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A fool with old school tools [message #184743]

Sun, 16 September 2012 16:05

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Picked up a timing light and a multi tach/dwell/points meter thing at a flea market yesterday.

Needless to say, there were no instructions. ($15)

The dwell meter has a black, red, yellow and a pair of wires that go to a metal strip, like a bus bar.

I connected the yellow to the coil and got the tach to work.

Any guesses what the two wires to the bus bar thing are all about?
It has indications for points, dwell, and amps. But how is it connected for those functions?

As for timing marks on the engine, there aren't any that i can see. Without pulling the head, is there a way to wrench the engine to #1 TDC?

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 September 2012 16:06]

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184747 is a reply to message #184743]

Sun, 16 September 2012 16:57

Craig Lechowicz

Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI

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Senior Member

Dave,
Sounds like the strip is a shunt for the ammeter setting for the meter. Most of the automotive ones that I've seen, the shunt somehow hooks on one end to the battery post, (like with a hole in it that just presses over) and the other end to the cable. It's essentially a giant resistor of a specific value. Then, two leads come from the meter to attach to either end of the shunt and measure the voltage drop across the resistor to get to amps. Often, there is a separate jack on the meter to plug the lead in for amps. (one to the amps and the other to the black or negative). This is because the voltage drop is usually measured in hundredths or thousandths of a volt and they don't want you frying it if you are measuring something else.

On timing marks, they are darned hard to see. On mine, (A '77 455) I crawled underneath it, and turned the engine until I could find the groove in the balancer (almost like a hacksaw width notch) and painted it. The timing tab that is associated with it is a flimsy plastic piece maybe in the 1 or 2'oclock position if you were looking directly at the front of the engine. So, on the drivers side between the belts and the block, somewhat between the water pump and power steering pump. I've seen some photo's on the photo site, somewhere.

Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184748 is a reply to message #184747]

Sun, 16 September 2012 17:01

k2gkk

Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009

Karma: -8

Senior Member

Typing correction fluid with a little brush works very well
to mark your timing marks. It lasts a long time, but these
days you may have a hard time finding the stuff!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*

> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: craig.lechowicz@sbcglobal.net
> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 16:57:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools
>
>
>
> Dave,
> Sounds like the strip is a shunt for the ammeter setting for the meter. Most of the automotive ones that I've seen, the shunt somehow hooks on one end to the battery post, (like with a hole in it that just presses over) and the other end to the cable. It's essentially a giant resistor of a specific value. Then, two leads come from the meter to attach to either end of the shunt and measure the voltage drop across the resistor to get to amps. Often, there is a separate jack on the meter to plug the lead in for amps. (one to the amps and the other to the black or negative). This is because the voltage drop is usually measured in hundredths or thousandths of a volt and they don't want you frying it if you are measuring something else.
>
> On timing marks, they are darned hard to see. On mine, (A '77 455) I crawled underneath it, and turned the engine until I could find the groove in the balancer (almost like a hacksaw width notch) and painted it. The timing tab that is associated with it is a flimsy plastic piece maybe in the 1 or 2'oclock position if you were looking directly at the front of the engine. So, on the drivers side between the belts and the block, somewhat between the water pump and power steering pump. I've seen some photo's on the photo site, somewhere.
> --
> Craig Lechowicz
> '77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184752 is a reply to message #184748]

Sun, 16 September 2012 17:47

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I have not looked really hard for it but my initial search revealed no visible marks. Is there any way to position the engine to #1TDC without heroic dis-mantling ?

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184756 is a reply to message #184743]

Sun, 16 September 2012 18:30

Jim Wagner

Messages: 339
Registered: February 2004
Location: Brook Park, Oh

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Remove the distributer cap and turn over the motor till the rotor points at the number one post. That will get you close.

Jim Wagner
Brook Park, oh

I have not looked really hard for it but my initial search revealed no visible marks. Is there any way to position the engine to #1TDC without heroic dis-mantling ?

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184758 is a reply to message #184752]

Sun, 16 September 2012 18:50

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

hertfordnc wrote on Sun, 16 September 2012 18:47

I have not looked really hard for it but my initial search revealed no visible marks. Is there any way to position the engine to #1TDC without heroic dis-mantling ?

Mark,

It is actually not all that tough. I can be exhausting.
It will probably take two of you. I will write this like I was working alone (typical case).

Pull #1 plug and put something solid and not easily damaged in the hole. Something longer than a spark plug and has not parts to come off. (A ball point pen is a BAD IDEA.) A big dowel is good. It won't hurt the piston crown. an half inch will usually jam in the 14mm threads nicely.
Go down and bar the crank until you hit the thing you put in there.
Make marks on both the damper and some reference.
Bar the crank the other way until you hit the stop again.
Make a new mark on the damper.
Use dividers or a something to split those two marks.
Between them is TDC.
Now go back on top and see if you can find a timing mark.

Still haven't found a timing reference on the engine?
Go back to the damper or flywheel (the flywheel it easy to get to on real marine engines).
Measure the diameter. Now do the math to find out now far forward is 8 or 10 degrees. (There is a simple way to do that has slipped out of these old synapses at the moment (I will come to me a 0100 (shall I call you?).

Now you have to keep moving from where you can see the marks to the distributor and knudging and tweeking until you hit the mark. When you tighten the clamp it will move. So, you go around again. Repeat until it is dead on or close enough.

This is called the 8,18,28 rule. Only REally OLd people know this. (Like those of use that were young when these coaches were too.) Gap the plugs at 0.028. Set the points at 0.018. Set the base timing at 8� BTDC and every engine I've ever known will run on that. It may not run its best, but it will start and run and let you tune from there.

