Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
| [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185514] |
Sun, 23 September 2012 20:47  |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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In finally finished the install of my 2nd & 3rd solar panels and got some
pictures posted of the entire system.
On the roof are 3 panels, 1-100 Watt and 2-75 Watt for a total of 250 Watts. I
ran the #6 wires down the refrigerator vent along the wall and under the coach
to the front. The charge controller is a Xantrex C60 mounted under the hood on
the drivers side, there is a switch under the hood to disconnect the system from
the batteries, main disconnect is a Intellitec Solenoid, the Intellitec's do not
require continuous power to hold them in either the on or off positions. On the
interior of the coach next to the main monitor panel I mounted the Trimetric
2025RV battery monitoring meter along with a main shut off switch for the
panels.
When we were on vacation in July for 12 days with just the 100 watt panel, we
only had to recharge the batteries once. This should put us in great shape for
future boon-dock camping.
Here is a link to the pictures of my install.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/rays-solar-battery-charging-system/p45711-solar-1.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/9reu4xh
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185523 is a reply to message #185518] |
Sun, 23 September 2012 21:50  |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for all of your help and guidance along the way Dan, you were a great
help to me on this project !!!
Wished I could have made the Rally, pictures show you're all having a great time
as usual.
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sun, September 23, 2012 9:21:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
Super job Ray. You are prepared for many fun days with no hookups. No need to
rough it just because we are not plugged in. A good solar setup with all led
lighting and an on demand water heater is great. If we had to pay for hookups we
would not be making as many memories.
Thanks for sharing, but wish you were here showing us in person.
Dan
--
Dan & Teri Gregg
http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185527 is a reply to message #185514] |
Sun, 23 September 2012 22:12 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Nice job Ray. I hope to be doing the same thing soon. Dan will be a major source of info for me too. I've got the Trimetric 2025 already, now for the panel and controller.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185543 is a reply to message #185514] |
Mon, 24 September 2012 07:39 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Very nice. I like the idea of the switch to cut them out of the circuit. I have done some work on my coach, and there are a few different spots i need to pull a fuse to disconnect all my power. front rear batteries, solar, and the converter. and that way too, you know what your solar is adding to the charge.
for anybody else reading, by putting a block of ice in the freezer(sitting in a tupperware container), and a block of ice in the bottom drawer of the fridge. It kept my 12 volt fridge from hardly using any battery power at all over a full weekend.
was off grid with my 65 watt solar, from friday about noon, till sunday evening. and still have 78% of my two golf cart battery left. That was running original 12 volt norcold fridge with the ice in it, lights, furnace in the morning, and fantastic fan almost all day. and waterpump.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185545 is a reply to message #185529] |
Mon, 24 September 2012 07:44 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I actually thought about have a TILT option by using a couple of linear
actuators, problem is you'd always have to be parked in the same direction, good
luck on that...... after thinking about it the whole thing just got too complex,
like Dan said, just put up enough panels so you can forget about it.
I also put in a valve and gas line for the Mr. Heater Big Buddy heater I
purchased, that will put out 18,000 BTU's, plenty for what we need and we won't
have the Suburban furnace fan sucking battery power like it does.
We love late fall camping up on the shores of Lake Superior, but it can get a
tad chilly, need to keep warm in the boon-dock campgrounds that we love.
BTW.....38 degrees at home this morning......I got all of this stuff finished
just in time !!!
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sun, September 23, 2012 10:15:37 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
George D. tried to grab my camera tonight to snap my picture. I told him that
was not the plan. I put everyone else up on the net. Don't need my mug on there.
The ice cream was good again tonight. We had the "first timers" serving. They
always do a fantastic job.
I love meeting folks whom I have "known" for a long time, on line.
One of the reasons I enjoy helping Jim K. Everyone stops by his store, at these
conventions.
Oops, off track here. Just know you are missed here. You could have given a tech
session on your install. They are always looking for new material. You used
quality parts in your solar setup and will never regret it. Now all you do is
enjoy the "free" electricity. You will not even think about the solar after a
few months. One reason I dont tilt is because I dont want to think about it,
just use it.
Dan
--
Dan & Teri Gregg
http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185547 is a reply to message #185543] |
Mon, 24 September 2012 07:59 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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That's what I like to hear Jon.....sweet !!!
