cleaning and painting them once
things start running like they're supposed to (I put the carb
adjustment scres back in the way I found them, but they may be out of
whack to start with).
--
Robin
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190017 is a reply to message #189982] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 15:45 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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| Robin Hood wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 12:08 |
I have new and arguably interesting results!
...
Using starter spray after the regapping, the Onan coughed a couple of times. I believe that means that I have spark on at least one cylinder! That means that as long as the plugs and wires themselves are good that I do not have an ignition problem! And like Forrest Gump said, "That's one less thing to worry about."
|
That is very good news. I guess it was too much to hope for that you would get that cough the first time you tried the ether. Did you tell the Onan to turn its head before you checked for hernia?
| Quote: |
I put the carb back on the Onan, and crossed my fingers. After cranking and cranking away, she started to cough and sputter and rattled to life! It wasn't steady and strong, and it may have been missing (it sounded a lot like one of those hit-and-miss engines from the State Fair exhibit) but she ran for about a minute.
|
Not perfect, but a big leap forward. Next time you will be able to get to this point in a couple of hours instead of weeks.
| Quote: |
So. Carb is good(sh) now too. Need at least a gasket between the carb and manifold. The manual shows a gasket that's inside... I didn't take the "seat" out, I don't think I totally disassembled the carb. If the Berryman's Chem-Dip ate it, I'm gonna need a rebuild kit I think.
When I removed the jumper wire 9-5, and engaged the start button, the pump DID NOT start, and I cou'dn't even get the engien to catch. Is that significant?
|
Yes.
| Quote: |
Like a bad board type thing?
|
Yes.
| Quote: |
So, we have established that the new fuel pump works after a fashion (is it really enough, I wonder?)
|
Since it was intended to run an automobile, almost certainly (unless it is defective, not likely since it is new).
| Quote: |
the cleaned up carb works after a fashion (I'm unsure how good a job I did rebuilding it, and it may need a few new gaskets), and the ignition system works after a fashion (it ran, roughly, for a minute). All the fundamentals are there: fuel, air, spark, and compression.
The fuel pump not running when the board isn't jumpered has me concerned. But at least now I know what the problems are NOT.
To do: Order a rebuild kit from JimK for the carb. Possibly order a new board (the fuel pump should run when the start button is pressed and keep running, yes?).
|
Yes.
| Quote: |
Make it run again and measure the AC voltgage to make sure THAT is working, since that's the whole point after all. Start taking parts off and cleaning and painting them once things start running like they're supposed to (I put the carb adjustment screws back in the way I found them, but they may be out of whack to start with).
|
I would say you are correct on all your suppositions. You can only improve performance with a carb kit (does it include the one between the carb and intake?) and a gasket between the carb and intake. The sputtering and such means a fuel/air mixture problem, which may be a leak where the carb bolts on (where the gasket is missing) or the screws need to be adjusted, or both. Not likely any spark problems, seems to me on these engines, if you have spark at all, you have spark on both plugs.
There is something wrong with your board if it runs when jumpered and does not run when not jumpered. OR you have no oil pressure, or the "smarts" that can tell when it is running are not smart anymore (the board uses the charging circuit to tell if the engine is running, and turns off the fuel pump if it doesn't detect that the engine is running).
If you can get help from someone that knows how to tweak the carb screws (and possibly the governor), you can learn what to listen for to get it singing. I understand when you get the voltage right, the frequency is correct as well, but I would prefer to see it on a frequency counter if it was mine.
Hey everybody! There's a new Onan expert in Jackson, MS!
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190026 is a reply to message #190012] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 16:36 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Judy and I tied the knot on New Year's Eve, 1960.
No trouble to remember, eh? They even set off
fireworks for us every year!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:13:54 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan)
>
> Robin,
>
> Thank you.
>
> Happy Anniversary, pretty clever to get married on a Holiday - makes it easy to remember! Helen and I got married on April 1st.
> Things that make you go Hmmmmm?
>
> Back to the Onan: HOO - BLOODY - RAY!
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Hood
>
> I have new and arguably interesting results!
>
> First happy Veterans Day to y'all and to my wife (I'm just a civilian
> puke). Veterans Day is also our wedding anniversary, we celebrated
> our first... mostly by me taking a few days off work and us sleeping
> late and going out to eat and do our own thing. I bought her some
> clothes and an Xbox version of a video game I've seen her playing on
> her phone. Note to self: Bejeweled is STUPID addictive.
>
> Robin
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| Re: [GMCnet] I give up. (Onan) [message #190029 is a reply to message #190020] |
Mon, 12 November 2012 16:52 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
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|
Robin,
Congratulations, after watching your video I reckon once you install the carb kit and a new board the Onan engine will run OK.
It probably will be a good idea to check / set the timing. You can follow the procedure as noted in X-7725 page 24c-1 BREAKER POINT
AND TIMING PROCEDURE or you could connect a timing light to the left cylinder spark plug lead and check it with the Onan running.
You'll probably have to paint the slot between the 2 | 0 on the cooling fan with white paint to be able to see it. To adjust the
timing see X-7725 page 24C-2 Figure 2 - Breaker Point Adjustment - Type 2.
I'm not sure about what I'm about to note and I'd appreciate it if someone could verify / correct it: to advance the timing turn the
points adjusting screw (D) clockwise, closing the gap on the points, to retard the timing turn the adjusting screw (D) counter
clockwise, opening the gap on the points.
HOPEFULLY after all this work the generator will put out power!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Hood
http://youtu.be/TJZumOfxW6I
I dunno about expert. :)
Robin
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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