A significant number of the engines I have worked on had no external timing marks. It didn't matter.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184759 is a reply to message #184756]

Sun, 16 September 2012 18:54

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Jim Wagner wrote on Sun, 16 September 2012 18:30

Remove the distributer cap and turn over the motor till the rotor points at the number one post. That will get you close.

That can't be my only option? I've already timed it by ear and vacuum and RPM but my ear is pretty untrained so I'd like to make a good reference.

Won't the push rods get slightly loose when both valves are fully closed with the piston at TDC?

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184765 is a reply to message #184743]

Sun, 16 September 2012 20:42

Jim Wagner

Messages: 339
Registered: February 2004
Location: Brook Park, Oh

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Dave,
This is only good enough to find the timing marks not a perfect TDC.
Jim

Remove the distributer cap and turn over the motor till the rotor points at the number one post. That will get you close.

That can't be my only option? I've already timed it by ear and vacuum and RPM but my ear is pretty untrained so I'd like to make a good reference.

Won't the push rods get slightly loose when both valves are fully closed with the piston at TDC?

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184780 is a reply to message #184748]

Mon, 17 September 2012 04:49

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

k2gkk wrote on Sun, 16 September 2012 17:01

Typing correction fluid with a little brush works very well
to mark your timing marks. It lasts a long time, but these
days you may have a hard time finding the stuff!

WalMart has it.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184796 is a reply to message #184765]

Mon, 17 September 2012 09:35

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Jim Wagner wrote on Sun, 16 September 2012 21:42

<snip>
Won't the push rods get slightly loose when both valves are fully closed with the piston at TDC?

This is true, but it is really hard to tell when they are loose with if the hydraulic lash adjusters are in any kind of good condition. And, with the difficulty of removing the coach valve gear covers, I think that is not a great option.

If you have to resort to such, a better choice is to watch the rockers for the cylinder 180 out. (18346572) So, of course, you would have to take of the right bank (A/C side) valve gear cover.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184799 is a reply to message #184796]

Mon, 17 September 2012 10:08

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Hey, I found what may be a solution that ya'll might find interesting.

There is a lot of discussion of this problem among the Olds 455 boat people.

Attach a clear tube to a spark plug sized fitting and flood the cylinder with oil.

Then by wrenching the engine the oil will rise or fall in the tube and indicate minute changes in position.

The thinner the tube the more precise it will indicate.

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184802 is a reply to message #184752]

Mon, 17 September 2012 10:12

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Sure.� Remove the sparking plus so it will turn easily.� Rotate it until the distributor rotor points at the #1 plug wiren (so you don't get it topped on the exhaust stroke). Put something plastic like a soda straw or the like (I use a mini-bblind rod) down the plug hole until it touches the piston.� Rock the engine till the piston is at its highest point.� This is sometimes easier if you tape a piece of paper under the indicator and mark the indicator with a magic marker.� It's then easy to see the highest point.� Hold a bit of downward pressure onm the indicator to be sure it stays against the piston.� If there's a bit of perceived slop right at the top, mark the top and then back it off in the opposite direction of the running engine and slowly bring it to the mark, stopping there.� That will be TDC for the engine.
�
--johnny
'76 23' transmoide norris
'76 palm beach
�

From: dave silva <admin@oldrv.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools

I have not looked really hard for it but my initial search revealed no visible marks.� Is there any way to position the engine to #1TDC without heroic dis-mantling ?
--
Dave & Ellen Silva

1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock

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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184812 is a reply to message #184799]

Mon, 17 September 2012 11:19

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

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Or get a P&G meter.�
�
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
�

From: dave silva <admin@oldrv.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools

Hey,� I found what may be a solution that ya'll might find interesting.

There is a lot of discussion of this problem among the Olds 455 boat people.

Attach a clear tube to a spark plug sized fitting and flood the cylinder with oil.

Then by wrenching the engine the oil will rise or fall in the tube and indicate minute changes in position.

The thinner the tube the more precise it will indicate.

�
--
Dave & Ellen Silva

1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock

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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184878 is a reply to message #184799]

Mon, 17 September 2012 18:41

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

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hertfordnc wrote on Mon, 17 September 2012 11:08

Hey, I found what may be a solution that ya'll might find interesting.

There is a lot of discussion of this problem among the Olds 455 boat people.

Attach a clear tube to a spark plug sized fitting and flood the cylinder with oil.

Then by wrenching the engine the oil will rise or fall in the tube and indicate minute changes in position.

The thinner the tube the more precise it will indicate.

Dave,

The problem with doing anything other than hitting a stop in both directions and splitting that is that the piston's motion is a sinusoid and very flat on the top of the travel curve.

You can get close that way, but you will have a +/-5� uncertainty.

Good Luck

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: A fool with old school tools [message #184944 is a reply to message #184878]

Tue, 18 September 2012 08:41

Bill Freeman

Messages: 122
Registered: March 2004
Location: Colerain, NC

Karma: 1

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Matt is right about the best way of finding TDC is by using a piston stop and splitting the difference. The piston barely moves over the range of +/- 5 degrees of TDC. I don't much like the idea of filling the cylinder with oil. That is no more accurate than sticking a straw thru the spark plug hole and getting the oil back out will be messy. The easiest way to set timing is to advance until it pings under load and go back until it stops pinging. I have done a lot of dyno tuning and exact timing is far less important than exact fuel air mixture. Don't obsess about spark timing.

Bill Freeman
78 Royale 73 Sequoia
Colerain, North Carolina

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Re: [GMCnet] A fool with old school tools [message #184947 is a reply to message #184743]

Tue, 18 September 2012 08:45

Mr ERFisher

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Registered: August 2005

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Senior Member

>
> About timing marks, there aren't any that i can see.
>
not too hard, looks like this

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html

gene

--
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