Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Starter Problem ?? (Starter Problem)
| Starter Problem ?? [message #183432] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 19:55  |
Jerry Hartley
Messages: 17
Registered: May 2004
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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I appreciate the advice I received when I recently asked about replacing my ignition switch. After much reading and checking I don't think the problem is with the switch. Now I'm beginning to think the problem is not with the starter either.
Recap - Over the past few months my 76 Royale starter has been "clicking" occasionally when I turned the key to "Start". Always eventually started after tightening the nut on the solenoid and/or holding my mouth just right.
A few days ago I was unable to get past the "click" each time I turned the key to "Start".
Over the past few days I have:
Replaced a bad chassis battery courtesy of Walmart. Under warrranty, no charge, no hassle, no complaints. Still "clicks".
Original ground was daisy chained to the house battery negative battery post. Installed a new dedicated chassis battery ground cable. Still "clicks".
Used a screw driver to jump the two posts on the solenoid. Does not crank. Just sparks and "clicks".
Removed the starter and had it checked at the local auto parts store. They said it checked "Good". Reinstalled starter. Still "Clicks".
Used jumper cable to directly connect the negative battery post to the starter housing. Still "clicks".
Used jumper cable to connect the positive battery post to the positive bolt on the solenoid. Still "clicks".
Removed starter and used jumper cable to check starter. Appears to operate correctly. Runs smoothly. Gear moves out and back when starter starts and stops. Reinstalled starter. Still "clicks".
GMC was running normally when I moved it to my driveway 2 weeks ago. Checked the oil (Mobil1). It is clear, clean and full.
I guess I should check to see if I can turn the motor by hand. I don't know how it could have seized while sitting in my driveway for two weeks but I'm running out of things to check.
I would appreciate any and all advice on anything more to check and how to turn the motor by hand.
Thanks to all.
Jerry Hartley
Sequim, WA
1976 Royale
1977 Birchaven Cad500
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| Re: Starter Problem ?? [message #183447 is a reply to message #183432] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 21:35  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Jerry Hartley wrote on Thu, 06 September 2012 20:55 |
I appreciate the advice I received when I recently asked about replacing my ignition switch. After much reading and checking I don't think the problem is with the switch. Now I'm beginning to think the problem is not with the starter either.
Recap - Over the past few months my 76 Royale starter has been "clicking" occasionally when I turned the key to "Start". Always eventually started after tightening the nut on the solenoid and/or holding my mouth just right.
-A few days ago I was unable to get past the "click" each time I turned the key to "Start".
-Over the past few days I have:
* Replaced a bad chassis battery courtesy of Walmart. Under warrranty, no charge, no hassle, no complaints. Still "clicks".
* Original ground was daisy chained to the house battery negative battery post. Installed a new dedicated chassis battery ground cable. Still "clicks".
* Used a screw driver to jump the two posts on the solenoid. Does not crank. Just sparks and "clicks".
* Removed the starter and had it checked at the local auto parts store. They said it checked "Good". Reinstalled starter. Still "Clicks".
* Used jumper cable to directly connect the negative battery post to the starter housing. Still "clicks".
* Used jumper cable to connect the positive battery post to the positive bolt on the solenoid. Still "clicks".
* Removed starter and used jumper cable to check starter. Appears to operate correctly. Runs smoothly. Gear moves out and back when starter starts and stops. Reinstalled starter. Still "clicks".
* GMC was running normally when I moved it to my driveway 2 weeks ago. Checked the oil (Mobil1). It is clear, clean and full.
* I guess I should check to see if I can turn the motor by hand. I don't know how it could have seized while sitting in my driveway for two weeks but I'm running out of things to check.
-I would appreciate any and all advice on anything more to check and how to turn the motor by hand.
Thanks to all.
Jerry Hartley
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Jerry,
I kind of hate to tell you this, but this is sounds a lot like the common-mode failure of brushes worn to nubbins. With no load, the starter will spin, but as soon as it can grab a ring gear, she quits.
The Cad 500 uses the same starter doesn't it? My research says that it does to all the 425 installs. Why don't you try that one and then get a rebuild.
My recent experience (to be detailed at length at GMCES) has found that when these starters finally wear the brushes down, there is a lot to be done to get them ready to return to service.
Want to do a quick check?
Pull the starter out and stand it on its nose.
Remove the two tie bolts that are in back plate and carefully lift the back plate.
Can you see shoulders on all four brushes??
If No, put the back plate back on. It needs real fixing.
Want to know what the brushes are supposed to look like?
EBay - search for Brushs Delco 10MT.
