Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid
| [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183635] |
Sat, 08 September 2012 12:14  |
JT
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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I have a '75 Glenbrook currently with the original 5500w Onan generator + converter.
Next weekend, I'm having a Winegard DS840 satellite dish installed. It uses an auto deploy system, an iDirect X5 satellite modem, converter with output power of 6 watts (+ 37.7dBm min.), and an internet router. I plan to use a laptop (or 2) for approx 8 hours a day, along with minimal other electronics like a couple speakers and a turntable.
I plan to live and work in my Glenbrook full time in remote locations. I'm wondering what the best (and economical) power situation would be, so that I don't need to run the generator too often.
There's currently 2 new 6v house batteries, and zero room where they are next to the Onan, to expand/ add batteries in that space.
I've been told that all I need is a very small ~500w-1000w pure sine wave inverter, but I'm skeptical whether 2 6v batteries will be enough to keep me running ~8 hours a day/ how often I'll need to re-charge/ how long these batteries will last. Also- can I use a 500-1000 inverter, when the generator is 5500? What should I look at when purchasing the inverter? I'm new with this stuff/ don't understand much…
Finally, the Onan 5500 sounds like it might be on its last legs (or maybe just needs a new fuel line based on a recent inspection), and I have a Honda 1000e generator as potential temporary backup.
Thanks in advance!
JT
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183638 is a reply to message #183635] |
Sat, 08 September 2012 13:10  |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Here's the rub... you can run your generator to charge your batteries (and to take the computer/satellite system load while it's running), but it's not putting anything close to 5,500 watts into the batteries. If you've got the original "buzz box" in your rig, it's not going to do more than 40 amps (~500 watts) best case, and probably less. You'd be well-served to buy a bigger Progressive Dynamics (or similar) charger/converter - it will supply more charge current to your batteries, and will also prevent boiling them dry if you do happen to hook up to shore power (or leave your generator running too long). In your case, the bigger models would be the way to go since you'll be wanting to maximize the charging rate of your batteries.
It's hard to know exactly how long your house batteries will last on a full charge, because we need to know their capacity, and we need to know how many watts you'll actually be drawing through that inverter. Having an inverter is certainly the right thing to do - it'll save a fortune compared to running the generator full-time... but if you're drawing (for example) 500 watts (40 amps) from your batteries to power the inverter, you're still going to be running your generator about 50% of the time. In other words, first try hard to minimize the amount of current you're going to need to draw through that inverter as the best way to optimize your system, then work on increasing the capacity of your system (storage and charging).
I'd seriously suggest looking at a couple healthy solar panels, which can take up a good bit of the load (saving your a lot of generator run time). I've seen 100-125 watt panels coming down to really reasonable prices, but don't forget to factor in the cost of a quality controller (or you'll cause more problems than you solve with the solar panels). If your load can be kept in the 200-250 watt range, and you are working during daylight hours (and there are no clouds...) you might just about get away with not running the generator, assuming you can put $400-100 into the solar system.
But if your Onan isn't at 100%, you'd better be making contingency plans right now, because you're going off-line pretty soon after it gives up the ghost. Some newer generators (including the newer Onans) are more efficient than the older ones, and lighter, too... both are important improvements.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183645 is a reply to message #183638] |
Sat, 08 September 2012 14:41 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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Another point, you don't want to discharge your batteries more than
25%, I'd try to exceed 25% no more than once a month or so, the deeper
they are discharged, the shorter the life. If you can hold it to under
10%, you can go over a decade, go over 50% on a daily basis, you will
find yourself buying new batteries something more like once a year.
You might want to see about angling the panels 20 degrees or so,
downside, it means you want to park your coach one direction rather
than any other, upside, a useful bit more power, and having them at an
angle means the rain will wash them clean (probably not a factor for
an RV, but a real win for fixed installations).
I'd lean towards enough solar to run everything, and save my generator
for cloudy days.
This doesn't mean you need enough battery for 24 hours, after all, you
will be working a good chunk of the time when the sun is out.
For a side note, anyone look into NiZn batteries? they do have some
12.6v lead acid replacement use cases, and while more money than lead
acid, are much lighter, and still much cheaper than Li technologies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93zinc_battery
http://www.powergenix.com/ If you wanted 5kwh of batteries, the weight
savings might be quite welcome. I'm not sure how they compare to lead
acid for cycle life.
There are some good books and web sites for this kind of thing. I'd
over buy on wire (heavier gage than speced).
I've yet to do any of this, though I've been reading any planning for
some time.
I'd also consider seeing how much you can run on DC, a smaller, and
thus cheaper, inverter would be a good thing.
