Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187054 is a reply to message #187051] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 20:55   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Sean,
The plug from the alternator should contain a 16g Brown wire (terminal 1)
and a 12g White (which will now be white, yellow, or brown with age) wire
(terminal 2). The 16g is the "Initial Excitation" lead for the field coil.
The 12g is the voltage sense lead that tells the alternator's regulator
what the chassis battery voltage actually is, after the alternator output
has passed through the isolator.
That looks to me as if someone tied that voltage sense line directly to the
alternator's output. If that's true, and that wire is broken, your
alternator should be putting out all the voltage it can, hopefully only 18
VDC, but possibly more.
If the wire is NOT broken, then the chassis (and house) batteries would be
receiving approximately 0.7 VDC less charge voltage than they need (the
missing drop across the isolator).
That condition MUST be corrected, even if only by reconnecting the sense
lead to the output.
The APC operates on the initial excitation lead and merely passes the
voltage sense lead through.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Sean F wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I recently purchased an APC. I unplugged the alternator connector to
> install the APC, and when I did, I noticed a loose wire on the
> connector. Does this connect as shown in this picture? (pretty sure it
> does, just want to be sure).
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/questions/p46115-does-this-connect-here.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Sean
> 1973 260 Painted Desert
> Luna County, NM
> Gallery: http://goo.gl/Gfcpd
> GMCMH Search Engine: http://goo.gl/xd8PK
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187055 is a reply to message #187054] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 21:02 |
Sean
Messages: 189
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Sean,
>
> The plug from the alternator should contain a 16g Brown wire (terminal 1)
> and a 12g White (which will now be white, yellow, or brown with age) wire
> (terminal 2). The 16g is the "Initial Excitation" lead for the field coil.
> The 12g is the voltage sense lead that tells the alternator's regulator
> what the chassis battery voltage actually is, after the alternator output
> has passed through the isolator.
>
> That looks to me as if someone tied that voltage sense line directly to the
> alternator's output. If that's true, and that wire is broken, your
> alternator should be putting out all the voltage it can, hopefully only 18
> VDC, but possibly more.
>
> If the wire is NOT broken, then the chassis (and house) batteries would be
> receiving approximately 0.7 VDC less charge voltage than they need (the
> missing drop across the isolator).
>
> That condition MUST be corrected, even if only by reconnecting the sense
> lead to the output.
>
> The APC operates on the initial excitation lead and merely passes the
> voltage sense lead through.
So, are you saying that the sense line should be connected to the
output, or are you saying that it shouldn't?
If the sense line shouldn't be connected to the output, then where
should the sense line be connected?
Thanks,
Sean
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Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187056 is a reply to message #187054] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 21:16 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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First I agree with Ken Henderson's observations.
The wiring you have is not standard.
I have a few questions:
1. What color is the disconnected wire?
2. What color is the wire that is connected and terminates in the two connector plug?
3. Do you have an isolator installed on the coach?
4. Do you have and know how to use a voltmeter?
5. Have you had low voltage problems? (weak headlights and problems keeping batteries charged)
6. Have you had problems boiling the batteries dry?
7. Did you or someone else install a combiner?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187057 is a reply to message #187055] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 21:20 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The sense line SHOULD be connected, via a hidden splice into the Red 12g.
going to the horn relay -- check the wiring diagram. It should NOT be
connected directly to the alternator output (without some other changes
which you shouldn't make).
There should be the cut end of the White 12g in close proximity to the Red
10g alternator output lead (loomed with it) so you can reconnect it.
Otherwise, you should run a new white 12g. to the horn relay.
Ken H.
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Sean F wrote:
...
>
> So, are you saying that the sense line should be connected to the
> output, or are you saying that it shouldn't?
>
> If the sense line shouldn't be connected to the output, then where
> should the sense line be connected?
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187059 is a reply to message #187055] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 21:27 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Sean wrote on Fri, 12 October 2012 21:02 |
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Sean,
>
> The plug from the alternator should contain a 16g Brown wire (terminal 1)
> and a 12g White (which will now be white, yellow, or brown with age) wire
> (terminal 2). The 16g is the "Initial Excitation" lead for the field coil.
> The 12g is the voltage sense lead that tells the alternator's regulator
> what the chassis battery voltage actually is, after the alternator output
> has passed through the isolator.