It turns out that the 10MT Delco starter is a very robust piece. It was used in different versions from 1962 to 1995. The only thing special about the 1109027(455), 1108795(early 403) and 1109069(late 403) is the nose casting. Rebuilders supply the same number for all three of these.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Starter Problem ?? [message #183470 is a reply to message #183432] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 23:40 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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| Jerry Hartley wrote on Thu, 06 September 2012 17:55 |
I would appreciate any and all advice on anything more to check and how to turn the motor by hand.
Thanks to all.
Jerry Hartley
Sequim, WA
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I vote for a new starter. If it was frozen it would make a big grunt, not a click. The solenoid is clicking but the starter is not turning.
After Matt's starter story I replaced mine. $64 at NAPA. Wow. Its like a new... starter. (Watch it as that sucker is heavier than it looks and may be a bit slippery. I was putting my new one up, steadying it with one hand and fumbling for the bolt with my other and almost got it in the face.)
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ?? [message #183471 is a reply to message #183470] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 00:02 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I will side with George. Buy a new starter from O'schucks for $ 50. If it still clicks just take it back. Only takes a few minutes to put in as you know now ;)
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:40 PM, George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jerry Hartley wrote on Thu, 06 September 2012 17:55
>> I would appreciate any and all advice on anything more to check and how to turn the motor by hand.
>>
>> Thanks to all.
>>
>> Jerry Hartley
>> Sequim, WA
>
> I vote for a new starter. If it was frozen it would make a big grunt, not a click. The solenoid is clicking but the starter is not turning.
>
> After Matt's starter story I replaced mine. $64 at NAPA. Wow. Its like a new... starter. (Watch it as that sucker is heavier than it looks and may be a bit slippery. I was putting my new one up, steadying it with one hand and fumbling for the bolt with my other and almost got it in the face.)
> --
> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
> Best Wishes,
> George
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ?? [message #183482 is a reply to message #183471] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 05:14 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I also vote for the starter but more specifically the contacts in solenoid mounted on the starter. Also look closely at the Bendix gear teeth. It may not engaging the flywheel ring gear correctly. If it doesn't engage all the way the contacts never make and all you will hear is a click.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ?? [message #183486 is a reply to message #183482] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 06:13 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Jerry, to manually turn the engine over, remove the spark plugs, and
take a 1 1/16
socket to the front damper pully and turn the engine over. You really
don't need to remove the spark plugs but you will be working against
engine compression if you don't.
On 9/7/12, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> I also vote for the starter but more specifically the contacts in solenoid
> mounted on the starter. Also look closely at the Bendix gear teeth. It may
> not engaging the flywheel ring gear correctly. If it doesn't engage all the
> way the contacts never make and all you will hear is a click.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ?? [message #183489 is a reply to message #183486] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 06:57 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Didn;t have time to read all of this thread but if the starter is dragging, check the braided strap on the transmission mount. I have checked and found 2 73 coaches with the bolt threaded into the frame stripped out from the factory. Some UAW woorker must have had his air wrench turned up too high! The bolt looked fine until I put a wrench to it. The bolt turned freely, it was hammered too hard when it was installed. Without a good ground, the starter will drag-- I know because one of the coaches I found this on was mine! Put a wrench on the bolt to the frame, it is tight or stripped,
Jim Bounds
----------------------
________________________________
From: Bruce Hart <hartsgmc@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ??
Jerry, to manually turn the engine over, remove the spark plugs, and
take a 1 1/16
socket to the front damper pully and turn the engine over. You really
don't need to remove the spark plugs but you will be working against
engine compression if you don't.
On 9/7/12, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> I also vote for the starter but more specifically the contacts in solenoid
> mounted on the starter. Also look closely at the Bendix gear teeth. It may
> not engaging the flywheel ring gear correctly. If it doesn't engage all the
> way the contacts never make and all you will hear is a click.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ?? [message #183525 is a reply to message #183489] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 10:47 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Besides what Jim and Matt suggested have someone turn the key to start and hold it in the start position. Then you can bridge the 2 large starter terminals with a large screwdriver and see if it cranks. If it does the starter solenoid contact disk is worn.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: Starter Problem ?? [message #183578 is a reply to message #183432] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 18:05 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Try this. Its not to hard. Have someone crank the key and hold. Have yor meter on VOLTS. Check the voltage from one end of the POS or NEG cable to the other end while its LOADED. If you use the meter to check OHMs on a cable it can read low resistance with only one strand of copper left. So, this is a voltage drop test. If you're droping 10 volts WHILE UNDER LOAD the cable/part you're testing is bad. You can do this test for connections too. From the positive post to the clamp. Across solenoids etc. Do a votage test from the block to the negative post while cranking. Look up Scanner Danner on utube. He has videos on how to do a voltage drop test while cranking,,,,,GL,,,,PL
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| Re: Starter Problem ?? [message #183579 is a reply to message #183432] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 18:29 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Sir: I don`t know if it would work or not but if you had a battery tester
http://www.harborfreight.com/100-amp-6-volt-12-volt-battery-load-tester-90636.html
and tested the battery and see what you got then go the starter and remove the big + cable and put testor + there and testor - on the starter bracket or bolt and test again and compare difference. If none the problem is the starter, If there is a noticable difference the issue would be in the + cable, connection or a ground issue. It might isolate the problem?
| Jerry Hartley wrote on Thu, 06 September 2012 20:55 |
I appreciate the advice I received when I recently asked about replacing my ignition switch. After much reading and checking I don't think the problem is with the switch. Now I'm beginning to think the problem is not with the starter either.