JUST AN FYI......for people looking for great high capacity Solenoid Switch's
(100 amp) that DO NOT require full time power to stay on or off, these
Intellitec switch solenoids are the way to go.
http://www.intellitec.com/index.php/products/DC_Power_Management/Battery_run_down_protection/Battery_disconnect_12V_100A
http://tinyurl.com/97z4rw4
When turned off the spring loaded contacts separate like a normal solenoid.
When turned ON, the magnet activates and the contacts connect and a plunger
swings in and locks them in place. Only power required is when you turn it on
for that split second to activate the magnet, move the contacts and the lock
into position. Or when you turn it off, to activate the magnet and swing the
lock out of the way.
I have one of these on my engine battery, one on the house batteries and one
after the solar charge controller. You can locate the switches for these
solenoids under the hood or inside on the dash...or both !
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Jon Roche <lqqkatjon@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Mon, September 24, 2012 7:39:42 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
Very nice. I like the idea of the switch to cut them out of the circuit. I
have done some work on my coach, and there are a few different spots i need to
pull a fuse to disconnect all my power. front rear batteries, solar, and the
converter. and that way too, you know what your solar is adding to the
charge.
for anybody else reading, by putting a block of ice in the freezer(sitting in a
tupperware container), and a block of ice in the bottom drawer of the fridge.
It kept my 12 volt fridge from hardly using any battery power at all over a full
weekend.
was off grid with my 65 watt solar, from friday about noon, till sunday
evening. and still have 78% of my two golf cart battery left. That was
running original 12 volt norcold fridge with the ice in it, lights, furnace in
the morning, and fantastic fan almost all day. and waterpump.
--
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185548 is a reply to message #185547] |
Mon, 24 September 2012 08:07 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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is 100 amp enough? I would be worried about boosting the engine battery start up from the house bank. or in my case, also starting the onan off house bank.
I thought about fusing my batteries too, but when I need to boost the engine battery, or start the onan. I wonder if I would burn out a big fuse. I think the biggest one(that is financially reasonable), is 500 amp.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185552 is a reply to message #185548] |
Mon, 24 September 2012 08:21 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Good Question.
I never have to boost my engine battery.
On the Onan, I have a #2 gauge wire going from the front to the back, that is on
the auto reset 60 Amp breaker that came with the coach, it has never tripped out
when starting the Onan.
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Jon Roche <lqqkatjon@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Mon, September 24, 2012 8:08:03 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
is 100 amp enough? I would be worried about boosting the engine battery start up
from the house bank. or in my case, also starting the onan off house bank.
I thought about fusing my batteries too, but when I need to boost the engine
battery, or start the onan. I wonder if I would burn out a big fuse. I think
the biggest one(that is financially reasonable), is 500 amp.
--
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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GMCnet mailing list
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
|
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185595 is a reply to message #185543] |
Tue, 25 September 2012 04:29 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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What a great idea, or ideas. i just found this thread loving it!
what is better than living on sun shine. Maybe wiskey. wind.
putting ice in the fridge is best of many worlds together Great idea.
i'm loving it. get er dun.
kicking violets. tip toe through tulips. solar cells and away we go!
It seems the fantastic fan has less energy use than the original gmc fan, does anyone know.
where is the best information on a solar system to live in - solar cells that is system for the gmc.
This disconnect switch is for the solar cells so they do not give back the energy at night is that the
reason for the switch? Best cells to get?, Best controller to get? How to hook it up to 6 volt series maybe 3 of these?
I need computers and televisions, and radios, and lights, Lots of them. Information is my fire wood. i keep burning
with this going good. Any ideas to hook the sun to this is appreciated. Best regards to all, and those that need it most.
love even.
I'm reading everyone of these Solar Panels $ system ideas. thanks
mickey
77 palm beach
anaheim, ca. sunny all the time :-)
On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:39 AM, Jon Roche wrote:
>
>
> Very nice. I like the idea of the switch to cut them out of the circuit. I have done some work on my coach, and there are a few different spots i need to pull a fuse to disconnect all my power. front rear batteries, solar, and the converter. and that way too, you know what your solar is adding to the charge.
>
> for anybody else reading, by putting a block of ice in the freezer(sitting in a tupperware container), and a block of ice in the bottom drawer of the fridge. It kept my 12 volt fridge from hardly using any battery power at all over a full weekend.
>
> was off grid with my 65 watt solar, from friday about noon, till sunday evening. and still have 78% of my two golf cart battery left. That was running original 12 volt norcold fridge with the ice in it, lights, furnace in the morning, and fantastic fan almost all day. and waterpump.