Anyhow, I'd love to hear everyone thoughts and experiences on this.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes,
Ron
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Mark <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here's the rub... you can run your generator to charge your batteries (and to take the computer/satellite system load while it's running), but it's not putting anything close to 5,500 watts into the batteries. If you've got the original "buzz box" in your rig, it's not going to do more than 40 amps (~500 watts) best case, and probably less. You'd be well-served to buy a bigger Progressive Dynamics (or similar) charger/converter - it will supply more charge current to your batteries, and will also prevent boiling them dry if you do happen to hook up to shore power (or leave your generator running too long). In your case, the bigger models would be the way to go since you'll be wanting to maximize the charging rate of your batteries.
>
> It's hard to know exactly how long your house batteries will last on a full charge, because we need to know their capacity, and we need to know how many watts you'll actually be drawing through that inverter. Having an inverter is certainly the right thing to do - it'll save a fortune compared to running the generator full-time... but if you're drawing (for example) 500 watts (40 amps) from your batteries to power the inverter, you're still going to be running your generator about 50% of the time. In other words, first try hard to minimize the amount of current you're going to need to draw through that inverter as the best way to optimize your system, then work on increasing the capacity of your system (storage and charging).
>
> I'd seriously suggest looking at a couple healthy solar panels, which can take up a good bit of the load (saving your a lot of generator run time). I've seen 100-125 watt panels coming down to really reasonable prices, but don't forget to factor in the cost of a quality controller (or you'll cause more problems than you solve with the solar panels). If your load can be kept in the 200-250 watt range, and you are working during daylight hours (and there are no clouds...) you might just about get away with not running the generator, assuming you can put $400-100 into the solar system.
>
> But if your Onan isn't at 100%, you'd better be making contingency plans right now, because you're going off-line pretty soon after it gives up the ghost. Some newer generators (including the newer Onans) are more efficient than the older ones, and lighter, too... both are important improvements.
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Plato seems wrong to me today.
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183648 is a reply to message #183645] |
Sat, 08 September 2012 15:21 |
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WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
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Senior Member |
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Man, that would be nice, living in the GMC full time. I could do it easily, with no hookups. Teri says no way. That says it all. Just spent the best part of two days fixing my air bag system. Not sure what I did but we are back to being able to air the bags up in nothing flat.
Living in the Northwest, solar sometimes does not get a chance to work til after lunch. We enjoy spending a month in Tillamook, in an rv park with no hookups. Sometimes the fog does not let the sun shine until 2 pm. Most days we can get almost a full charge with 300 watts of solar on the roof, and 4 6 volt batteries. We also spend a month in Quartzsite in January. Never need the generator there. If I was full time in the GMC I think I would find a way to have 6 6 volt batteries. A quality meter is important along with a good charge contoller. Neither are expensive unless you make them that way.
I carry a 1k Kipor with us in Tillamook and Quartzsite. Don't need it in Az. but have used it in Tillamook.
On demand water heater was a big improvement for us, dry camping. Our coach has an electric water heater and we had to run the Onan to get hot water. No more.
Propane refrigerator makes life good when dry camping.
Get rid of all of your incadescent and fluorescent lights, replacing them with quality LED lights.
Once again, wish I was a full time GMCer. Life can be very good when set up properly for dry camping.
Dan
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183720 is a reply to message #183638] |
Sun, 09 September 2012 03:40 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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the ragusa three battery tray on the passenger side front can take two 6 volt series into 12 volts, and one12 volt starting battery.
He also has a two battery tray for the drivers side for 2 more 6 volt series to 12 volt batteries but you have to take your drivers side wheel off to get the
batteries in there he states. This would give you 3 dual 6 volt banks that is about as good as it gets on my bucket list. I have the trays already now all i
need is another body to do the work while i drive people to Disneyland every day from LAX. We are so busy with the new cars world it is great.
http://www.ragusarv.com/
THe ragusa family are what barbara streisand sang her hit song about. Happy days are here again.
these people are great. down around irvine. ca.
Actually i do not really think they have ever met,
Barbara is writing a song about me, called you beady eyed greedy rat.
It should come out next spring.
I can't wait.
mickey
palm beach
Disneyland
anaheim, ca.
On Sep 8, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Mark wrote:
>
>
> Here's the rub... you can run your generator to charge your batteries (and to take the computer/satellite system load while it's running), but it's not putting anything close to 5,500 watts into the batteries. If you've got the original "buzz box" in your rig, it's not going to do more than 40 amps (~500 watts) best case, and probably less. You'd be well-served to buy a bigger Progressive Dynamics (or similar) charger/converter - it will supply more charge current to your batteries, and will also prevent boiling them dry if you do happen to hook up to shore power (or leave your generator running too long). In your case, the bigger models would be the way to go since you'll be wanting to maximize the charging rate of your batteries.