Recap - Over the past few months my 76 Royale starter has been "clicking" occasionally when I turned the key to "Start". Always eventually started after tightening the nut on the solenoid and/or holding my mouth just right.
A few days ago I was unable to get past the "click" each time I turned the key to "Start".
Over the past few days I have:
Replaced a bad chassis battery courtesy of Walmart. Under warrranty, no charge, no hassle, no complaints. Still "clicks".
Original ground was daisy chained to the house battery negative battery post. Installed a new dedicated chassis battery ground cable. Still "clicks".
Used a screw driver to jump the two posts on the solenoid. Does not crank. Just sparks and "clicks".
Removed the starter and had it checked at the local auto parts store. They said it checked "Good". Reinstalled starter. Still "Clicks".
Used jumper cable to directly connect the negative battery post to the starter housing. Still "clicks".
Used jumper cable to connect the positive battery post to the positive bolt on the solenoid. Still "clicks".
Removed starter and used jumper cable to check starter. Appears to operate correctly. Runs smoothly. Gear moves out and back when starter starts and stops. Reinstalled starter. Still "clicks".
GMC was running normally when I moved it to my driveway 2 weeks ago. Checked the oil (Mobil1). It is clear, clean and full.
I guess I should check to see if I can turn the motor by hand. I don't know how it could have seized while sitting in my driveway for two weeks but I'm running out of things to check.
I would appreciate any and all advice on anything more to check and how to turn the motor by hand.
Thanks to all.
Jerry Hartley
Sequim, WA
1976 Royale
1977 Birchaven Cad500
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ?? [message #183744 is a reply to message #183579] |
Sun, 09 September 2012 09:26 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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And if you don't have a tester, hit the local AutoZone or Advance Auto. Both have load testers which they will happily use for you. In hopes of course of pedling a battery.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Charles Boyd <covered-wagon@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problem ??
Sir: I don`t know if it would work or not but if you had a battery tester
http://www.harborfreight.com/100-amp-6-volt-12-volt-battery-load-tester-90636.html
and tested the battery and see what you got then go the starter and remove the big + cable and put testor + there and testor - on the starter bracket or bolt and test again and compare difference. If none the problem is the starter, If there is a noticable difference the issue would be in the + cable, connection or a ground issue. It might isolate the problem?
Jerry Hartley wrote on Thu, 06 September 2012 20:55
> I appreciate the advice I received when I recently asked about replacing my ignition switch. After much reading and checking I don't think the problem is with the switch. Now I'm beginning to think the problem is not with the starter either.
>
> Recap - Over the past few months my 76 Royale starter has been "clicking" occasionally when I turned the key to "Start". Always eventually started after tightening the nut on the solenoid and/or holding my mouth just right.
>
> A few days ago I was unable to get past the "click" each time I turned the key to "Start".
>
> Over the past few days I have:
>
> Replaced a bad chassis battery courtesy of Walmart. Under warrranty, no charge, no hassle, no complaints. Still "clicks".
>
> Original ground was daisy chained to the house battery negative battery post. Installed a new dedicated chassis battery ground cable. Still "clicks".
>
> Used a screw driver to jump the two posts on the solenoid. Does not crank. Just sparks and "clicks".
>
> Removed the starter and had it checked at the local auto parts store. They said it checked "Good". Reinstalled starter. Still "Clicks".
>
> Used jumper cable to directly connect the negative battery post to the starter housing. Still "clicks".
>
> Used jumper cable to connect the positive battery post to the positive bolt on the solenoid. Still "clicks".
>
> Removed starter and used jumper cable to check starter. Appears to operate correctly. Runs smoothly. Gear moves out and back when starter starts and stops. Reinstalled starter. Still "clicks".
>
> GMC was running normally when I moved it to my driveway 2 weeks ago. Checked the oil (Mobil1). It is clear, clean and full.
>
> I guess I should check to see if I can turn the motor by hand. I don't know how it could have seized while sitting in my driveway for two weeks but I'm running out of things to check.
>
> I would appreciate any and all advice on anything more to check and how to turn the motor by hand.
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> Jerry Hartley
> Sequim, WA
> 1976 Royale
> 1977 Birchaven Cad500
--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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