>
> That looks to me as if someone tied that voltage sense line directly to the
> alternator's output. If that's true, and that wire is broken, your
> alternator should be putting out all the voltage it can, hopefully only 18
> VDC, but possibly more.
>
> If the wire is NOT broken, then the chassis (and house) batteries would be
> receiving approximately 0.7 VDC less charge voltage than they need (the
> missing drop across the isolator).
>
> That condition MUST be corrected, even if only by reconnecting the sense
> lead to the output.
>
> The APC operates on the initial excitation lead and merely passes the
> voltage sense lead through.
So, are you saying that the sense line should be connected to the
output, or are you saying that it shouldn't?
If the sense line shouldn't be connected to the output, then where
should the sense line be connected?
Thanks,
Sean
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Assuming that is the remote sense line (white wire), it has been cut off (butchered) by someone. The wire normally goes to the big terminal on the horn relay which is electrically on the other side of the isolator.
Before you move it please answer the questions in my previous posting.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187060 is a reply to message #187056] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 21:32 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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It looks like we are getting a 6 minute or so delay from the email system. Because of it both Ken H and and I (Ken B) are responding with basically the same information. I'll back out and let Ken H. respond.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187066 is a reply to message #187060] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 22:01 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Nah, YOU go ahead -- I'm headed to bed -- be there in less than 6 minutes.
Ken H.
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>
> It looks like we are getting a 6 minute or so delay from the email system.
> Because of it both Ken H and and I (Ken B) are responding with basically
> the same information. I'll back out and let Ken H. respond.
>
> Ken B.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187111 is a reply to message #187051] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 10:03 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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here is a picture of how the alternator is connected ( and the APC)
*http://tinyurl.com/9rhet2j
GENE
*
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Sean F <wsfulmer@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I recently purchased an APC. I unplugged the alternator connector to
> install the APC, and when I did, I noticed a loose wire on the
> connector. Does this connect as shown in this picture? (pretty sure it
> does, just want to be sure).
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/questions/p46115-does-this-connect-here.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Sean
> 1973 260 Painted Desert
> Luna County, NM
> Gallery: http://goo.gl/Gfcpd
> GMCMH Search Engine: http://goo.gl/xd8PK
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187122 is a reply to message #187112] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 11:48 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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the connector is keyed, it does not go on wrong
gene
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Sean F <wsfulmer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:03 AM, gene Fisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > here is a picture of how the alternator is connected ( and the APC)
> > *http://tinyurl.com/9rhet2j
>
> Thanks, Gene - which wire (red or black) on the APC goes to #1 on the
> alternator?
>
> --
> Sean
> 1973 260 Painted Desert
> Luna County, NM
> Gallery: http://goo.gl/Gfcpd
> GMCMH Search Engine: http://goo.gl/xd8PK
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187125 is a reply to message #187051] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 12:05 |
Richard Brown
Messages: 281
Registered: May 2009
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I know I'm kind of late posting this, but I just read my mail. When I replaced my isolator, I replaced it with a 4-post one. The sense wire didn't look so hot, so I attached that wire using some #10 I had handy to the sense post on the isolator. Not sure that's the best way to do it, but it works fine so far. Something to think about.
I also made the connections with uninsulated butt connectors, soldered the connections, & insulated with heat-shrink. Lately crimp-on connectors have been my worst enemy & I'm replacing as many as I find with soldered ones.
Richard & Carol Brown
1974 Eleganza SE
"DILLIGAF"
1174 Hickory Hills Dr.
Murchison, Tx. 75778
903-469-3197
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Richard & Carol Brown
1974 Eleganza SE
1174 Hickory Hills Dr.
Murchison, TX. 75778
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187126 is a reply to message #187056] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 12:37 |
Sean
Messages: 189
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Hello Ken B,
On Oct 12, 2012 8:16 PM, "Ken Burton" <n9cv
<n9cv@comcast.net>@<n9cv@comcast.net>
comcast.net <n9cv@comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
> First I agree with Ken Henderson's observations.
>
> The wiring you have is not standard.
>
> I have a few questions:
> 1. What color is the disconnected wire?
White (well, 40-year-old white, it's the heavier gauge wire)
> 2. What color is the wire that is connected and terminates in the two
connector plug?
Brown (well, browner than the "white" one, it's the lighter gauge)
> 3. Do you have an isolator installed on the coach?