>
>
>
>
> --
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185601 is a reply to message #185595] |
Tue, 25 September 2012 08:42 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
|
Senior Member |
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|
Hi Mickey
This solar system is actually pretty straight forward. Each panel is equipped
with diodes so that they cannot "reverse" drain the batteries. The switch I
installed is just a disconnect I decided to put in, no real need for it.
The panels get connected together parallel and those 2 lines go the a charge
controller, there are many charge controllers on the market, I chose the Xantrex
because other GMC'er have used it and it's supposed to be a good controller.
From the controller the two lines go to the batteries (+) and (-). Doesn't
matter if you have multiple 12 volt deep cycle batteries connected parallel or
multiple 6 volt connected in series.
The Trimetric meter is a completely separate system to measure battery
"FULLNESS".
We've done all we can to have our coach set it up for boon-dock camping.
Tankless Water Heater, Propane Refrigerator, all LED lighting.
I've analyzed this to death (like the lunatic that I am), here are the current
draws that I've found:
Fantastic Vent
Low 1.86 Amps
Med 2.29
High 3.00
My Cpap Machine 1.0 Amp
Refrigerator controls, gas valve ON 0.75 Amp
Refrigerator controls, gas valve OFF 0.033 Amp
1 LED Light 0.10 Amp
Water Pump 1.0 Amp
Suburban Furnace 8.5 Amp (this is why we setup a Mr. Heater Big Buddy Gas
Heater.....uses NO POWER.
In converting everything to kilowatt hours (kWh) I've calculated that on an
average day (5 good hours of sun), our 3 solar panels that total 250 watts will
generate 1.25 kWh, our daily power usage will be 0.59 kWh.
Our usage is based on the following DAILY uses:
Fantastic vent on medium for 9 hours
Light use 1 hour
Refrigerator use 24 hours
Water pump 0.5 hours
Cpap 9 hours
Hopefully we'll be able to do some LONG periods of Boon-Dock camping. We are
loving this !
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tue, September 25, 2012 4:26:58 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
What a great idea, or ideas. i just found this thread loving it!
what is better than living on sun shine. Maybe wiskey. wind.
putting ice in the fridge is best of many worlds together Great idea.
i'm loving it. get er dun.
kicking violets. tip toe through tulips. solar cells and away we go!
It seems the fantastic fan has less energy use than the original gmc fan, does
anyone know.
where is the best information on a solar system to live in - solar cells that is
system for the gmc.
This disconnect switch is for the solar cells so they do not give back the
energy at night is that the
reason for the switch? Best cells to get?, Best controller to get? How to hook
it up to 6 volt series maybe 3 of these?
I need computers and televisions, and radios, and lights, Lots of them.
Information is my fire wood. i keep burning
with this going good. Any ideas to hook the sun to this is appreciated. Best
regards to all, and those that need it most.
love even.
I'm reading everyone of these Solar Panels $ system ideas. thanks
mickey
77 palm beach
anaheim, ca. sunny all the time :-)
On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:39 AM, Jon Roche wrote:
>
>
> Very nice. I like the idea of the switch to cut them out of the circuit. I
>have done some work on my coach, and there are a few different spots i need to
>pull a fuse to disconnect all my power. front rear batteries, solar, and the
>converter. and that way too, you know what your solar is adding to the
>charge.
>
>
> for anybody else reading, by putting a block of ice in the freezer(sitting in a
>tupperware container), and a block of ice in the bottom drawer of the fridge.
>It kept my 12 volt fridge from hardly using any battery power at all over a full
>weekend.
>
> was off grid with my 65 watt solar, from friday about noon, till sunday
>evening. and still have 78% of my two golf cart battery left. That was
>running original 12 volt norcold fridge with the ice in it, lights, furnace in
>the morning, and fantastic fan almost all day. and waterpump.
>
>
>
>
> --
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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_______________________________________________
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System [message #185677 is a reply to message #185601] |
Tue, 25 September 2012 21:34 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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thank you i shall print this out.
where and what panels is a good deal and where to put them on top.
if i have 2 - 6 voolts in the rear onan area, two 6 volts in passenger front .
any ideas on size of wire and i should wire them separate from each photo bunch cell sheet. 3 cells - one for each
that would need 3 controllers so i have to use diodes from one controller right and then they all charge at once only one way
and the balance is not detected for reverse filling between the banks. I shall start with only 2 banks onan area and passenger side area
using the booster switch wires to connect them something like this right? 4 golf batteries.
latter i would like to add two more 6 volts on driver side front connected to the passenger side bank, having 3 banks of six volts.