>
> It's hard to know exactly how long your house batteries will last on a full charge, because we need to know their capacity, and we need to know how many watts you'll actually be drawing through that inverter. Having an inverter is certainly the right thing to do - it'll save a fortune compared to running the generator full-time... but if you're drawing (for example) 500 watts (40 amps) from your batteries to power the inverter, you're still going to be running your generator about 50% of the time. In other words, first try hard to minimize the amount of current you're going to need to draw through that inverter as the best way to optimize your system, then work on increasing the capacity of your system (storage and charging).
>
> I'd seriously suggest looking at a couple healthy solar panels, which can take up a good bit of the load (saving your a lot of generator run time). I've seen 100-125 watt panels coming down to really reasonable prices, but don't forget to factor in the cost of a quality controller (or you'll cause more problems than you solve with the solar panels). If your load can be kept in the 200-250 watt range, and you are working during daylight hours (and there are no clouds...) you might just about get away with not running the generator, assuming you can put $400-100 into the solar system.
>
> But if your Onan isn't at 100%, you'd better be making contingency plans right now, because you're going off-line pretty soon after it gives up the ghost. Some newer generators (including the newer Onans) are more efficient than the older ones, and lighter, too... both are important improvements.
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183774 is a reply to message #183750] |
Sun, 09 September 2012 14:11 |
crash24
Messages: 79
Registered: February 2012
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Karma: 0
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Member |
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There is another solution that has not been touched on. Bill was using an 8D, a 140lb pain to move from the boat to the skiff to run his dive system. He was getting @ 30 minutes out of it between charges.
http://www.dynobattery.com/Spec8D.pdf
I put together 4 of these,
http://www.alliancerenewableenergy.com/Thunder-Sky-LiFeYPO4-Batteries_c3.htm
which weigh 25 lbs as a 12V battery. The discharge curve is very flat, with no Peukert effect, that you have with lead/acid. The voltage per cell stays above 3 until you hit the knee of the curve and then goes almost straight down. With lead, the voltage depends on the current draw, and quickly drops below the initial charge of 13V and keeps going down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert%27s_law
This battery will run the dive system for 90 minutes without even going below 13V.
I hope Bill does not read this because I see the price of 4 is $428 and I/he paid $500 for them. If you don't take them below 2.25V per cell, they will last from 7,000-10,000 cycles. I have a set of 20 x 40Ah in a scooter and there are quite a few Electric Powered S-10, Ford Rangers running around here daily, with 3+ years on their batteries. One guy has been overcharging them to 4.1V and running them down to 2.2V on his daily commute exceeds the Watts he needs. They are tough cells, as he has not killed one yet.
They are light, tough and have an almost flat discharge curve. The do require a sophisticated charger and to make them idiot proof, a Battery Management System (BMS). None of the truck guys have installed a BMS, they just check their cells for balance @ once a month.
I don't know how this compares to the cost of Trojan 6V batteries, but maybe the time has come to switch from lead for many applications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P02NhW6NkfA&feature=related
[Updated on: Sun, 09 September 2012 14:19] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183816 is a reply to message #183805] |
Mon, 10 September 2012 01:23 |
crash24
Messages: 79
Registered: February 2012
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Karma: 0
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Member |
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Matt,
The LiFePo4 TS cells are 2C which means a 100Ah cell will safely give you 200A until it hits 2.2V. I have built a 40Ah 12V battery for our aircraft, so I'm going to stuff it in the GMC and hope not to destroy it before my son catches me and puts it in the plane. I will use it as a starting battery and see how it cranks the 455? I will check the voltage drop and current draw. If it sucks more than 80A, I'll quit before I cook it. It cost me $212. A 40Ah battery will deliver that amperage at 13V until the entire 40Ah is used up. It does not drop to 11V like lead. I will have to do some math and see what size TS cells will equal a 225A "rated" lead/acid. Actually, being brain lazy, I will just call a knowledgeable guy tomorrow. But it will probably cost 2+X what lead does. I'm thinking about the weight saving and life cycle. Maybe I will cannibalize my scooter because I have 200Ah at 12V in it. Hmmmmm?
| Matt Colie wrote on Sun, 09 September 2012 20:10 |
Crash42,
I have no love for any kind of LA battery - be it flooded, Gel or AGM, but I paid less than 150$us for 2ea 225AH GC2s in 2008 and they are still at 80+% of capacity.
When those cells can compete with that, I might be interested, but 400+$us is my annual budget for GMC maintenance.
So, that change could only happen on year that no other maintenance beyond oil changes grease is required to keep the coach on the road. Next years money is already spent.
Not all of us have done well in the recent economy.
Matt
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183840 is a reply to message #183816] |
Mon, 10 September 2012 11:09 |
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WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
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Senior Member |
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I hope JT is looking at the information afforded him by some qualified folks.