Yes, with outside terminals jumped.
> 4. Do you have and know how to use a voltmeter?
Yes
> 5. Have you had low voltage problems? (weak headlights and problems
keeping batteries charged)
Charging issues. Bought coach last March, was in shop for several months.
Batteries were old, would not hold charge (charged from a charger, not from
alt) so I replaced them both.
Was starting the coach a few times a week and all was fine until I noticed
the alt light starting to glow while coach was running. Went to install the
APC and noticed the loose wire, and here we are.
Chassis battery is run down now. Also, now If I turn ignition on without
starting, the alt light does not come on at all (it did before all of
this).
I can start the coach on the house battery. Just did that and checked alt
output voltage and it showed 10v and slowly dropping.
> 6. Have you had problems boiling the batteries dry?
Not so far, but I've not been running the coach much.
> 7. Did you or someone else install a combiner?
No combiner installed. I do have a jumper across the outside terminals on
the isolator.
Thanks for your help!
--
Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
Gallery: http://goo.gl/Gfcpd
GMCMH Search Engine: http://goo.gl/xd8PK
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Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187146 is a reply to message #187057] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 16:21 |
Sean
Messages: 189
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Ken H,
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The sense line SHOULD be connected, via a hidden splice into the Red 12g.
> going to the horn relay -- check the wiring diagram. It should NOT be
> connected directly to the alternator output (without some other changes
> which you shouldn't make).
>
> There should be the cut end of the White 12g in close proximity to the Red
> 10g alternator output lead (loomed with it) so you can reconnect it.
> Otherwise, you should run a new white 12g. to the horn relay.
Thank you! I found it, under a suspicious blob of electrical tape!
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/questions/p46119-found-the-other-end-of-my-alternator-sensing-wire.html
It's now reconnected, but I'm left wondering why the PO cut the wire
to begin with. I'm convinced he had intentionally connected it to the
alternator output - that's where the terminal lug was when I noticed
the loose wire (in the original photo), and the wire itself had the
yellow collar from the terminal lug on it.
--
Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
Gallery: http://goo.gl/Gfcpd
GMCMH Search Engine: http://goo.gl/xd8PK
_______________________________________________
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--
Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187147 is a reply to message #187146] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 16:34 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Sean,
Purely speculation on my part: When the isolator's diode to the chassis
battery fails, the alternator goes to full output voltage (usually limited
at 18 VDC). He may have discovered that he could restore alternator
control by connecting the feedback (voltage sense lead) directly to the
alternator output. That would bring the output voltage back to a safe
level, but not restore chassis battery charging. After jumping the two
outside terminals on the isolator, everything would seem to operate
normally (except for the batteries charging to 0.7 VDC less than optimum),
so why move the sense lead back to where it was? If he'd jumped the
isolator's outer terminals in the first place, everything would have worked
OK except that the battery banks would have been paralleled, with the
shortcomings that imposes. And the house side diode would probably have
soon failed also.
JMHO,
Ken H.
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Sean F wrote:
> Hi Ken H,
>
> Thank you! I found it, under a suspicious blob of electrical tape!
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/questions/p46119-found-the-other-end-of-my-alternator-sensing-wire.html
>
> It's now reconnected, but I'm left wondering why the PO cut the wire
> to begin with. I'm convinced he had intentionally connected it to the
> alternator output - that's where the terminal lug was when I noticed
> the loose wire (in the original photo), and the wire itself had the
> yellow collar from the terminal lug on it.
>
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187155 is a reply to message #187147] |
Sat, 13 October 2012 18:59 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 16:34 |
Sean,
Purely speculation on my part: When the isolator's diode to the chassis
battery fails, the alternator goes to full output voltage (usually limited
at 18 VDC). He may have discovered that he could restore alternator
control by connecting the feedback (voltage sense lead) directly to the
alternator output. That would bring the output voltage back to a safe
level, but not restore chassis battery charging. After jumping the two
outside terminals on the isolator, everything would seem to operate
normally (except for the batteries charging to 0.7 VDC less than optimum),
so why move the sense lead back to where it was? If he'd jumped the
isolator's outer terminals in the first place, everything would have worked
OK except that the battery banks would have been paralleled, with the
shortcomings that imposes. And the house side diode would probably have
soon failed also.
