Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly)
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182018 is a reply to message #182013] |
Mon, 27 August 2012 20:03   |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Back in the day (late 70's thru the 80's) when I ran alcohol funny
cars and dragsters for lots fun and very little profit, they were
methanol powered as fuel. It may be clean and relatively inexpensive,
but it is corrosive to metal parts of the wrong material ( mostly
aluminum) and rubber componets (Viton and some other rubbers). Every
week weekend when we were done racing we drained all the fuel out of
the system including the tank, blew the lines out and put mineral oil
in the fuel pump, barrel valve and injectors on the hat and manifold
to protect them from corrosion. Methanol is also very hygroscopic and
we would have to check the fuel with a hygrometer to insure that it
had the correct specific gravity and had not picked up too much
water. Made the engine run real lazy with no power, water doesn't
burn well.
Getting back to Mr Zubrin article, his testing was less that
scientific and long term to check for any and all problems in the
entire fuel system to surface. I have no idea on what the difference
is between the regular GM vehicle and an E85 rated vehicle, but you
can bet it is more than an 47 cent seal. You can run more compression
and spark lead, but you also have to run more fuel to get the same
power. We were jetted more (larger jets) than the Top gas cars. We
ran 30 to 40 percent fuel than the gas cars. I don't see a 40%
improvement when a Cobalt gets better than 25 MPG from the factory (24
city 33 Hwy)
Could we run today's vehicles on methanol, and I would say yes with
reservations. The Technology already exist in the auto industry to
run on E85 or maybe E100, but for vehicles on the road today including
out coaches it would not cost effective IMHO. What do we say on the
crapohol that everyone runs at one time or another in our coach? With
E10 we lose 10% fuel milage. My coach loves real gas and I do run the
premium stuff when I am out west in the mountains. It makes a big
difference. It would also need to be available at all gas stations,
as E85 is limited on where you can buy it.
Any other out their, chime in with your thoughts!
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 Buskirk 30' Stretch
1975 Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
On Aug 27, 2012, at 7:48 PM, dave silva wrote:
>
>
> Hey guys, I've been tied up with real life lately, not two minutes
> to rub together but iran into this article on methanol as fuel and
> I need to hear from some smart car guy if there is fatal flaw in
> this guys logic.
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
>
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
> 1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182029 is a reply to message #182013] |
Mon, 27 August 2012 20:53 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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The author of that article doesnt have a clue about the heat value of various burning liquids.
Gasoline has 20,400 BTU per pound.
Methanol has 9,800 BTU per pound.
Ethanol has 12,800 BTU per pound.
Even taking in account that the alcohols are about 8% denser than gasoline it means that gasoline has twice the heat value of methanol. And it is the heat of combustion that drives the pistons.
As to the $1.32 per gallon price of methanol he is also totally overlooking the road taxes that states and Federal govt. would be adding if it is burnt for over the road vehicles.
California is 68 cents. Colorado is about 40 cents.
Yes, methanol can be used alone as can ethanol.
Does any GMC owner want to try straight methanol or straight ethanol in their motorhome? You think you have vapor lock problems now with 10% ethanol. Good luck with 100%.
Emery Stora
On Aug 27, 2012, at 5:48 PM, dave silva <admin@oldrv.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hey guys, I've been tied up with real life lately, not two minutes to rub together but iran into this article on methanol as fuel and I need to hear from some smart car guy if there is fatal flaw in this guys logic.
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
>
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
> 1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182074 is a reply to message #182029] |
Tue, 28 August 2012 05:59 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I don't know, that article led me to others by T. Boone Pickens and the point of it that it's a true alternative that competes with OPEC oil and is completely domestic.
The $1.32 price is in 55 gallon drums deliverd to the average race track. Total state and federal taxes is about $1.00 so it would be very competitive with gasoline for the cars that could benefit from it.
But it only has to be slightly competitive to be a game changer if the EPA would free people to experiment with it.
In his other article he discusses the lower power but still claims the cost per miles is better.
To really connect the dots read T. Boones article in the same pub.
i am not that conservative but I don't think the National Review is full of crap.
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182158 is a reply to message #182013] |
Tue, 28 August 2012 16:54 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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While reading these threads about how alcohol (ethanol, methanol, etc) is the worst thing to ever be used in an internal combustion engine, one thing I don't understand is why you would use alcohol rather than gasoline in a drag/funny car where you are trying to go as fast as possible.
Put another way, if alcohol fuels have less energy than gasoline and produce less power than gasoline, why would people like Powerjon (GMC content) use it in a vehicle in which he is trying to make as much power as he can? Wouldn't John have been better off using gasoline because, as Emery says "Even taking in account that the alcohols are about 8% denser than gasoline it means that gasoline has twice the heat value of methanol. And it is the heat of combustion that drives the pistons. ". Something just doesn't seem right.
I'm really confused now!
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182165 is a reply to message #182158] |
Tue, 28 August 2012 17:17 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Somewhere in the foggy recesses of my long-ago memory,
there resides the thought that maybe alcohol isn't QUITE
as hazardous as gasoline??? Flame is much cooler but
almost invisible??? I think that is why methanol is used
in Indy and Formula racing.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Temp nr Omaha, NE ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: rheller@cfl.rr.com
> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:54:54 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly)
>
>
>
> While reading these threads about how alcohol (ethanol, methanol, etc) is the worst thing to ever be used in an internal combustion engine, one thing I don't understand is why you would use alcohol rather than gasoline in a drag/funny car where you are trying to go as fast as possible.