I have the Ragusa trays in our coach, both sides. I see no way to get my batteries in and out, driver's side, without coming through the bottom. I give Teri a rope. She pulls from top, I push from bottom. This is rarely an issue as we check the fluid levels monthly and make sure they never get below top of plates. 4 6 volts, all up front, work great for us. But, if I was full timing I really think I would figure out a way to get 6 of these babies in there somewhere.
Last week, while in Detroit, I noticed Sam's was carrying two versions of the 6 volts. One advertised at 225 and the other 245 ah. 20 dollars difference in price. Both well below a bill. I think 70 and 90 bux.
On the photo site I have seen some creative ways folks have placed their 6 volts in the rear and still make sure they breathe well.
Bottom line, you can full time in the GMC and do what you wish without being dependant on the Onan so much. Set the coach up properly and as I always say, life is good.
Dan
who stole that saying from Arch's emails to me.
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183850 is a reply to message #183840] |
Mon, 10 September 2012 12:33 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Be careful before you buy the "big" ones.
The ones I found (and bought) at Sam's
were 6V, but the higher AH ones were
actually 8V!!! Not a good thing!!!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: gregg_dan@hotmail.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:09:53 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid
>
>
>
> I hope JT is looking at the information afforded him by some qualified folks.
> I have the Ragusa trays in our coach, both sides. I see no way to get my batteries in and out, driver's side, without coming through the bottom. I give Teri a rope. She pulls from top, I push from bottom. This is rarely an issue as we check the fluid levels monthly and make sure they never get below top of plates. 4 6 volts, all up front, work great for us. But, if I was full timing I really think I would figure out a way to get 6 of these babies in there somewhere.
> Last week, while in Detroit, I noticed Sam's was carrying two versions of the 6 volts. One advertised at 225 and the other 245 ah. 20 dollars difference in price. Both well below a bill. I think 70 and 90 bux.
> On the photo site I have seen some creative ways folks have placed their 6 volts in the rear and still make sure they breathe well.
> Bottom line, you can full time in the GMC and do what you wish without being dependant on the Onan so much. Set the coach up properly and as I always say, life is good.
> Dan
> who stole that saying from Arch's emails to me.
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
>
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183851 is a reply to message #183850] |
Mon, 10 September 2012 12:39 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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yep the 6 volts from costco, were a tight fit and very heavy
gene
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:33 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> Be careful before you buy the "big" ones.
> The ones I found (and bought) at Sam's
> were 6V, but the higher AH ones were
> actually 8V!!! Not a good thing!!!
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > From: gregg_dan@hotmail.com
> > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:09:53 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope JT is looking at the information afforded him by some qualified
> folks.
> > I have the Ragusa trays in our coach, both sides. I see no way to get my
> batteries in and out, driver's side, without coming through the bottom. I
> give Teri a rope. She pulls from top, I push from bottom. This is rarely an
> issue as we check the fluid levels monthly and make sure they never get
> below top of plates. 4 6 volts, all up front, work great for us. But, if I
> was full timing I really think I would figure out a way to get 6 of these
> babies in there somewhere.
> > Last week, while in Detroit, I noticed Sam's was carrying two versions
> of the 6 volts. One advertised at 225 and the other 245 ah. 20 dollars
> difference in price. Both well below a bill. I think 70 and 90 bux.
> > On the photo site I have seen some creative ways folks have placed their
> 6 volts in the rear and still make sure they breathe well.
> > Bottom line, you can full time in the GMC and do what you wish without
> being dependant on the Onan so much. Set the coach up properly and as I
> always say, life is good.
> > Dan
> > who stole that saying from Arch's emails to me.
> > --
> > Dan & Teri Gregg
> >
> >
> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] power planning for full-time work off the grid [message #183915 is a reply to message #183849] |
Mon, 10 September 2012 20:17 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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GENE,
I'M SORRY TO SHOUT BUT THIS IS THE SECOND TIME YOU'VE MADE THIS STATEMENT!
IF THE PHOTO YOU PROVIDED A LINK TO IS OF BATTERIES ON THE DRIVERS SIDE I'LL KISS YOUR "XXX" ANYWHERE, ANYTIME!
LOOK AT THE BLOODY PICTURE IT'S THE PASSENGER SIDE MATE!
LAST TIME I CHECKED DOUBLE TROUBLE THERE WAS A STEERING COLUMN ON THE DRIVERS SIDE!
REGARDS,
ROB M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
> I have the Ragusa trays in our coach, both sides. I see no way to get my
> batteries in and out, DRIVER'S side, without coming through the bottom.
TO MUCH CRAP :>)
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p45535-battery.html
changed all my batteries on the 26 (shown here) and the 23 --- all out the
top - front---, from Ragusa 3 batt trays.
used a battery strap and a good right arm (maybe a little board to slide
them up on)
JWID
gene
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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