JMHO,
Ken H.
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Sean F wrote:
> Hi Ken H,
>
> Thank you! I found it, under a suspicious blob of electrical tape!
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/questions/p46119-found-the-other-end-of-my-alternator-sensing-wire.html
>
> It's now reconnected, but I'm left wondering why the PO cut the wire
> to begin with. I'm convinced he had intentionally connected it to the
> alternator output - that's where the terminal lug was when I noticed
> the loose wire (in the original photo), and the wire itself had the
> yellow collar from the terminal lug on it.
|
I totally agree with Ken H's speculation.
If I were trying to return this coach to normal operation I would do the following:
1. TEMPORARILY re-attach the white wire to the lug on the alternator output.
2. Start the coach and read the voltage on the center terminal of the isolator. I would expect it to read somewhere around 14.0 volts in it's current incorrectly wired condition. (A normally wired coach would read 14.7) IF THE VOLTAGE READS OVER 15 VOLTS SHUT OFF THE COACH IMMEDIATELY.
3. If the above reading is around 14.0 volts, Next remove the jumper you have installed between the top and bottom terminals of the isolator. Read the voltage at both of the terminals with the engine running. I would expect both terminals to read about .7 volts lower than what your read at the center terminal of the isolator. Our speculation is that one of these terminals will not read correctly. If they both read .7 lower then the isolator is working correctly. If one if them is off, then the isolator is bad and needs to be replaced. You can replace it with another isolator or a combiner. The choice is yours. They are both around the same price.
4. Once the isolator / combiner is wired and operating correctly then you can go back and fix the white sense wire on the alternator. Remove it from the alternator output lug and wire it to the large terminal on the horn relay which is where GM originally wired it. This will put your coach back in the OEM wired condition.
Do not forget to install the APC at the alternator.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loose wire on alternator connector [message #187252 is a reply to message #187155] |
Sun, 14 October 2012 17:34 |
Sean
Messages: 189
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
> I totally agree with Ken H's speculation.
>
> If I were trying to return this coach to normal operation I would do the following:
>
> 1. TEMPORARILY re-attach the white wire to the lug on the alternator output.
>
> 2. Start the coach and read the voltage on the center terminal of the isolator. I would expect it to read somewhere around 14.0 volts in it's current incorrectly wired condition. (A normally wired coach would read 14.7) IF THE VOLTAGE READS OVER 15 VOLTS SHUT OFF THE COACH IMMEDIATELY.
>
> 3. If the above reading is around 14.0 volts, Next remove the jumper you have installed between the top and bottom terminals of the isolator. Read the voltage at both of the terminals with the engine running. I would expect both terminals to read about .7 volts lower than what your read at the center terminal of the isolator. Our speculation is that one of these terminals will not read correctly. If they both read .7 lower then the isolator is working correctly. If one if them is off, then the isolator is bad and needs to be replaced. You can replace it with another isolator or a combiner. The choice is yours. They are both around the same price.
>
> 4. Once the isolator / combiner is wired and operating correctly then you can go back and fix the white sense wire on the alternator. Remove it from the alternator output lug and wire it to the large terminal on the horn relay which is where GM originally wired it. This will put your coach back in the OEM wired condition.
>
> Do not forget to install the APC at the alternator.
When I got to step 2, voltage was <12V and dropping slowly (with
radio, high beams, and high vent fan all running).
Since voltage was <14V, instead of proceeding to test the isolator, I
followed the "undercharged battery condition check" in maintenance
manual X7425.
Voltage at the alternator was still <12V (by this time, <11V). I
grounded the alternator (screwdriver in the test hole) while watching
voltage. It went *way* up, 15V and climbing.
According to the maintenance manual, my regulator is defective and
must be replaced, so I guess that's next.
The regulator seems to be an integrated part of the alternator. I
don't really know how old my alternator is - would I be better off
replacing the whole thing?
With any luck, that will also fix my alternator warning light (which
isn't lighting), and then I can move along to testing (most likely
replacing) the isolator (maybe with Gene Fisher's combiner+isolator
combo).
Thanks again for all of the guidance with this, everyone - learning so much!
--
Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
Gallery: http://goo.gl/Gfcpd
GMCMH Search Engine: http://goo.gl/xd8PK
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--
Sean
1973 260 Painted Desert
Luna County, NM
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