>
> Put another way, if alcohol fuels have less energy than gasoline and produce less power than gasoline, why would people like Powerjon (GMC content) use it in a vehicle in which he is trying to make as much power as he can? Wouldn't John have been better off using gasoline because, as Emery says "Even taking in account that the alcohols are about 8% denser than gasoline it means that gasoline has twice the heat value of methanol. And it is the heat of combustion that drives the pistons. ". Something just doesn't seem right.
>
> I'm really confused now!
> --
> Bob Heller
> 1974 X-Canyonlands 26ft
> Winter Springs FL
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182166 is a reply to message #182158] |
Tue, 28 August 2012 17:31 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| bobby5832708 wrote on Tue, 28 August 2012 17:54 |
While reading these threads about how alcohol (ethanol, methanol, etc) is the worst thing to ever be used in an internal combustion engine, one thing I don't understand is why you would use alcohol rather than gasoline in a drag/funny car where you are trying to go as fast as possible.
Put another way, if alcohol fuels have less energy than gasoline and produce less power than gasoline, why would people like Powerjon (GMC content) use it in a vehicle in which he is trying to make as much power as he can? Wouldn't John have been better off using gasoline because, as Emery says "Even taking in account that the alcohols are about 8% denser than gasoline it means that gasoline has twice the heat value of methanol. And it is the heat of combustion that drives the pistons. ". Something just doesn't seem right.
I'm really confused now!
|
Bob,
You confusion is understandable.
The real reason is that neat methanol is about 120 octane (motor).
As to the fire safety, it may burn a little cooler in air until it heats and boils (that happens at a lower temperature than gasoline), but the flame is not visible in sunlight.
The only really good thing is that water will extinguish and alcohol fire very easily.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182167 is a reply to message #182166] |
Tue, 28 August 2012 17:51 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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In my previous comment, I forgot to mention,
as Matt did below, that water will quickly
extinguish an alcohol fire (dilutes AND cools)
whereas water will simply SPREAD a gasoline
fire everywhere!
VERY important in a race track environment
where crashes are common!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Temp nr Omaha, NE ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:31:11 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly)
>
> Bob,
>
> You confusion is understandable.
>
> The real reason is that neat methanol is about 120 octane (motor).
>
> As to the fire safety, it may burn a little cooler in air until it heats and boils (that happens at a lower temperature than gasoline), but the flame is not visible in sunlight.
> The only really good thing is that water will extinguish an alcohol fire very easily.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182193 is a reply to message #182013] |
Tue, 28 August 2012 20:21 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I may of missed it, but who did the test? Reviewed? Repeatable? Is the vehicle 'driveable'?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: dave silva <admin@oldrv.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 7:48 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly)
Hey guys, I've been tied up with real life lately, not two minutes to rub together but iran into this article on methanol as fuel and I need to hear from some smart car guy if there is fatal flaw in this guys logic.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
--
Dave & Ellen Silva
1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182249 is a reply to message #182018] |
Wed, 29 August 2012 07:47 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Thought? I think it wise for all of us to watch the EPA, who are asking for comment on dropping the mandatory renewable fuel requirements, as far as they relate to corn based ethanol, due to the corn shortage from drought. I live in chicken country (more chickens disassembled in Hall County, GA than anyplace else) and they chicken folks are soliciting everyone's input to the EPA about this. It's probably worth 15 - 20 censt a pound for your Sunday dinner mainstay.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: John Wright <powerjon@chartermi.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly)
Any other out their, chime in with your thoughts!
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 Buskirk 30' Stretch
1975 Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
On Aug 27, 2012, at 7:48 PM, dave silva wrote:
>
>
> Hey guys, I've been tied up with real life lately, not two minutes
> to rub together but iran into this article on methanol as fuel and
> I need to hear from some smart car guy if there is fatal flaw in
> this guys logic.
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
>
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314369/legalize-methanol-robert-zubrin
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
> 1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly) [message #182269 is a reply to message #182158] |
Wed, 29 August 2012 11:15 |
Ron77
Messages: 91
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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We ran an Alcohol (Methanol) fueled unblown front engine dragster at
Nostalgia events for 7-8 years here in SoCal. One of the power producing
aspects of running Alcohol is that you can run much higher compression, like
our 16 to 1. Our OEM style Chevrolet 23 degree heads had cnc'd combustion
chambers and the pistons were digitized to allow room for flame travel but
not much else. If we didn't index the spark plug electrodes, the piston
would close the gap. We made about 800 HP with a 406 engine. We ran as fast
as 182 mph weighing about 1500 pounds. Guys running similar engines with
cylinder heads that have non-OEM valve angles and runner location are
pushing 900 HP. No unblown gasoline engine can come close to those numbers.
But we used a lot more fuel than we would have running gasoline and out here
Alcohol costs way more than gasoline at retail outlets. I don't know the
drum cost but at the racetrack it has been around $5.00 per gallon and from
race shops it's even more.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob Heller
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:55 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] methanol for cars ? non GMC (mostly)
While reading these threads about how alcohol (ethanol, methanol, etc) is
the worst thing to ever be used in an internal combustion engine, one thing
I don't understand is why you would use alcohol rather than gasoline in a
drag/funny car where you are trying to go as fast as possible.
Put another way, if alcohol fuels have less energy than gasoline and produce
less power than gasoline, why would people like Powerjon (GMC content) use
it in a vehicle in which he is trying to make as much power as he can?
Wouldn't John have been better off using gasoline because, as Emery says
"Even taking in account that the alcohols are about 8% denser than gasoline
it means that gasoline has twice the heat value of methanol. And it is the
heat of combustion that drives the pistons. ". Something just doesn't seem
right.
I'm really confused now!
--
Bob Heller
1974 X-Canyonlands 26ft
Winter Springs FL
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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