On Sep 25, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Ray Erspamer wrote:
> Hi Mickey
>
> This solar system is actually pretty straight forward. Each panel is equipped
> with diodes so that they cannot "reverse" drain the batteries. The switch I
> installed is just a disconnect I decided to put in, no real need for it.
>
> The panels get connected together parallel and those 2 lines go the a charge
> controller, there are many charge controllers on the market, I chose the Xantrex
> because other GMC'er have used it and it's supposed to be a good controller.
> From the controller the two lines go to the batteries (+) and (-). Doesn't
> matter if you have multiple 12 volt deep cycle batteries connected parallel or
> multiple 6 volt connected in series.
>
> The Trimetric meter is a completely separate system to measure battery
> "FULLNESS".
>
> We've done all we can to have our coach set it up for boon-dock camping.
> Tankless Water Heater, Propane Refrigerator, all LED lighting.
>
> I've analyzed this to death (like the lunatic that I am), here are the current
> draws that I've found:
>
> Fantastic Vent
> Low 1.86 Amps
> Med 2.29
> High 3.00
>
> My Cpap Machine 1.0 Amp
>
> Refrigerator controls, gas valve ON 0.75 Amp
> Refrigerator controls, gas valve OFF 0.033 Amp
>
> 1 LED Light 0.10 Amp
>
> Water Pump 1.0 Amp
>
> Suburban Furnace 8.5 Amp (this is why we setup a Mr. Heater Big Buddy Gas
> Heater.....uses NO POWER.
>
> In converting everything to kilowatt hours (kWh) I've calculated that on an
> average day (5 good hours of sun), our 3 solar panels that total 250 watts will
> generate 1.25 kWh, our daily power usage will be 0.59 kWh.
>
>
> Our usage is based on the following DAILY uses:
>
> Fantastic vent on medium for 9 hours
> Light use 1 hour
> Refrigerator use 24 hours
> Water pump 0.5 hours
> Cpap 9 hours
>
> Hopefully we'll be able to do some LONG periods of Boon-Dock camping. We are
> loving this !
>
> Ray
>
>
> Ray & Lisa
> 78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
> Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
> Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
> Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
> 414-745-3188
> Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Tue, September 25, 2012 4:26:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Solar Panels & System
>
> What a great idea, or ideas. i just found this thread loving it!
>
> what is better than living on sun shine. Maybe wiskey. wind.
>
> putting ice in the fridge is best of many worlds together Great idea.
>
> i'm loving it. get er dun.
>
> kicking violets. tip toe through tulips. solar cells and away we go!
>
> It seems the fantastic fan has less energy use than the original gmc fan, does
> anyone know.
>
>
> where is the best information on a solar system to live in - solar cells that is
> system for the gmc.
>
>
> This disconnect switch is for the solar cells so they do not give back the
> energy at night is that the
>
> reason for the switch? Best cells to get?, Best controller to get? How to hook
> it up to 6 volt series maybe 3 of these?
>
> I need computers and televisions, and radios, and lights, Lots of them.
> Information is my fire wood. i keep burning
>
> with this going good. Any ideas to hook the sun to this is appreciated. Best
> regards to all, and those that need it most.
>
>
> love even.
>
> I'm reading everyone of these Solar Panels $ system ideas. thanks
>
> mickey
>
> 77 palm beach
>
> anaheim, ca. sunny all the time :-)
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:39 AM, Jon Roche wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Very nice. I like the idea of the switch to cut them out of the circuit. I
>> have done some work on my coach, and there are a few different spots i need to
>> pull a fuse to disconnect all my power. front rear batteries, solar, and the
>> converter. and that way too, you know what your solar is adding to the
>> charge.
>>
>>
>> for anybody else reading, by putting a block of ice in the freezer(sitting in a
>> tupperware container), and a block of ice in the bottom drawer of the fridge.
>> It kept my 12 volt fridge from hardly using any battery power at all over a full
>> weekend.
>>
>> was off grid with my 65 watt solar, from friday about noon, till sunday
>> evening. and still have 78% of my two golf cart battery left. That was
>> running original 12 volt norcold fridge with the ice in it, lights, furnace in
>> the morning, and fantastic fan almost all day. and waterpump.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 75 palm beach
>> St. Cloud, MN
>> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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